Confused About 38 spl. Loading Data-Newbie Alert!

[jambie]

Confused About 38 spl. Loading Data-Newbie Alert! Now With Pics!

I'm going to load my first handgun cartridge, using Hornady's 125 gr. XTP JHP. I've got reasons which I won't go into, but that's the bullet I'm gonna use for now. I've got three loading manuals - Hornady, Lyman, and Speer - all the newest editions - and I'm getting some conflicting info. First of all, as a disclaimer, the Speer manual lists data for the Speer 125 gr. Gold Dot JHP bullet, but the Hornady and Lyman list data for the exact bullet I'm using. I crosschecked all three manuals for powders, and came up with four that are common to the Lym and Hrn, and two in common with the Spr. Now for the data:

(H)ORNADY (L)YMAN (S)PEER

Bullseye H4.5 gr./800fps min L3.2 / 568 min S4.5 / 914 min/max
H5.0 / 900 max L4.4 / 860 max S4.5/914 +P start
H5.3/950 +P L5.0/920 +P S4.8/1021 +P max

Clays H4.8 / 800 min L3.2 / 719
H 5.5/950 max L3.8/870 max
H5.8/ 1000+P

WIN 231 H4.8/800 min L3.9/589 min
H5.4/900 max L 5.1/820 max
H5.7/950 +P L5.4/882 +P

Unique H5.1/800 min L4.0/498 min S5.7/980 min/max
H5.3/850 max L6.0/895 max S5.7/980 +P start
H5.6/900 +P S6.0/1082 +P max
H5.8/950 +P

Now, a couple things: Speer says that their max loads for normal pressure 38 spl loads should not be reduced, as there would be some question whether there'd be enough pressure to get a 125gr. JHP bullet out of the barrel, and their standard psi max loads coincide with their starting +P loads. Lyman's start loads have velocities down around 570-600 fps? Lyman also lists Bullseye as the most accurate powder.

I'll be using these for practice primarily from two different +P rated S&W snubs, a 642 and a 36, but will also use them in my 4" model 27. My inclination is to use Bullseye powder and Hornady data, as I'll be using their bullet. One other difference: Hrn lists Win WSP primers, and Lym and SPr list CCI 500's.

Anyway, any suggestions on rectifying these differences in powders, charges, and very different min/max loads would be appreciated. Again, I'm just looking for reliable, standard pressure loads for the Hornady 125 gr. XTP JHP.

Thanks in advance, and....Cheers!
Tom

 

[Sniderman]

First, shoot whatever shoots best in your piece,

Having said that, I load .38 for my Airweight with the same bullet you're using.
I push the Hornaday XTP/JHP with 4.5 grains of Unique, it also shoots well in my 6" bbl security six. I've never chronographed the load but it works well for me.

PS. I like the lyman book the best of the ones you've mentioned.

 

[jambie]

Thanks for the quick reply, Sniderman. One thing I'm initially trying to figure out is which powder to try first, so that's one vote for Unique...

Regards,
Tom

 

[Walkalong]

Seemingly conflicting data can be confusing as well as aggravating. I have and use Speer manuals, and like them. I would have no qualms using the Speer data, but in your case I would go with the Hornady manual for now. After all, it's their bullet.

The Speer manual says not to reduce the loads due to the small possibility of jacket separation in the bore. While that was a real possibility with their old half jacketed bullet (No longer offered), it is not nearly as apt to happen with normal jacketed bullets.

As always with light loads, make sure the bullet (jacket and all) makes it out of the barrel before firing another round.

Sounds bad, but the danger is minimal with any reasonable load.

The Winchester primers are a hair hotter than the CCI's. Unique works great, as well as other medium burn rate powders like AA #5, True Blue or N340.

 

[oneounceload]

Unique, Universal Clays, Clays and Bullseye are all good powders for the 38. Since you are using Hornady bullets, following their data would not be a bad thing - they did the pressure testing and load development after all

 

[Ol` Joe]

The Speer manual says not to reduce the loads due to the small possibility of jacket separation in the bore. While that was a real possibility with their old half jacketed bullet (No longer offered), it is not nearly as apt to happen with normal jacketed bullets.

Their warning in this case is for the Gold Dot bullets in heavier weights. They claim a bullet may stick in the bore if they are not driven fast enough. This is a separate warning from the old one on jacket separation.
I`ve seen this warning too and don`t really understand it except for the fact the Gold Dot is plated not jacketed. The Gold Dot seems to behave different then a normal cup & core bullet for some reason in Speers eyes. Their new(er) manuals data for the 45acp has a warning against using their data for jacketed 230gr RN with the 230 gr GD.

 

[rfwobbly]

Although close enough to work with, the Speer Gold Dot does not exactly equate to the Hornady XTP. Therefore, as long as you have it, I'd have to go with the info in the Hornady book. Like Mr Along said, it IS their bullet.

Primer choice is going to make the least difference of all the variables. WSP are great, just work up your load with those and keep buying them.

Any number of powders will work well for you. Unique has been a "standard" for a century, but can be extremely dirty at low loads. I'd probably choose the Win231 (aka Hodgdon HP-38) as being a more useful powder to have around.

As a newbie, keep your loads "box stock" so that you can concentrate on your reloading process. Keep it simple and straight forward and you'll be a lot safer.

 

[jambie]

I posted this thread on another forum, and one reply suggested there are 3 different Clays powders. Hornady specifies "Clays Universal", but Lyman just says "Clays". I don't want a dirty-burning powder, and I've read that Clays is fairly clean, so....

 

[Walkalong]

Their warning in this case is for the Gold Dot bullets in heavier weights.

Hmm, I'll have to get out my manual and re-read it. I do know the original warning about reduced loads was for their half jacketed bullets. I am like you as well, since the Gold Dot is a high tech plated bullet, I don't see the jacket separating. perhaps they are worried about it just getting out of the barrel, even intact.

**Goes gets Speer #11, 13, and 14**

 

[Walkalong]

Here are a couple of pics from #11 & #13. #14 says the same thing as #13.

The "straight-sided" jacketed bullets are the "half jacketed" bullets I mentioned.

 

[rfwobbly]

...one reply suggested there are 3 different Clays powders. Hornady specifies "Clays Universal", but Lyman just says "Clays". I don't want a dirty-burning powder, and I've read that Clays is fairly clean, so....

Jambie -

An aside: Are you in anyway related to Bambie ?? Inquiring minds and all that.

• Almost all powders burn dirty when underloaded. If you're going to start loading (as you should) at the "starting load" and then work up, then you're going to encounter some gun cleaning. That's simply a fact of life, or a fact of "double base" powders.

• Don't judge a powder by its "starting load". Judge it by the color of the spent case and the condition of the gun at your final load.

• Yes there are 3 "Clays" and it can get very confusing, especially when some printed and internet sources try to shorten the name. You'll simply need to check and double check when you use this powder for loading to make "double darn sure" you have the prescribed powder. So you'll always have that extra safety step in there when using or referencing "Clays".

All the best.

 

[KosmicKrunch]

After much experimenting, the guns I use are much like the ops. I ended up for a 125 xtp out of a .38 special. I find that the speer data seems to be the most consistant and accurate for the uses I put my .38 special through.

Cleaned and sized (trimmed length and case dia) mixed major brand brass
125gr xtp
Universal - 4.8gr weighed and then matched to a Lee dipper of .5/.53vol
CCI SP #500
Appx FPS - 1020
OAL 1.455

I have ended up using Universal for most of my loads from 110gr to 158gr both jacketed and lead. It is just cleaner and easier to use for the loads I shoot. It has also been the most accurate for me in shooting CAS. For cleaning, I use a ultra sonic cleaner with Kroil brand fluid. Both powder and any lead (minimal with the loads I use) literally just falls off and is caught in the coffee filter trap. It also leaves very little unburnt powder as we tested it with laying down white target backings and after 50 shots, measured the unburnt powder and there truly was very little to measure.

My go to load for target practice, plinking and CAS has been:
(This works well out of both my M36 3" and an older (1926) S&W M&P). This is a middle of the road load, so no dangers of exceeding CUP's in either pistol.)

Cleaned and trimmed/sized case
150gr home cast LSWC *Kieth style #2 alloy, lubed with 50/50 alox/beeswax
Universal 3.5gr trickled & weighed
CCI SP #500
FPS 940
OAL 1.160

I have never needed MAX power from any of my .38 pistols for what I do. I do not carry my .38's for SD. I carry a Para Nite Hog .45 for the SD and I use commercial ammo loaded with 230gr xtp's JHP for that.

 

[oneounceload]

I posted this thread on another forum, and one reply suggested there are 3 different Clays powders. Hornady specifies "Clays Universal", but Lyman just says "Clays". I don't want a dirty-burning powder, and I've read that Clays is fairly clean, so....

From Hodgdon comes Clays, Universal Clays (now being called simply Universal), and International Clays.

From Alliant comes ClayDot - while all are similar they are NOT alike nor interchangeable in recipes

 

[howlnmad]

In short, I will say, read the posts by oneounceload. His advise is the most reasonable. The bullet manufacture did the testing with the powders. And don't interchange the Clays powders.

 

[jambie]

Hey, thanks for all the info. My reloading supply shop had both W231 and Universal Clays on sale, so I bought both. I have the Lee factory crimp die, so I'll just seat the bullet to crimp it on the middle of the cannelure to start...

Thanks again!
Tom

p.s. Jambie is a very wise Genie who lives in a box...just ask Pee Wee

 

[KosmicKrunch]

The Lee fact crimp die is good, but really if you are tossing around MAX loads.... P L E A S E MAKE SURE YOUR OAL IS CORRECT, NOT JUST EYE SIGHT ON THE CANNELURE LINE.

I agree with oneounceload +2

Also, even though in some circles, they use Unique and Universal as one in the same, truly they are not.... never interchange data between any powders, no matter how similar they may be.

 

[Hondo 60]

Just to confuse you more...

I like Titegroup because it's clean burning, it's NOT sensitive to position in the case & it's very economical as a Hornady 125 XTP-JHP uses only 4.3 - 4.6 grains of powder.

As far as manual conflicts, I like the bullet manufacturers data and/or the powder manufacturers data.

When they conflict, just start with a middle of the road load & go from there.

Welcome to the forum & stay safe!

 

[Walkalong]

Universal Clays and Clays are not similar at all, not in looks or burn rate.

Titegroup..............it's NOT sensitive to position in the case

That is what they advertise, but in real tests it has proven average in that department as far as velocity goes. Clays is much better as far as that goes, is just as clean burning, and doesn't "stain" the cases as Titegroup is prone to do.

Your W-231 will work great for light to medium loads in .38 Spl, especially with lead, and the Universal Clays will work well for full power .38 SPl. You have two good powders, so there is no need to look further right now.

Pick up some 148 Gr LWC's and use the W-231 for a superbly accurate load that you can shoot all day.

Load those XTP's under a max or near max load of Universal for full power fun.

 

[jambie]

Pick up some 148 Gr LWC's and use the W-231 for a superbly accurate load that you can shoot all day.

Do the LWC or LSWC bullets lead up the barrel? I know there's all kinds of hardness of these bullets, and all kinds of throat measurements, barrel slugging, blah, blah, blah, but are off-the-shelf factory WC's problematic for barrell leading? I don't want to spend any more time cleaning my revolvers than I already do...

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Walkalong]

Leading with the soft 148 Gr HBWC's with light target loads is seldom a problem. Neither are the DEWC's or SWC's at a bit more velocity.

Unless you have undersized throats or an oversized bore, there is absolutely no reason you can not shoot lead without leading. It may take tweaking the charge a little, but that is easy.

These Remingtons look pitiful, but shoot great. These Hornady's aren't bad either. I used to buy HBWC's locally at the gun shows. They were prettier, but didn't shoot any better.

I have also shot a ton of DEWC's like these from Missouri Bullet using W-231 with no leading.

Notice the bullet and powder in these +P .38's I have loaded. Load is straight form the Speer manual. (Max load-work up)(AA #5 works great too)

 

[jambie]

Okay, here's the load I'm going to start with:

WW brass
WSP primers
5.1 gr Universal
Hornady 125 gr. XTP-HP

This load falls on the lower side of Hornady's manual, indicating about 870 fps. They show a starting load of 4.8 gr. and a max of 5.5 gr. for standard psi loads. The Speer manual also shows a max of 5.5 gr. for their standard psi load with their GDHP bullet. I'll use the Lee FCD to crimp on the cannelure, being mindful of the COAL.

Any glaring errors I'm missing before I start?

 

[Walkalong]

Sounds like a good start to me.

The Speer #13 shows a 5.6 Max charge with Universal with a DNR warning with 125 Gr jacketed bullets, but I believe they are being overly cautious.

 

[jambie]

Loaded up 20 rounds and went to the range. Fired them in my Model 27, figuring that would withstand a mishap more than the 36. All went bang! without any problems, but I noticed two things afterward:

1. There were soot streaks on the sides of some cases. Now, this is Winchester brass who resided in the white box at Wally World in their last life. When I fired those new out of the box, some of those cases had soot on one side as well, albeit from the Model 36.

2. I noticed that the spent cases on my reloads had a little of this orange granular stuff left inside that fell out. I'm assuming it's unburned powder, but not 100% sure. These are the loads I described above...5.1gr. Universal powder, WSP primer, Hornady 125gr. XTP.

So, incomplete burning? What's the cause? What's the cure? Talk amongst yourselves...

Cheers,
Tom

 

[onebigelf]

I load 5.0 gr of Universal under that bullet for general shooting (very nice) and 5.2gr if I'm serious.

John

 

[Walkalong]

Powder stains are from low pressure (Although some is normal), and powder residue is from an incomplete burn.


About what to expect with a such a light load. Bump it up .2 Grains and try again.