usmarine0352_2005
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Could this set legal precedent on veterans and carry permits?
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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Well it won't set a precedent since it was a ruling at the local trial court level. But it may help provide guidance to other lawyers representing other people in similar situations.
This was, unless appealed, just a local matter; and any "far reaching implications" are more wishful thinking than reality. But even a favorable, local ruling helps us by helping to confirm that the result is achievable. The lawyer who made this happen will, IME, be sought out by other lawyers dealing with similar problems to learn how it he handled the case, what sort of evidence he found helpful and what his legal arguments were.
This was, unless appealed, just a local matter; and any "far reaching implications" are more wishful thinking than reality. But even a favorable, local ruling helps us by helping to confirm that the result is achievable. The lawyer who made this happen will, IME, be sought out by other lawyers dealing with similar problems to learn how it he handled the case, what sort of evidence he found helpful and what his legal arguments were.
On the other hand, it establishes that there already is a bias about veterans and that if under stress they need to have their guns taken away.
It reinforces to veterans they need to keep a low profile and suffer in silence, otherwise, if seen acting out, authorities will detain them for psychiatric observation and establish grounds they are too mentally disturbed to conduct themselves lawfully.
It's a chiller on those who would reach out for counseling, because it then becomes a public record of needing behavioral modification from external authorities.
In other jurisdictions, a judge could well decide exactly the opposite, thereby making it official that the individual can and should have their 2A rights restricted. There are already hundreds of thousands of vets who have signed away their 2A rights for a disability check. Acts like this just help expand the concept that it can be done involuntarily.
Of course, the counselors note it only adds to the idea among vets that it's bad enough no one cares and there's little to no help, but now, the cops will persecute you and lock you up for behavior that would be excused if you were drunk. They often see a chilling effect and drop off in requests.
The more the public authorities focus on proactive intervention, the more the public will avoid intervention at all if the proceedings always go before a judge and their rights are revoked. The law abiding understand it's a one way street for them, that the lawless will still get weapons and only they will be affected.
That breaks down the public's respect for the law, which at present seems to be little better than their opinion of Congress. If you can't get a fair trial and it takes money to reverse bad decisions, then the poor become increasingly dispossessed of their rights and that can and will be exploited by others.
We already see that in workplace violence, civil rights demonstrations, and those who proselytize believers in cults. Others simply renounce their citizenship and refuse to pay taxes.
It's not the country I planned to live in when I grew old.
It reinforces to veterans they need to keep a low profile and suffer in silence, otherwise, if seen acting out, authorities will detain them for psychiatric observation and establish grounds they are too mentally disturbed to conduct themselves lawfully.
It's a chiller on those who would reach out for counseling, because it then becomes a public record of needing behavioral modification from external authorities.
In other jurisdictions, a judge could well decide exactly the opposite, thereby making it official that the individual can and should have their 2A rights restricted. There are already hundreds of thousands of vets who have signed away their 2A rights for a disability check. Acts like this just help expand the concept that it can be done involuntarily.
Of course, the counselors note it only adds to the idea among vets that it's bad enough no one cares and there's little to no help, but now, the cops will persecute you and lock you up for behavior that would be excused if you were drunk. They often see a chilling effect and drop off in requests.
The more the public authorities focus on proactive intervention, the more the public will avoid intervention at all if the proceedings always go before a judge and their rights are revoked. The law abiding understand it's a one way street for them, that the lawless will still get weapons and only they will be affected.
That breaks down the public's respect for the law, which at present seems to be little better than their opinion of Congress. If you can't get a fair trial and it takes money to reverse bad decisions, then the poor become increasingly dispossessed of their rights and that can and will be exploited by others.
We already see that in workplace violence, civil rights demonstrations, and those who proselytize believers in cults. Others simply renounce their citizenship and refuse to pay taxes.
It's not the country I planned to live in when I grew old.
BSA1
member
Tirod,
That is a most excellent commentary!
That is a most excellent commentary!
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Given that such incidents are not limited to veterans, I am not sure this is as much about being a veteran as the lawyers and news playing up the story about how a war veteran is being mistreated.
RustyShackelford
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Veteran's rights, guns....
In 2012, I had a episode which involved my local PD.
I was brought up on charges(that were later cut & the entire case closed).
While incarcerated(for a total period of approx 24hr), I was informed by my property manager that the city PD came by & wanted to "confiscate" my M&P 9x19mm pistol and 150rd of 9mm ammunition.
The manager(also my former employer for about 12mo) told me the police wanted to take possession of my 9mm pistol & rounds for "safe-keeping".
He went on to say the police(he didn't explain who they were, ranks or names) said I could no longer live on the property and that they wanted to issue me a formal trespass.
I was very angry & upset with the police officers for saying this considering I was not convicted & not examined or adjudicated as a mental health risk.
The manager went on to say he refused to file a trespass warning & he took possession of my property(including my M&P/9mm ammunition).
He babbled on about taking the pistol for himself if I didn't claim it but I knew he had no legal standing to steal my property.
FWIW; my lease/rent was current and I wasn't under any eviction status at the time of the incident.
I later contacted the police department's internal affairs unit & informed them of the police officers/arrest. The detective I spoke with was honest & acknowledged what the patrol officers did was wrong.
As a honorable discharge veteran & NRA member it irks me that some US law enforcement officers or officials feel they can trample all over a citizen's civil rights or confiscate property(to include guns) without legal cause.
When some get caught or the media reports it, they say; so what or we don't care.
Know your legal/civil rights & if you can, get a legal defense plan or lawyer to aid you in emergency events.
In 2012, I had a episode which involved my local PD.
I was brought up on charges(that were later cut & the entire case closed).
While incarcerated(for a total period of approx 24hr), I was informed by my property manager that the city PD came by & wanted to "confiscate" my M&P 9x19mm pistol and 150rd of 9mm ammunition.
The manager(also my former employer for about 12mo) told me the police wanted to take possession of my 9mm pistol & rounds for "safe-keeping".
He went on to say the police(he didn't explain who they were, ranks or names) said I could no longer live on the property and that they wanted to issue me a formal trespass.
I was very angry & upset with the police officers for saying this considering I was not convicted & not examined or adjudicated as a mental health risk.
The manager went on to say he refused to file a trespass warning & he took possession of my property(including my M&P/9mm ammunition).
He babbled on about taking the pistol for himself if I didn't claim it but I knew he had no legal standing to steal my property.
FWIW; my lease/rent was current and I wasn't under any eviction status at the time of the incident.
I later contacted the police department's internal affairs unit & informed them of the police officers/arrest. The detective I spoke with was honest & acknowledged what the patrol officers did was wrong.
As a honorable discharge veteran & NRA member it irks me that some US law enforcement officers or officials feel they can trample all over a citizen's civil rights or confiscate property(to include guns) without legal cause.
When some get caught or the media reports it, they say; so what or we don't care.
Know your legal/civil rights & if you can, get a legal defense plan or lawyer to aid you in emergency events.
tirod remarked,
Amen, and as noted, true for others as well as veterans.
tirod adds in conclusion,
I, among others of my age group, have the perspective of many decades of seeing the gradual decay of freedom for the sake of safety. What is taken for "normal" nowadays would have been outrageous in former years. The frog in boiling water is an apt analogy.
Terry, 230RN
REF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
Amen, and as noted, true for others as well as veterans.
tirod adds in conclusion,
I, among others of my age group, have the perspective of many decades of seeing the gradual decay of freedom for the sake of safety. What is taken for "normal" nowadays would have been outrageous in former years. The frog in boiling water is an apt analogy.
Terry, 230RN
REF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
BSA1
member
Rusty,
How did the Police know you had a gun and ammunition in your residence?
How did the Police know you had a gun and ammunition in your residence?
RustyShackelford
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- 4,018
Response to post 8....
While I was in the county jail, the police(as noted, I was not told who it was, but I have a good idea) reportedly came on my property & "asked"(more like demanded , that I be evicted & "trespassed".
The property manger/owner explained to me later that he informed the police that some of my property included the M&P pistol and 9x19mm ammunition(the ammunition was secured but my gun was in a Bore-Store bag in a night-stand).
Note; the property manager also knew I owned a firearm because I told him directly while I was a employee which was in-directly part of why no longer employed.
According to my property manager the PD officers then said they'd take possession of my M&P & rounds until I could be released.
I looked into hiring a atty/law firm & taking formal civil litigation against the city & PD but no lawyers would agree to help me.
In short, I was arrested because a hot-tempered & obnoxious police officer kept screaming insults at me during a incident. I calmly explained to the officer that I was going to contact the PD's office of professional standards. This made the cop fly into a rage & put a bogus "disorderly conduct" charge on me.
He also tacked on a "city ordinance" violation saying I called 911. This was a lie & I explained to IA later my cell phone records proved it.
The police officer had a young trainee with him on field training status(this was confirmed to me by the Internal Affairs detective). When the trainee asked why I was being charged & what was going on, the senior officer said; "If you dont do this, I'll make sure no one ___ ing works with you!".
As posted, all my charges were later dismissed & I went to the police dept IA office. I'm not aware of what actions they took but they trainee officer stayed on the job.
FWIW; he later was involved in a traffic accident where he hit & killed a unknown man on a bike(12/2013).
While I was in the county jail, the police(as noted, I was not told who it was, but I have a good idea) reportedly came on my property & "asked"(more like demanded
, that I be evicted & "trespassed". The property manger/owner explained to me later that he informed the police that some of my property included the M&P pistol and 9x19mm ammunition(the ammunition was secured but my gun was in a Bore-Store bag in a night-stand).
Note; the property manager also knew I owned a firearm because I told him directly while I was a employee which was in-directly part of why no longer employed.
According to my property manager the PD officers then said they'd take possession of my M&P & rounds until I could be released.
I looked into hiring a atty/law firm & taking formal civil litigation against the city & PD but no lawyers would agree to help me.
In short, I was arrested because a hot-tempered & obnoxious police officer kept screaming insults at me during a incident. I calmly explained to the officer that I was going to contact the PD's office of professional standards. This made the cop fly into a rage & put a bogus "disorderly conduct" charge on me.
He also tacked on a "city ordinance" violation saying I called 911. This was a lie & I explained to IA later my cell phone records proved it.
The police officer had a young trainee with him on field training status(this was confirmed to me by the Internal Affairs detective). When the trainee asked why I was being charged & what was going on, the senior officer said; "If you dont do this, I'll make sure no one ___ ing works with you!".
As posted, all my charges were later dismissed & I went to the police dept IA office. I'm not aware of what actions they took but they trainee officer stayed on the job.
FWIW; he later was involved in a traffic accident where he hit & killed a unknown man on a bike(12/2013).
BSA1
member
Strange story indeed. However some things are best left undiscussed on THR especially since you do not support shall issue conceal carry permits.
RustyShackelford
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I don't support....
What I don't support our people who want CCWs because they are "fun" or "enjoy shooting people".
What I don't support our people who want CCWs because they are "fun" or "enjoy shooting people".
herrwalther
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And people can't figure out why Veterans have a chip on their shoulder...
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