Zak Smith
Member
I think any of the 5.56-sized assault rifles that have folding stocks (the M4 cannot) should meet the overall length requirement when SBR'd. Terminal effectiveness can be addressed by ammo or caliber choice.
Compact Rifle Requirements
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Any SBR .308 users of the Saiga, H&K or FAL want to chime in on their experiences with the platform?
The up-coming Keltec RFB is the only thing I can think of which is available to us here in the US (or will be soon) that might fit the requirements. The Chinese and various other Asian countries have some interesting bullpup concepts which would likely also work, but they're not available to us at all (and use hokey calibers).
Failing that, maybe a custom M1 carbine with a .30 carbine wildcat of some sort in a bullpup stock (travor). I don't know what kind of pressures the action can withstand, though, so...
Failing that, maybe a custom M1 carbine with a .30 carbine wildcat of some sort in a bullpup stock (travor). I don't know what kind of pressures the action can withstand, though, so...
MassMark
Member
Somewhere in my crates of photos, I have some of me with my long sold HK51S. It was, (and still is in someone else's collection), an awesome weapon. I needed the money to fund an extended stay in Africa and the deal was too good to pass up, so off it went. I remember spending $500.00 on the HK91 and had the conversion done for around the same dough. God I miss the 80's...
Flemming converted mine to a 12.5" with the wide MP5 front end. I understand 8" models were available, but I can't imagine it really. The 51S was a handfull - especially in full auto, but it was quite a hoot to shoot. 300-yard shots in SA were no trouble at all - center mass all day. Things got much more loose in FA, but I do remember making hits from a benchrest out to 500 on a full sized silhouette, using the then new fangled Aimpoint, (I still have that around here somewhere). I had a collapsible and a fixed stock and found the fixed did not have the "cool factor" but was much more realistic for accurate fire, (at least for me).
Standing next to this gun would feel like the air was being sucked from your body and the muzzle flash completely overwhelmed the flash suppresor. Even in daylight, muzzle flash was stunning - at dusk or at night it was surreal. I had a friend who had his hand slide off the forend during a mag dump - how he did not shoot his hand was beyond me, but his hand went forward of the muzzle, missing his digits, but tearing up his hand with burns an concussion - he wasn't right for weeks...
I can't fathom shooting this gun from inside a vehicle....
I can't see it being a practical combat weapon, but hey - what do I know?
Flemming converted mine to a 12.5" with the wide MP5 front end. I understand 8" models were available, but I can't imagine it really. The 51S was a handfull - especially in full auto, but it was quite a hoot to shoot. 300-yard shots in SA were no trouble at all - center mass all day. Things got much more loose in FA, but I do remember making hits from a benchrest out to 500 on a full sized silhouette, using the then new fangled Aimpoint, (I still have that around here somewhere). I had a collapsible and a fixed stock and found the fixed did not have the "cool factor" but was much more realistic for accurate fire, (at least for me).
Standing next to this gun would feel like the air was being sucked from your body and the muzzle flash completely overwhelmed the flash suppresor. Even in daylight, muzzle flash was stunning - at dusk or at night it was surreal. I had a friend who had his hand slide off the forend during a mag dump - how he did not shoot his hand was beyond me, but his hand went forward of the muzzle, missing his digits, but tearing up his hand with burns an concussion - he wasn't right for weeks...
I can't fathom shooting this gun from inside a vehicle.... I can't see it being a practical combat weapon, but hey - what do I know?
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I can barely afford the gas for the truck I have now
I actually kind of like that effect. Since the role I was thinking of would make this mostly a reactive/defensive weapon with a little extra bite, I definitely want people on the receiving end to feel like Thor's hammer is coming at them.
However, I agree that full auto is probably too much. I was thinking more along the lines of a semi-auto SBR.
Since the driver is there to drive, I would think anything beyond a pistol would be part of the "bail out kit".
Couple folks who discussed that subject with me said anything bigger than a small pistol caliber SMG just got in the way.
When I had a need for a long gun I was alone in the vehicle, so it went into the passenger footwell where I could reach it if needed. Not great in an accident though, which is why I would recommend some sort of gun rack if available.
Getting in and out of vehicles in full gear is a pain in the butt, and I do not know how guys manage it in full armor and helmets... Whole lot of practice and a fair amount of force I guess.
Couple folks who discussed that subject with me said anything bigger than a small pistol caliber SMG just got in the way.
When I had a need for a long gun I was alone in the vehicle, so it went into the passenger footwell where I could reach it if needed. Not great in an accident though, which is why I would recommend some sort of gun rack if available.
Getting in and out of vehicles in full gear is a pain in the butt, and I do not know how guys manage it in full armor and helmets... Whole lot of practice and a fair amount of force I guess.
MassMark
Member
Bartholomew Roberts said:
Agreed. It was very useable in SA. I'm not sure if Vector makes one, (I think they make a 33), but with a JLD PTR and a trip to Azex, ORF or another builder, (not sure if Flemming is still at it), it can be done for a decent price, (by today's standards). I can't remember the name, but there's builder from Virgina, (I think) that can take a 91, or a PTR and convert it to a 51S length HK 21...Now that would be something. A belt fed SMG length 7.62x51. I handled one at a gun show and was truly amazed....
otomik
Member
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I like the AR series; but the problem with all of the AR variants is that the buffer tube means that the stock cannot fold and so they can never be as short as a folder. A 12" AR10 would be too long for what I have in mind.
An AR pistol works fine lengthwise (as does an AK pistol); but doesn't have a stock - which limits its effective range to about 50-100m.
An AR pistol works fine lengthwise (as does an AK pistol); but doesn't have a stock - which limits its effective range to about 50-100m.
Quiet
Member
Have you checked out the Kel-Tec PLR-16/SU-16D?
Get a PLR-16, submit Form 1, & add SU-16D stock once you are approved or submit Form 4 & get a SU-16D direct.
Vector Arms V-51 SBR or V-53 SBR with collapsable stock might fit your criteria.
Get a PLR-16, submit Form 1, & add SU-16D stock once you are approved or submit Form 4 & get a SU-16D direct.
Vector Arms V-51 SBR or V-53 SBR with collapsable stock might fit your criteria.
Nameless_Hobo
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If you're looking for a weapon, a real weapon, which you intend the military to use, .308 is pretty much not an option.
If they're to adopt it, it will have to be 5.56, take AR magazine, and have at least a 14.5 inch barrel, to get the round up to useable velocity.
Olympic Arms makes an upper reciever that has the buffer tube across the top of the gun, rather than out the back.
It's not going to be useful strapped like that. It'll just be in the way.
Now if you're going to use it, for SHTF or whatever, I agree, get the SU16.
If they're to adopt it, it will have to be 5.56, take AR magazine, and have at least a 14.5 inch barrel, to get the round up to useable velocity.
Olympic Arms makes an upper reciever that has the buffer tube across the top of the gun, rather than out the back.
It's not going to be useful strapped like that. It'll just be in the way.
Now if you're going to use it, for SHTF or whatever, I agree, get the SU16.
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