Convicted felons owning guns

Should convicted felons be allowed to own Firearms?

  • Yes

    Votes: 203 41.4%
  • No

    Votes: 287 58.6%

  • Total voters
    490
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
"The apologists here want there to be zero penalty for breaking laws."

Yes, death penalty - life in prison - equals no penalty.

"Let's look at DUI. A conviction there usually prohibits firearm ownership. The law in every state I know of says you can't CCW in a bar. The person busted for DUI can't obey the law regarding alcohol and vehicles. Obviously said individual can't be trusted with law regarding CCW and bars."

Unless the DUI is a felony it is not a lifetime ban - though since DUI's are state laws there are fifty sets of states statutes to consider. In many states however DUI does not automatically cost one their RKBA or if it does infringe or limit the right it is also typically time limited - i.e. after so much time ones rights are returned or reinstated. Also, some states do allow CCW in a bar, but prohibit drinking or becoming intox if drinking while CCW. However, there is a rational reason and reasonable justification for limiting or infringing an individuals RKBA if they are alcoholic or drug addicted particularily so if they are CCW while impaired. The same cannot be said for a federal law that imposes a blanket ban on "all" felons after they have served the specific sentence imposed by a judge and/or jury of their peers. More analogus would be after serving the sentence for DUI on top of that the federal government then additionally revoked your RKBA without any limit.
 
In my home state if you get 3 dui's then you are declared a habitual violator & it is a felony. Short of that having a dui does not effect ones abillity to own firearms. It is illegal to carry firearms in bars here anyway. My dui was in 1985. I guess you probably don't think I should be trusted with guns even though I haven't drank since 1988. I get the feeling some folks posting on this issue completely lack any sense of humility or perspective.
 
I think what would go a long way in fixing the system is to get rid of "mandatory sentencing laws," there is no reason for this stupid law and never has. When the Govt was going after mob bosses and using rico, they enacted many laws to get the job done. There is no reason someone should do 20 years for stealing a piece of gum. That would go a long way to fixing this mess. Predicate Felons should not be plea bargained to make room in prisons for guys who needed bread for their family. The guy with 30 violent offenses should stay in jail. The kid who smoked pot when he was 20, should not be punished in the same manner a the murderer. Conspiracy and Facilitation laws were designed to be unfair and impossible to defend, "for organized crime". If taken Literally they can arrest anyone and make a case. But that doesn’t mean that violent offenders get guns. If it was a violent crime, they should never get them back, they violated the public trust. And that stuff about everyone having committed crimes is nonsense. The laws are designed basically for the greater good, or we would have chaos. They act as a deterrent, you break them at your own risk.
 
Didnt read the whole thread but those who voted no should read these books.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556

http://www.amazon.com/Go-Directly-Jail-Criminalization-Everything/dp/1930865635/ref=pd_cp_b_3


Once you allow a government to deprive the rights of a small group, and if their goal is to eliminate the right all together, then it is a lot easier to slowly move people into the group than to eliminate the right all together.

Will your vote change when it becomes a felony to go to specific church, home school your children, be a member of a certain political party....?
 
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"Will your vote change when it becomes a felony to go to specific church, home school your children, be a member of a certain political party....?"


Getting pretty stupid in here.
 
It seems that most folks don't vote the way they talk, look what we have in office now.
Arkansas, before that happens, there would be a revolution, so please don't over react.
When the next elections come up, the best thing to do is vote all of the existing politicians out of office. Maybe then this carrer politician thing would end and they would start to realize that they will be judged on performance rather than party or special interests. Also Bills should be voted on without "pork". No additions or conditions to legislation passed. You don't get a new bridge to noware or a 10 million dollar library, that nobody is going to visit.
We need to let these guys know that we are fed up with their bullxxxx.
 
I can't beleive any reasonable man can't see there is a problem with this issue? Most of us if not all of us know some of these people personally that have been getting this raw deal for years.
If you don't know any of these people you may be a politician running for an office...
 
Pretense

Having slogged through the whole of this thread, I see a couple of things getting buried in the complexity of the discussion which, it seems to me, is more complex than the actual issue.

Let me address the first thing that troubles me:

"Felon" is a plastic term. Its meaning changes too often to be a semantically sound basis for policy formulation.

What was entirely legal in 1965 is a felony today. It isn't any more morally wrong now than it was, but it's illegal today. The simple fact of declaring it "irredeemably bad" (felony) has created a whole class of criminals where none existed before.

Sadly, this process continues in present time, criminalizing things according to what politicians feel will buy them the most political capital and the most re-election insurance.

With this as a foundation for denying a right, for disenfranchising an otherwise good person, the arbitrary nature of declarations that such-and-such is "evil because we said so" makes using the resulting label of "felon" next to useless in determining who morally should be shunned of full participation in society and who should be accepted for same.

With this in mind, I cannot in good conscience support the blanket denial of rights based on the "felon" label.


The next thing that troubles me:

Way more trust in the judgment of government than I can muster. I'll simply say that I have long been disabused of the idea that government is a benevolent actor.


There are other things that I find I can't support, like the idea that it is not possible to rehabilitate a man, that real change is not possible, and that it is only right that a man who commits a crime should be denied the opportunity to rejoin society as a fully participating member and fully qualified citizen. I know first hand that rehabilitation is possible and that the full restoration of a rehabilitated man involves the reclamation of his dignity. This isn't necessarily easy or fast but it is very possible. We seem, as a culture, to have adopted the stance that it can't happen (or, if it does, it's too rare to consider seriously), and have nonetheless engaged in one of the driest ironies I've ever seen: warehousing criminals in facilities owned and managed by the "Department of Corrections," secure in the knowledge that "correction" will seldom, if ever, actually happen. We "know" that redemption isn't possible, so we punish and call it "corrections." It is to weep.


However, the thing that grates on my sensibilities above all else is the notion that many here are happy to make the default assumption that I am possibly -- hell, even probably -- a criminal, in the event that I should presume to want to purchase a gun.

I show up at the gun shoppe and ask to see that little sub-compact 9mm pistol and, once I've looked it over, I tell the counter guy to wrap it up. Uh, not so fast, slick.

"Excuse me, sir, can you prove to our satisfaction that you're not a criminal?"

"Say what? My good man, I'm standing here before you, cash in hand, a valid ID showing that I'm old enough, and as calm and collected as anyone you've ever seen. What on earth would lead you to believe I'm a criminal?"

"Well, sir, we pretty much think that anyone who wants a gun is a criminal. Or that he might be. On any given day, any given person who walks in that door could be a bad guy. Heck, you might be a pervert or a wife beater! Maybe even a bank robber or a kidnapper. You're not a mass murderer, are you?"

"Wait -- let me see if I have this right -- I can walk in here and buy that wicked looking dagger over there, that case of ammo right there, the sword hanging on that wall, one of those compound bows and a quiver full of broadhead arrows in your archery corner, or even one of these in-line black powder rifles, and all you want to know is whether I'm over 18 years old. Right?"

"Yes, sir."

"But if I want that cute Browning Buckmark in the rimfire case, I have to prove to you that I'm not a violent predator, a tax cheat, a chronic drunk driver, an Army deserter, or a drug pusher?"

"That's affirmative, sir."

"Just what, pray tell, would incline you to believe that any random guy off the street might be a heinous criminal?"

"Well, sir, it's probably something to do with the fact that they let unrepentant criminals out of prison all the time; just let them mingle with the general population, and let them have full access to everything in our society -- cars, chain saws, axes & hatchets, hunting knives, high-powered hunting bows & arrows, rope, gasoline, matches, machine tools, and baseball bats -- except for firearms. So, since branding criminals or making them wear a collar or bracelet, or just keeping them in jail till they're actually rehabbed, would be cruel and unusual (and thus violate their rights) we just make everyone else prove he's not one of them. Pretty simple, really."

"I see. And who tells you whether I'm a criminal or not?"

"Oh, we call a government agency. Only the government can be trusted to know if you're good or bad. We trust the government on that."

"Ah. I see. So the government follows these ex-cons around and makes sure they don't get guns from other criminals, right?"

"Well, sir, no. They figure it's enough just to keep them out of gun stores. After all, there are some harsh penalties for illegally buying a gun. Government figures that will keep criminals from buying one."

"How profound. Well, I guess I should feel protected. Government looking out for me and all."

"That's the spirit, sir. Will there be anything else?"



It may not be terribly obvious, but the man whose rights we're so willing to throw under the bus, based on the procedures and wisdom of government, has his leg chained to ours.

There was a time that, when a man was released from having served hard time, it was assumed he would get a horse & saddle, some clothes, some kind of work, and a gun with which to keep himself safe. The "rule," if you want to call it that, was that if you were trusted to be out among the general population you were trusted with the whole package. Anyone who was free to walk the streets was trusted by default.

Today, we are much more sophisticated.

Today, we cleverly mix burglars, robbers, rapists, drug dealers, and serial drunk drivers into the general population . . . and trust nobody.

That's what I call a serious advance in the cause of liberty.


So . . .

You'll forgive me if I am inclined, all things considered, to say: if a man is allowed among the honest and free men of our society, it is because we trust him enough to give him unfettered access to all that our society offers.

To release him into the general population, and then use his presence and arbitrary restrictions we've placed on him to pretend that we're protecting this general population by daily proving to them that we believe THEY cannot be trusted, is to exert a subtle and pervasive control -- an assumption that, as government, it is right and proper for us to have such control -- over the population under the guise of "protecting" them.

The default assumption becomes that the general population are criminals.

And, if you pass enough laws and enact enough regulations, this can be said to be at least nominally true.


Conclusion: if you trust a man to buy a chain saw, an axe, a hunting knife, a black powder rifle, a car, a crowbar, a baseball bat, and a hunting bow with arrows, then it only makes sense to trust him with the most effective tool of self defense.

Pretending to deny him access to firearms -- because, after all, it is only a pretense -- while otherwise permitting him unfettered run of society and its facilities is worse than badly judged folly, it is a political bait and switch.


It is wrong to abridge the liberty of the many because dealing effectively with criminals is "too hard" to get right. This, of course, is the opening line of a longer and quite off-topic debate, so we'll not do that just now.


If you're going to let him out of jail, let him have his gun, and quit pretending that making rules against possession of them has any actual effect.

If you know for sure that he absolutely mustn't ever touch a gun again, and that terrible things will happen if he does, then realize that making a bunch of rules will never stop him. The only way to stop him is that he is locked up or dead.

So, whatever you have to do to fix the "corrections" system, do that and make it work. Anyone released from that system is fully trusted. If you release them but do so knowing they can't be trusted, then you're an idiot or an evil SOB looking to have a finger in everyone's lives.

If he's out, he's armed. Oh, and so is everyone else, too. Civics teachers will see to it that the responsibility to be an armed citizen is routinely understood.

When everyone is armed, a measure of equality is achieved.

When everyone is armed, some actual deterrent is achieved or, failing that, the risks of criminal enterprise increase dramatically, making insurance companies much more reluctant to provide coverage.

When everyone is armed, the ownership and carry of a gun becomes unremarkable.

And that's a worthwhile goal.

 
ArfinGreebly said:
...What was entirely legal in 1965 is a felony today....
And there are things that were felonies in 1965 that are legal today. Societal values changes, and laws change.

ArfinGreebly said:
...Sadly, this process continues in present time, criminalizing things according to what politicians feel will buy them the most political capital and the most re-election insurance....
You find it sad that the body politic influences the making of laws? Isn't that the idea of a representative government -- We the People affecting who gets into office and thereby affecting the enactment of laws. If the body politic agreed with you and were electing folks with whom you agreed, no doubt you'd think it swell for the politicians to be doing things that the public wanted done.

Apparently, you're not happy with the ways in which societal values are changing, and you aren't happy with the ways in which those changes are affecting who gets into public office and what laws get enacted. And there very well may be things to be unhappy about. But we have the system that we've inherited, and that system does give us opportunities to effect changes.
 
"It Is What It Is"

Since things are the way they are, and since the people who are making the rules made the rules the way they are, and since "some people somewhere" voted for the rule makers, and since it must be assumed that whatever rules are, they are ipso facto deemed appropriate and correct and desirable because the result of electing people is "representation."

Or not.

The Constitution is not a "living document" to be bent and twisted to suit "societal values" as they degrade into a puddle of "government must care for me."

The fact that you can create an ignorant and willing population through heavily edited education, heavily slanted "news" and entertainment, and the introduction of moral decay through the gradual infiltration of the teaching establishment itself, doesn't imply that such an accomplishment has any intrinsic rightness.

The smug assertion that "things are the way they are, so there" is an abdication of critical thinking in favor of mob rule. In fact, in favor of rule by expert liars who claim to represent the mob.

I find it sad that the body politic does not influence the making of laws, rather accepting whatever laws are imposed as the natural and proper order of things.

To observe that I'm "not happy" with the current state of affairs is hardly what I'd term an insight of any depth.


The frontiers of liberty have shrunk under a century's onslaught of the minions of tyranny.

I can hardly be smug about that state of affairs.


We have many laws, yet little wisdom. The makers of laws see the erection of statutes as their shot at immortality, their name on an act as their legacy, their claim to importance.

It was never meant to be so.


Now, as a culture of simpering cowards, we plead with government to save us, to protect us, to provide for us. We offer our liberties in exchange for empty promises of security. We believe that it is government's job to take care of us.

Despite the unambiguous declaration, by government, that it has no duty to protect us, we nonetheless permit ourselves to believe that they will do so, and submit ourselves to abuses and intrusions in the name of security, hoping that what is gross inconvenience to us is a deterrent to evil.


Our geniuses in DC have constructed a Rube Goldberg machine fraught with all manner of mechanical inefficiencies for those who participate in its workings. We call this "working within the system."

Meanwhile, those who have no use for the "permission" of the system -- which would be denied them anyway -- simply conduct their business outside the machinery.

We justify this absurd set of cartoon mechanics by pretending it actually accomplishes what is claimed for it.

And, having fooled ourselves into believing the rules somehow protect us from those who just ignore them, we "deny" the ex-con his gun while we wait patiently for our own approval from the functionaries of our masters.


There is so much to be fixed in our labyrinth of stupid and dishonest laws before a sensible resolution is available that it seems hopeless, and the simplest statement of the right answer sounds insane, given the veritable Monty Python parody of justice in place.

The right answer is if he's not locked up, he gets to be armed.

For that not to sound insane, there is much that must be done with our current stupid and useless laws.

I completely understand that.

Even so, even knowing the mountain that must be moved, the right answer doesn't change: a free man may be armed as suits his needs as he sees them. If he's not locked up, he's a free man.

 
the right answer doesn't change: a free man may be armed as suits his needs as he sees them. If he's not locked up, he's a free man.

The world we live in is far more complex than this statement presumes. In some ways that's a good thing, in others it is to our detriment. Our Manifest Destiny was reached quite a while ago, and while paeans to the "free man" are evocative of yesteryear, we have limits upon what we define as a citizen.

The founders of this country would not take exception to our practice of circumscribing the rights allowed to various classes of persons. Indeed, they heartily endorsed it themselves. To be an American in the year 1800 was to know unbridled freedom, unless you were female, non-white, an indentured servant, a slave, a tenant farmer, unlanded, a Jew, etc. That's totally right-on with the Founders and the Constitution. Full, complete and total rights - in particular political rights - were to be given to those with financial (hence educational) wherewithal and investment in their communities. Not to chattel.

Then of course we have the underaged, as enshrined by that old phrase from our youth, "to be free, white, and 21." If you aren't 21, you aren't a citizen. In some places you can get tobacco, you can vote, and you can serve in the military. But you can't buy a wine cooler. And everybody is down with that, apparently.

We have the mentally unfit among us. The brain is an organ just like all the others - the spleen, the heart, the lungs - and genetic defects statistically result in a fairly significant number of people who cannot be let loose in society, and a number who can be released, but only with close supervision, and some who require periodic supervision. These people are not "free," they are on various lengths of leashes. And we are all OK with that.

Members of the armed forces surrender a very large number of rights in exchange for remuneration. And if they violate military code, they can be punished quite harshly for things that civilians can do routinely. And we're OK with that.

Criminals. It's a loaded term, as is "Felon." Our criminal justice system, as our wise and faithful moderator would agree, is an insanely tangled and contradictory apparatus that resembles nothing more than a massive machine of geared teeth. Get so much as a thread of your clothing snatched into it, and you'll be in the fight of your life to extricate yourself from it. Wax poetic all you want about the "freedom to own firearms," but people like me will warn you to guard your biometric data as best you can. Be jealous of your retina pattern, your fingerprints, your DNA. The more you are databased, the greater the chance of a "mistake" that can result in your false imprisonment. Happens all the time.

But we do have real criminals among us. So this discussion took a strong turn over the subject of "real" and "false" felons. The bogus felon is the one we are to sympathize with. The non-violent one. Say, a tax-cheat, right? Well no. A tax-cheat has stolen from us all. So trying to determine what is a "violent" felony as apposed to the victimless type is actually quite difficult. You or I could dash off on a pad of paper any number of no-brainers - statutory rape, theft of a slice of pizza (for a three-strike felon), giving a prescription drug to a friend - many things are felonies that, if prosecuted, would result in loss of all kinds of rights.

Because this is a gun board, advocates here focus on loss of firearms privileges, but there are a whole raft of rights that are lost to the felon. Firearm ownership is just one of many that are surrendered. As we are learning, our national wealth is not infinite. We cannot afford to warehouse prisoners forever. Many states, like California, are letting prisoners go before the ends of their allotted sentences to save money.

Like the mentally ill, the juvenile, and the drug offender, the released felon is in a twilight zone of partial privileges. He is not unique, not especially segregated in this status. He is merely one of many different types of people who have restricted rights. This is in accord with our entire history as a nation and completely in accord with the framers of our Constitution. George Washington would be very much in approval of the idea that a felon not be accorded the same rights as a member of the landed gentry. We inherited this from our ancestors.

Lastly, from a criminal justice perspective, if you weren't a dangerous, violent individual when you were sent to the penitentiary, you probably are by the time they let you out. A few years in the rat cage will do that to somebody. A close friend of mine was convicted of some sort of drug offense and did 3 years in the California Dept of Corr. The man who emerged from that was nobody I recognized.

It is utterly reasonable that we do not allow certain classes of persons to purchase and own firearms. Children, the mentally unfit, the illegal alien, the spouse with a restraining order, and the parolee are in the class of persons who have limitations upon their rights. The ex-con has a pathway to restoration of full rights, including the right to vote and the right to hold certain kinds of sensitive occupations. It is the responsibility of the ex-con to navigate the passage to final reclamation of the title of "citizen." So far, there hasn't been any public outcry about this, and those who protest this state of affairs run the risk of being seen as undermining public safety.

This is a very bad issue for any gun board to champion - the cause of handing out firearms to criminals. It's bad optics and terrible strategy. The NRA constantly suffers accusations of untoward advocacy and this is part of that. If there is an issue to promote here, it's probably the idea that restoration of rights to paroled criminals be a tiered process with clearly identifiable metrics that can be objectively measured.
 
ArfinGreebly said:
Since things are the way they are, ...whatever rules are, they are ipso facto deemed appropriate and correct and desirable because the result of electing people is "representation."

Or not....
ArfinGreebly said:
...The fact that you can create an ignorant and willing population through heavily edited education, heavily slanted "news" and entertainment, and the introduction of moral decay through the gradual infiltration of the teaching establishment itself, doesn't imply that such an accomplishment has any intrinsic rightness....
ArfinGreebly said:
...The frontiers of liberty have shrunk under a century's onslaught of the minions of tyranny....
ArfinGreebly said:
...We have many laws, yet little wisdom....
And what we can get from the foregoing fine rhetoric is that ArfinGreebly knows the truth while others do not. So I guess what is necessary is the wise tyranny of ArfinGreebly.
 
If most felons released from prison reciprocate within the first three years, why would you want them to have a gun? If one wants to keep his guns, then he needs to remain felony free. The fact is, they committed a FELONY crime. Nowadays they wont get much if any time for it any way with prisons being over crowed so the punishment of losing his right to carry a gun and vote are the main punishment they recieve. What felon firearm possessing advocates are failing to realize is that MOST convicted felons are not nice people and the American corrections and rehabilitation system does not work. Therefore mostly the majority of convicted felons didnt need a gun prior to conviction, much less after. I understand that there are people who are rehabilitated and become good people, but they are like pitbulls, most of them are mean as hell, you cant tell which ones are nice, so I wouldnt trust anyone of'em in my neck of the woods. Just my opinion.....
 
Wise Tyranny?

And what we can get from the foregoing fine rhetoric is that ArfinGreebly knows the truth while others do not. So I guess what is necessary is the wise tyranny of ArfinGreebly.

Yeah, that Greebly guy. What a merciless tyrant!

He believes everyone ought to be armed. That's unthinkable oppression!

He believes that education can be fixed and that the electorate need not continue to be led into stupidity and ignorance. Can you imagine? How awful that would be!

He knows that actual honest rehabilitation is possible and that a system that isn't corrupted by the balancing pretenses of "redemption is impossible" and the equally warped "we will call it a 'corrections' system in spite of knowing correction is unattainable" -- a system that restores humanity and dignity -- could actually achieve those things. Yer kidding, right? Make it possible for bad guys to become good guys again? You know that can't happen, right? Punishment without redemption is the only way.


Yeah, imagine some fool, like Greebly, who believes that real education, real morality, real redemption, real responsibility, and real civility are all attainable, and who further believes that everyone should be armed.

What a tyrant. What a heinous oppressor!

That's subversive thinking right there.

Greebly should be locked up. Can't have fools like that loose in society.

I mean, damn! Where would that lead?

 
ArfinGreebly said:
...believes that real education, real morality, real redemption, real responsibility, and real civility are all attainable,...
But then question becomes, who decides what real education, real morality, real redemption, etc. are and when they are achieved? When people disagree on what may constitute "real ______", how do you propose to resolve that conflict?
 
If he's not locked up, he's a free man.
Yep, and even though they can't vote or own a gun legally they will get a gun if they want one.
For the people that were labeled felon for rediculous acts not associated with violant crime by the knee jerk politicians for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, I say get a gun especially if your on your way to California.
 
What's Real?

ArfinGreebly said:
...believes that real education, real morality, real redemption, real responsibility, and real civility are all attainable,...
But then question becomes, who decides what real education, real morality, real redemption, etc. are and when they are achieved? When people disagree on what may constitute "real ______", how do you propose to resolve that conflict?

An astute question.

I realize that asserting these things is an invitation to roll in the off-topic mud, but I will endeavor to confine my answer to a limited subset of the question in hopes that the pattern can be seen to apply more broadly.

I'll take "education" for $400, Alex.

What is "real" education?

Education is what conveys a body of factual knowledge in such a way that the student achieves understanding that enables application. A student of photography is educated (some would say "trained") when he is able to correctly apply the knowledge of methods, techniques, causes, and effects, founded on accurate data. A student of medicine is educated when he can do likewise with the elements of chemistry, biology, method and technique, and communication.

Real education isn't a passing grade on some test. Real education isn't an opinion poll on your feelings about Algebra (and no, I'm not kidding). Real education isn't political or social indoctrination. It also isn't founded in "self esteem and non-judgemental acceptance of alternative lifestyles."

Real education would include the attainment of actual literacy in one's native tongue, an actual grasp of one's native grammar and the spelling of one's native vocabulary.

Real education would include learning an accurate account of national and world history, without wholesale redaction of "undesirable" content.

Real education would include learning critical thinking, logic, and the business of reasoning from one end of a problem to the other.


Most importantly, however, real education would teach students how to study, how to really learn, how to acquire application-level understanding of subject matters. This, more than all the others, is the key. Once you know how to learn -- really learn -- you can study and learn anything.

It wasn't until I had been out of high school nearly five years that I achieved this. I was elated, because I was now free to learn anything that came my way; I was angered because no one -- at all -- in my first twelve years of school had ever taught me how to study and really learn a subject; I was saddened when I realized that was still going on, and students everywhere were being short-changed in a system they trusted to "make them smarter."


I've been an active participant in real education. I've helped salvage students who seriously believed they were cursed with ignorance and illiteracy for life. When you open the doors to literacy and learning for someone -- of any age -- the effect is dramatic. You never forget it.

All the other aspects of society stand on this foundation. Once you have someone who can actually learn, teaching the causes and effects of everything else becomes, while maybe not a slam dunk, at least possible.


If you think about it, the others aren't really that complex. "Real civility?" When responsibility is understood, the inclination to take offense at random petty stuff is substantially reduced.


Now, I've gone on here a lot longer than I had planned. This isn't a philosophy or sociology seminar, and I'm not going to pursue the rest of "real civilization" here. I'll be happy to take it up on another forum, but THR isn't about solving civilization. It's about the responsible ownership and application of firearms.

The ownership and proper application of firearms plays an important part in the protection of personal freedoms.

The measure of judicial and legislative attitudes towards the RKBA is a reliable barometer of government intent regarding personal liberty and freedom.


That a government has seen fit to create a fog of insecurity in our society from which they pledge to rescue us if we will only forfeit this or that liberty, abridge this or that right, abdicate this or that responsibility for our own welfare, and where a government seeks to secure our "safety" by relieving us, by degrees, of the tools by which tyranny may be held at bay, is a "tell" that said government no longer serves its constituency, but seeks to be served by them.

Can this be achieved in the face of an intelligent, aware, well-reasoned populace with a thorough grasp of history and its patterns? I shouldn't think so.

So, while we work toward the recovery of such a society, it is vital that we give no further ground to their efforts to disarm us, and equally vital that we gain back whatever ground we have previously lost.

Fight to keep everyone armed, even as we fight to ensure that every freeman is worthy of it.


Clearly, it's not going to be possible -- or at least supportable -- to simply label everyone a felon. A patent injustice on that scale would not go unnoticed.

Therefore expect that "mental health" will become a significant attack front, with the ploy being "anyone who wants to own a gun is obviously ill." The basic groundwork has already been laid, with doctors having added "do you have guns in your home?" to their new patient questionnaires. Guns are now a "health risk."


It has taken a long time for us to blindly accept that "felons" must never keep or bear arms.

I wonder how long it will take for us to blindly accept that "crazies" must be denied weapons as well.

Oh, and in case you didn't know it, you're one of those crazies.

 
1. There are no actual objective measurable benefits from the blanket ban on felons owning firearms. It is feel good legislation that feeds on peoples fears (ban felons from owning guns, ban guns from 1000 feet around a school - neither really work)

2. The clear trend has been a continuing increase in the number of crimes considered to be felonies, an inflation of what were often misdemeanors.

3. If there is a "federal all encompassing ban" then there should be a clear, available, and objective "federal process for restoration" of rights and there isn't instead there are a myriad of state laws and processes, many of which are subjective, vague, and for many practically unavailable due to costs and/or political hoops. In other words in one state an individual felon could follow a restoration process that was reasonably clear and objective and get their rights back - while if that same individual were to reside in another state they could spend their whole life working for that goal and never achieve it.

4. Arguing that historically slavery, the lack of rights for women, etc... were at one time viewed as acceptable and constitutional as lesser classes of citizens seem to make the point that maybe classes of citizens isn't such a good thing - also the blanket prohibition of felons law as part of the 1968 gun control law was/is the template for the Lautenberg law with a lifetime ban for DV related misdemeanors - another egregious law.

5. As far as "its the law and if it isn't popular then get it changed" - well people are starting to work towards that - seems for most of us concerned with the RKBA tended to focus on establishing a RKBA for everyone first (see Heller and McDonald) and then start to focus on other areas - general carrying of arms, bans of types of firearms, bans on DV misdemeanors, and felons. I think the more debate and discussion of the issue there is and the more people examine it - the more that people will decide that a blanket ban is wrong especially when it is for life without objective restoration.

6. Felonies encompass too broad a palette of crimes and too broad a cross-section of individuals for such a one size fits all ban. Recidivism declines steadily over time after release - violent offenders are often very different than non-violent offenders - crimes with victims vs. victimless crimes. If in a trial sentencing discriminates based on the crime and individual circumstance a sense of justice would dictate that the continued deprivation of rights should also take such things into consideration - which the federal ban does not.

7. Historically for that greater part of our history - quite the contrary - once an individual was released from incarceration he was free to own a gun - and not encumbered by a raft of laws that today denote a continuing status of second class citizen.

8. As for bad politics - I don't agree that what is right or wrong should be held hostage to concerns over image or apparent popularity - there was a time when the words free and black weren't popular together, or women and property rights or the right to vote, or in the 70's ownership of a handgun, or even today in many big cities gun ownership, or ownership or EBRs.

9. There is a continuing pattern from gun control advocates to develop an ever increasing list of classes of "prohibited persons" when it comes to gun ownership - the federal blanket ban on felons was one of the first of these in modern times - though antecedents may be found in the Jim Crow laws.

10. Children grow up and automatically assume full rights upon reaching a certain age, the mentally ill are denied after a legal hearing and do not suffer a blanket ban for life - many mentally ill depending on the specific nature of their illness are able to own firearms - the mentally deficient have also had a legal hearing and may continue to seek a new hearing - it is a straight forward, available, and objective process. Such a straight forward and objective process is rarely available to felons seeking a restoration of their RKBA.

11. "the idea that restoration of rights to paroled criminals be a tiered process with clearly identifiable metrics that can be objectively measured."

Yes, this would certainly be preferable to what we have now - and even better at the front end a determination at trial and sentencing of loss or not of RKBA upon release.

Having known many felons over the years I will say that there are many that never need to have a gun ever for the rest of their lives - probably more than in the general population - many sociopaths (current pc term anti-social personality disorder) would probably be better off without guns - (add that to narcissistic personality disorder and you get a perfect politician) - but I don't think we really want to go further down that path in our country. I think that if we error in our society it should be on the side of freedom - and we need to avoid creation of classes of citizens as much as possible - by all means if someone commits a crime they should be punished and lose the free exercise of their rights for the term of their punishment - if they are to be denied their RKBA for life or for a term after release then let it be determined in court by a judge and/or jury of their peers in their specific case.

12. The easier it is to abridge and limit the RKBA - the more blanket abridgements or lifetime abridgements we accept -the more we diminish the RKBA - the more we set the plate for continued infringements and the easier we make it for more and more people to become "prohibited persons." Because they are a felon, because the were a DV misdemeanor offender, because they are mentally ill, because they take anti-depressants or took them, because ........ It is a central tactic that the Brady Campaign and their ilk pursue to deny increasing numbers of their RKBA. Broaden what constitutes a felony or DV or mental illness and the list of prohibited persons grows and grows.

We went down the wrong road with this law, we need to start turning it around.
 
Mr Mack and Mr Greebly have posted some very well thought out things here.

I hope people will slow down and read them, trying very hard to remove the emotion from this issue.
 
What you are describing is more of a social commentary, and it may be somewhat correct in principal, but the likelihood of what you describe is just too much to envision in this society at the present time.
A good start would be what is needed and perhaps the end of "mandatory sentencing" would go a long way towards accomplishing those goals. Although I still can't advocate restoring rights to anyone who is a predicate felon, and has proved they intend to commit violent crimes. That is just not a wise decision in my opinion. A killer should not have his work made easier because of a philosophic idealism. The laws of probability exist for a reason.
 
Pretty much every crime, is a felony these days. Very likely every person on this board is a criminal....how many times every day do we break laws? Do you ever speed? Do you ever litter? Do you ever forget to buckle your seat belt? Do you not always use your turn signal? Have you ever gone through a red light when absolutely no one else is at the intersection? Ever had your parking meter go past the alotted time?

The government is not God people lets not treat it like it is.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJ6ZNswiBw
 
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