confused by volumetric grains

[Tinpig]

I recently bought this used Pietta .36 cal. revolver and have been trying to research a starting load. I do a lot of smokeless reloading but this is my first try at BP. I'm aware that BP and substitute loads are supposed to be expressed in volume, not weight, so it confuses me when the loads on the Pietta website and elsewhere are expressed in grains. (Pietta's website recommends 9-12 grains FFFg but I see others here have said that's unnecesssarily low.)

If BP loads are volumetric, why aren't they expressed in cc's? I figure my Lee dippers would be just the thing for measuring BP since they're graduated by volume.

Are there any equivalency tables to translate volumetric grains into cc's?

I did the math and came up with a load of 1.6 cc's based on the volume of the chamber less the volume of the .375 ball and compression and set-back. Tried it with cornmeal and it looked good but wouldn't shoot worth a damn.

What do I know. Am I on the right track?
I'd appreciate any advice.

Tinpig

 

[Chawbaccer]

Grain is a unit of weight, 7000 grains = 1 pound. Black powder is measured by volume, such as the volume 20 grains takes up is considered 20 grains. It doesn't matter how exact you are with your measurements, it is more important you be consistant. Now, some of us would let loose a long bellow if it was suggested we switch to a metric way of measuring. Please don't make this difficult for us old timers.

 

[scrat]

Probably because ccs was not used in measuring for powder back in the days. now you have to think back in old times before scales came out to weigh the charge. black powder was used in a volumetric tube. you adjust it to the desired load and pour in the powder. When its full you fill the cylinders with it. done by volume not weight. Sort of like buying a bag of potato chips. When you open them up its half full. AS they fill by volume not weight. By the time you get it the chips break and settle and then you have less. Its actually pretty easy. ITs also a lot more forgiving. Now as for the differences between companies. 1 we found it could be a language barrier 2 its differences in opinion. A very good starting load for that is 14-20 grains. i would just set up my volumetric for 15 grains and load it up. As for powders most powders will be the same in fact all of them will except 1. 777 triple 777 powder runs 10% hotter than other powders so the charge has to be reduced. However you need to be carefull not to reduce it too much as if you were to go below 10 grains you are going to have a different problem in that you cant press in the ball enough to meet the powder. Cap an Ball black powder you need to seat the ball firmly to the charge. unlike smokeless where you can have a gap. In black powder if you have a gap instead of being a projectile the ball becomes an obstruction and you could blow the cylinder. As far as black powder goes you can not over charge the cylinder. unless you are using a brass framed gun in which you do not have. you could actually fill the cylinder almost all the way up. Just make sure you have enough room to press a round ball below the cylinder otherwise it wont rotate. However you want to use a powder measure as it will help you keep your loads consistent so your shots are consistant. you need to get a black powder measure though if you do not have one. check out dixie gun works. or the place where you bought your gun at

 

[mykeal]

I don't know of any tables anyone has done, but it shouldn't be to difficult - simply use a Lee dipper of known volume in cc's, fill it with powder and empty it into a bp powder measure.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Grains to CCs
Gr. CC
100 6.62
95 6.29
90 5.96
85 5.63
80 5.30
75 4.97
70 4.63
65 4.30
60 3.97
55 3.64
50 3.31
45 2.98
40 2.65
35 2.32
34 2.25
33 2.18
32 2.12
31 2.05
30 1.99
29 1.92
28 1.85
27 1.79
26 1.72
25 1.66
24 1.59
23 1.52
22 1.46
21 1.39
20 1.32
19 1.26
18 1.19
17 1.13
16 1.06
15 0.99
14 0.93
13 0.86
12 0.79
11 0.73
10 0.66
9 0.60
8 0.53
7 0.46
6 0.40
5 0.33
4 0.26
3 0.20
2 0.13
1 0.07
Gr. CC

 

[scrat]

Now thats confusing as all hell. i think i will just stick to my powder measure. That or the eye ball method. my gun fires everytime.

 

[scrat]

I tell you a better method you see where the brass on the front strap meets the frame on your revolver. ok go up and fill the cylinders just below that mark. That should allow you to put in a round ball. otherwise its not science and if a 2nd grade educated redneck back in 1862 could load one so can you.

 

[Tinpig]

Thanks to everyone...a lot of helpful advice and explanation.
Thanks for the conversion table, whosyrdaddy.

The 2nd grade educated redneck back in 1862 knew a hell of a lot more about black powder than I do.
But two of my great-grandfathers survived four years of Colts and Remingtons, so I guess I can too.
Tinpig

 

[BHP FAN]

Cabela's has help videos for loading,as does youtube.If you have the complete Lee dipper set it comes with a 'cardboard computer'.I just checked mine and it says a 1.3cc dipper will throw a 20 gr. charge of 3f. Perfect for a .36 steel framed Remington.

 

[Tinpig]

Thanks BHP FAN-
I do have the Lee "cardboard computer" I just didn't take the trouble to look at it. Problem solved. I could just buy a BP measure from Midway but I already had the Lee dippers.
This is a great forum...saved me 10 bucks +S&H.
Tinpig

 

[scrat]

The 2nd grade educated redneck back in 1862 knew a hell of a lot more about black powder than I do.
But two of my great-grandfathers survived four years of Colts and Remingtons, so I guess I can too.
Tinpig

hahahahahahahaha

 

[Smokin_Gun]

This C&B takes a .3cc charge with a conical...Freedom Arms .22BP

 

[Gewehr98]

It's tricky now that the new stuff is out.

Switching volumetric loading with scale-thrown loads when using real, honest-to-gawd BP (aka, Holy Black) is just fine.

That's because the volumetric powder measures out there are calibrated grain-for-grain to real Holy Black, so one grain of BP on a scale = one grain of BP as measured in a volumetric scoop/tube, etc.

Unfortunately, that's where the equivalency ends.

In this day of Pyrodex, Triple Seven, Clear Shot, and other BP substitutes, the propellant density varies considerably from the old reliable BP standard.

So it's best to stick with recommended load data for the BP substitutes. Be careful, because some of them generate higher pressures and velocities than Holy Black per given volume.

 

[bonza]

If you bought your Lee dippers in the boxed set it should have come with a slide chart that shows the capacity (in grains) with dozens of different powders. Here's what the chart shows for FFFg black powder:

0.3cc=4.8grains
0.5cc=8.0grains
0.7cc=11.1grains
1.0cc=15.9grains
1.3cc=20.7grains
1.6cc=25.5grains
1.9cc=30.3grains
2.2cc=35.0grains
2.5cc=39.8grains
2.8cc=44.6grains
3.1cc=49.4grains
3.4cc=54.2grains
3.7cc=58.9grains
4.0cc=63.7grains
4.3cc=68.5grains​

I use 22 grains, by volume, of Goex FFFg in my Pietta-made .36 Remington '58. Going by the above table you could use the 1.0cc scoop OR the 1.3cc, but you may need to use some CofW, or other filler, with the 1.0cc to bring the ball a little closer to the chamber mouth.

 

[Sagetown]

Solving the Volume mystery with ‘WATER’
Yes; Volume is determined by water weight in grains.

1. On a scale; weigh out 22 grains of water.
*2. Pour that into a measure device.
3. Mark the top of the water line on the measure.
4. Remove the water, and dry the measure.
5. Fill the measure with Black Powder to the water line
6. You now have 22 grains of Black Powder

*Note: The use of a Hypo needle with cc marks is useful in dispersing doses of water measurements. For instance _ : 1.5cc of water = 22 grain weight.............

 

[scrat]

Sage town this wont work. You are using water. water i think weighs 8.25lbs per gallon. Take motor oil motor oil weighs i believe around 7lbs per gallon. So oil will float to the top off water. Same time it will take more oil per volume to fill than it will water as water is heavier. So if you take on a scale and weigh 22 grains of oil. then pour it into a measuring device and mark the top of the spot. then pour it out and clean it. it will take more black powder to fill it to 22 grains than it does for water.

here is a conversion site.

http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver19.htm

 

[mykeal]

So don't use oil.

The bp use of grains as a volume measure was based on water, not oil, just as Sagetown described. It works just fine if you use water.

What's your point about using motor oil?

 

[rcmodel]

Conversion Tables are not worth the band-width it took to post them.

You can't convert black powder volume to grains weight.
At least not without weighing it.

Why?

Because every brand of powder, and every grade or granulation weigh different amounts for the same volume.

rc

 

[arcticap]

Without actually weighing equal volumes of water and powder, I've calculated that water is slightly heavier than BP but not by very much at all.

It's known that there's 7000 grains of volume to 1 pound of BP or 70 charges of 100 grains.

It's also known that 1 pound of water has a volume of 453.6 cc's.

If that amount of cc's is divided by 70, the result shows that 6.48 cc's of water should equal a 100 grain BP charge.

But it takes 6.62 cc's of BP to equal 100 grains or 1/70th of a pound by volume.

That's a discrepancy of .14 cc's for each 100 grains of water by volume/weight compared to BP by volume/weight. That's because 100 grains of BP by weight equals 100 grains of BP by volume.
So from a pound of powder on the basis of the water weight measurement in cc's., there would be 9.8 cc's of extra powder at the end of pound, or 140 grains. (9.8 divided by .07, with .07 cc's being 1 grain of black powder volume from the conversion chart).

But that's not much at all for 70 charges, since it comes out to a difference of only 2 grains of volume or 2% per 100 grain charge.

This is just based on the conversion chart for cc's for BP which I believe is based on it's true average volume [& weight].
I compared the conversions using the actual weight of water found below where 1 pound of water = 453.6 cc:

Water weight converter:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/waterweight.htm

 

[Sagetown]

rcmodel: You can't convert black powder volume to grains weight.
At least not without weighing it.

Absolutely ! Each lot is different. A measured volume from a specific lot can be weighed to give a close proximity of weight for said lot.

That hurts my brain!

 

[rcmodel]

I've calculated that water is slightly heavier than BP but not by very much at all.

Are you talking about FG, FFG, FFFG, FFFFG, Cartridge, Cannon, or Meal-D granulation?

And is it GOEX, GOEX Express, KIK, Swiss, or Diamondback black-powder powder?

It's all different by weight & volume.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

I saw a chart of the rather widely varying weights of different brands and granulation of black powder at the same volume setting. Kind of knocked the idea of "grains volume" in the head. Gunpowder is not water.

I realize it does not necessarily apply to coarse shooting like a cap and ball revolver, but the Sharps Rifle Company recommended that powder be weighed on a scale.

 

[arcticap]

This conversion chart indicates that 100 grains volume of Goex BP ffg equals about 100 grains by weight.

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

It's generally accepted that ffg is the BP standard for conversion.
I believe that it's about a 10% reduction in volume for converting to an equivalent volume of BP fffg.

Cannon powder can always be converted on an individual basis as necessary because it's not very commonly used anyway.
I'd guess to just add 10% more and then test it out or chronograph its performance if that's desired.

Swiss is known as being more of a sporting cartridge powder that burns hotter so it's not considered to be a standard powder but rather a specialty powder. It even has slightly different granulations. But the other standard powders mostly have the same potency. The specialty brands end up being more about consistent velocity and granulation than about weight and volume. In the end a chronograph is required to be able to quantify how well any powder will actually perform in relation to another.

 

[Tinpig]

Gentlemen-
Thank you all for your help. I loaded 1.3 cc's from the Lee dipper and got full-depth penetration of the ball into a PT 2x4 from close range. I'll try the 1.6 cc dipper next time.

My first BP experience and it was a smoky blast.

My uncle heard me shooting (he's 92 and blind but has great hearing considering he was in a weapons platoon at Okinawa) and gave me this holster which was my grandfather's. It's an old Iver Johnson and a perfect fit.


Great day.
Tinpig