I used to shoot a pile of 50 grain Blitz bullets before groundhogs went on the endangered species list here in WV,and they weren't the most accurate bullets out there.I shot them in 222,223 and 22-250,and they all had fliers.I eventually started shooting the 52 and 53 grain Matchkings and they were a lot more consistent.I didn't see what twist rate you're running in your Fireball,but my experience with 22 cal. bullets has taught me that it can make a big difference.I have a 223 that's pretty accurate,usually 5 shots in the .2's and .3's at 100 yards.It's a 9 twist,and it really shines with 69 grain tipped Matchkings.With the current shortage of everything,I decided to save my remaining TMK's for competition and wanted to work up a load that used the 52 grain match bullets that I have plenty of.The groups I shot with them resembled what you're getting,probably a bit worse.I tried several things but it was a no go.I have the headspace on that rifle very tight.A standard full length die/shell holder gives a tiny bit of shoulder bump,but I neck size with a Lee collet die,and doing that has helped with my runout,and it's a simpler setup that a bushing die/mandrel setup.I used to fight bullet runout a lot in this rifle when I was using the Lee seating die that came with the collet die,and it was bad.I would often have one or two out of twenty that would exceed .010".I have a Hornady concentricity tool and I would try to straighten them with the screw thingy on the tool,thinking that if I got them straight they would shoot better.22 caliber bullets in unturned brass don't like to be pushed around,and I was making a bad situation worse by trying.I spent a few dollars on a L.E. Wilson seating die,and it was all I needed for runout prevention.I recently seated 10 rounds with the Wilson die and 10 rounds with the Lee die,and measured the runout and shot what the two dies produced in a head to head comparison.The worst round for the Wilson die was .002.The Lee die had one that was .009 and one that was .011.The two 10 shot groups were mostly the same size and shape,except for a couple of fliers on the Lee die,which were about half an inch or so out of the group.I think a few thousandths will still shoot well,but when you get over .005,bad things will happen.The runout rabbit hole can go a long way and cost a lot of money,sometimes with no improvement on how a rifle shoots.Make sure the bullet and the twist rate are ok with each other and maybe try a chamber seating die before you burn up a bunch of money,and maybe try a simpler sizing method.
Concentricity Vs Headspace
- Thread starter MKnarr
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I don't measure rim thickness either. And neither do these Smallbore Prone National Champs
Like them, I find good match ammunition and shoot it. You know, the old BSA rifles are capable of excellent accuracy. I did this one
Eley came out to the Wa Ke De range and explained they controlled about 150 measurements and parameters on their match ammunition, and the only way a shooter could know what lot was the best was to put holes in a target. They recommended their indoor range in Texas.
I am going to say, having weighed enough 168 SMK's, and 190 SMK's, I did find the occasional light bullet. Never say never.
You stated you have tried a lot of different bullets and powders and are still not getting the accuracy you want. Maybe it is time for a new barrel, new chambering job, new scope, and new mounts.
I have tried the berger bullets and the rem primers at one point also the 63 grain Sierra match bullets. Unfortunately I wasn't thinking about concentricity at that point. Once I get that solved I may have to start over.
I know this isn't rimfire and hope I don't catch heck for it but. I started shooting Benchrest matches in 2004. It started with long range silhouette from 65 to 200 meters and I quickly found out, this isn't position shooting and the quality of ammo meant a lot more. On the rimfire forum I belonged to I heard about the improvements in weight and rim thickness. Well after a lot of money and time, I discovered that there is no correlation between weight or rim thickness and velocity spread and if you aren't affecting that what are you doing. No one ever had an answer for that. In rimfire, the biggest difference in weight is the bullet and weighing a complete round is useless when the powder and primer are the most important part of the round. I also found that the cheap ammo and the most expensive ammo all have the same weight spread and they certainly don't shoot the same. I finally learned the right way to test different lots match ammo, and it isn't the way most test, and selected lots have allowed me to win 45 of 60 long range matches and a total of 51 100 yard group matches and 50 yard ARA local matches.
I only have 6 bullets left and I will weight them and a about 200 Hornady 50gr VMax I can weigh to see what they are like. In tests, the V Max never did as well as the Sierra. I have tried the epoxy trick on the seating stem of my Redding die but haven't had the chance to try it yet this morning.
I did try straightening and that didn't seem to help. The one group I showed tell me that concentricity is my problem and Head space isn't.
I know this isn't rimfire and hope I don't catch heck for it but. I started shooting Benchrest matches in 2004. It started with long range silhouette from 65 to 200 meters and I quickly found out, this isn't position shooting and the quality of ammo meant a lot more. On the rimfire forum I belonged to I heard about the improvements in weight and rim thickness. Well after a lot of money and time, I discovered that there is no correlation between weight or rim thickness and velocity spread and if you aren't affecting that what are you doing. No one ever had an answer for that. In rimfire, the biggest difference in weight is the bullet and weighing a complete round is useless when the powder and primer are the most important part of the round. I also found that the cheap ammo and the most expensive ammo all have the same weight spread and they certainly don't shoot the same. I finally learned the right way to test different lots match ammo, and it isn't the way most test, and selected lots have allowed me to win 45 of 60 long range matches and a total of 51 100 yard group matches and 50 yard ARA local matches.
I only have 6 bullets left and I will weight them and a about 200 Hornady 50gr VMax I can weigh to see what they are like. In tests, the V Max never did as well as the Sierra. I have tried the epoxy trick on the seating stem of my Redding die but haven't had the chance to try it yet this morning.
I did try straightening and that didn't seem to help. The one group I showed tell me that concentricity is my problem and Head space isn't.
I would agree.
After many days weighing 22 rimfire rounds, I swore I would never weigh another round but because of the concern here about bullet weight I thought what the heck. So I went through my stash of .22 bullets ( and found I had more Sierra bullets than I thought0 here is what I found. I have an Ohous 505 balance beam scale I bought in 1964 for $28.00. If I weigh a bullet 10 times it weighs the same time every time. I can guestimate to the .05 grains.
It seems no matter what bullet you use they all have a couple of tenths variation. If I was really concerned about bullet weight, I would be more concerned about Hornady than Sierra.
On one round with the epoxy trick on the seating stem I got less than .001 run out. As I get more time I'll see if it really helps or that one round was a fluke. Still won't get the forstner seating die until some time next month.
I have 200 rounds of 9mm to load for a friend and wife has a doctor's appointment tomorrow so I'll have to find time to continue my concentricity experiments.
It seems no matter what bullet you use they all have a couple of tenths variation. If I was really concerned about bullet weight, I would be more concerned about Hornady than Sierra.
On one round with the epoxy trick on the seating stem I got less than .001 run out. As I get more time I'll see if it really helps or that one round was a fluke. Still won't get the forstner seating die until some time next month.
I have 200 rounds of 9mm to load for a friend and wife has a doctor's appointment tomorrow so I'll have to find time to continue my concentricity experiments.
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