Crimping jacketed bullets without cannelure

[16in50calNavalRifle]

In the archives there is a thread on this topic from 273 days ago - actual issue was crimping plated bullets, but seems the solution is the same as for jacketed. I tried to revive it, but was not allowed to do so by the rules that appear to govern revival of zombie threads. So - here goes.

Issue is how to crimp jacketed bullets - without cannelure or groove of any kind - for revolver rounds. In my case, jacketed 125 grain 38/357 bullets that I want to load in both 38 and 357 brass.

I assume the solution, as discussed in the old thread, is to taper crimp.

Walkalong and others noted the use of a taper crimp-only die (either the Redding, or the Lee). I checked the Lee website, and their product description for their entire line of taper crimp dies states "Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove." The specific product description for the 38/357 taper crimp die, however, says nothing about the requirement for a cannelure or groove.

If the 38 taper crimp die works for both 38 and 357, on jacketed bullets without a groove, then I guess that's my answer.

But I confess to liking the another solution that Walkalong and bergmen, in the old thread, said they used in some cases - using similar-sized semi-auto seating dies (9mm for 38/357, in my case) to taper crimp the revolver round.

For those that have done this, do you just back out the die from its normal position and slowly screw it down in until you get the crimp you need?

Or could this be the perfect role for the often unloved FCD? Seat the bullet with seating die (backed out so that it only seats the bullet and does not apply any crimp), then crimp with the 9mm FCD?

Comments or suggestions welcome.

 

[David Wile]

Hey 16,

There several things that come to mind reading your post about shooting 125 grain 38/357 jacketed bullets with no cannelure.

First, do you really need to crimp the bullets for your particular purposes? Neck tension may be sufficient to hold you bullets in place while shooting. If neck tension holds the bullets well enough, don't bother with crimping.

Second, how many of these bullets do you have? If you have a lot of them and you do actually need to crimp your bullets, you can buy a special hand tool that will cut a very good cannelure wherever you want it on a jacketed bullet.

Third, you cannot truly put a proper crimp on a jacketed bullet if it does not have a cannelure. The side of a jacketed bullet is straight, and if you crimp the end of the case mouth on the straight side of a jacketed bullet without a cannelure, you will distort your case and defeat the purpose of neck tension which depends on a tight straight case mouth. If you force a crimp into the jacket, it will only do so by deforming the bullet.

Fourth, if you really need to crimp the bullets and do not want put your own cannelure on them, you might consider selling them and buying bullets with a cannelure.

Fifth, if you absolutely do not care about neck tension and want to force a crimp into the jacketed bullet without care about deforming the bullet, then you might consider buying a Lee Factory Crimp Die. It can actually crimp the case mouth anywhere you want, but it will deform the bullet even though some folks will insist otherwise. Think about it. If you use a die to crimp the case mouth into the jacket of a bullet without a cannelure, the crimped jacket material has to go somewhere. It goes into the lead core inside the jacket.

Personally, I would check very carefully to see if you really need to crimp the bullets at all. If the bullets do not move under recoil, you don't have to crimp them. You can also increase neck tension on .38 cases by using a 9MM neck expander/bell die which is a few thousandths smaller than 38 caliber.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[cfullgraf]

If there is no cannelure already in the bullets, then a taper crimp would be appropriate. The taper crimp really only serves to remove the belling of the case mouth, it really does not hold anything.

That said, taper crimped rounds in a revolver, if stout enough may have issues of the bullets moving in the case under recoil.

There are taper crimp 38 Special/357 Magnum dies, I have an RCBS set that the seater is a taper crimp die and labeled as such. But, the standard crimp for revolver cartridges is a roll crimp.

A 9x19 taper crimp die might work if the 38 Special/357 Magnum case fits into it. I cannot say I have ever tried.

I am surprised th hear a 38 caliber jacketed bullet does not have a cannelure, but, you do learn something every day.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Dave - thanks for the great comment.

I have a lot of these bullets, I have no particular desire to roll crimp them/create a cannelure, and neck tension is just fine with me.

I was just asking those more experienced in these matters if neck tension, i.e. a taper crimp (that's the way I understand "taper crimp" and I believe that's correct) was the proper way to finish jacketed bullets without cannelures in revolver ammo - and also for suggestions on the best ways to do it (die adjustment, use of separate taper crimp die, use of like-caliber seating dies like 9mm for 38).

Interesting that you mention using a 9mm expander die. If I did that, and also used a 9mm seating die (as THR member bergmen said he did in the old thread), I'd only have one 38 die in the turret while I'm loading 38/357! Fine by me - whatever works.

One minor question that arises for these jacketed, groove-less bullets in a revolver load is OAL. With a cannelure, you have your OAL set (as I learned from this forum). Without a groove to crimp into, and no semi-auto chamber or rifling leade as constraints, it would seem OAL for this sort of revolver round is wide open.

These are truncated cone/flat points. In the factory 38 and 357 with this bullet shape that I have used, he bullets are seated such that the cone shape begins right at or near the case mouth. Absent any correction from folks here, that's how I plan to seat these bullets.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

cfullgraf, I bought these bullets specifically to load light (38 special) loads in 357 brass for a snubbie in which I am reluctant to use lead - so the loads should be anything but stout.

But I understand the function of roll crimp in preventing bullet movement in revolvers, so that's one reason I was asking about taper crimp for this application.

My bad for not checking on this matter before I orderd the bullets. I have emailed the bullet source for suggestions/perspective on loading them, given that they have no cannelure.

 

[cfullgraf]

The bullets should be fine, just you may have trouble with hot loads, although you could seat them to the beginning of the truncated cone and roll crimp. Just work up the load from a start load since the bullet will be seated deep and pressures would rise faster due to the lower case volume under the bullet.

Generally, over all length limit of a revolver is the length of the cylinder. If the bullet sticks out of the cylinder, it will not rotate.

 

[Walkalong]

No amount of taper crimp in .38 Spl or .357 with plated or other non cannelured bullets can make up for poor neck tension. A heavy taper crimp can help if neck tension is already good and the bullet can take it.

Get your neck tension right, then taper crimp.

Or could this be the perfect role for the often unloved FCD? Seat the bullet with seating die (backed out so that it only seats the bullet and does not apply any crimp), then crimp with the 9mm FCD?

The 9MM FCD crimp die is too tight for .38 Spl, and would ruin the round. A regular 9MM crimp die would probably work if the round fits, because it does not have the carbide ring designed for 9MM.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7699828&postcount=14

 

[jbelder]

On plated bullets I just use the standard roll crimp die. Adjust it to just take the bell off with just a touch more crimp, but not too much. You will crack the plating.

 

[USSR]

These are truncated cone/flat points.

Do these bullets have a shoulder, such as SWC's have? If so, I would seat them so that the shoulder is just below the case mouth, and slightly roll crimp them over the shoulder. Otherwise, taper crimp them as previously stated.

Don

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Thanks all for your helpful replies.

Chuck, I do not plan anything close to hot loads for these, though I am mindful of the need to not go too light with jacketed bullets. And yes the cylinder gives me my max OAL - but these are 125s, there should be no problem with length.

USSR, there's no shoulder per se, just the "corner" where straight side becomes cone shape. I am hoping and expecting that good neck tension with possibly some assist from taper crimp will work, as with plated bullets for this application. And again I will not be loading these hot.

Walkalong, I will probably just experiment with the 38 and 9mm regular seating dies, backing them off to see if I can just smooth the flare (as jbelder and, in the older thread, bergmen said they do). And (as I always do) I will be aiming for bare minimum belling or flare to start with.

Am I correct that neck tension is achieved by proper use of the full length resizing die? That seems key here, as in essence I will be creating a straight-walled pistol round.

I am confident I will get these to work, but for the future, any recommendations on jacketed 38 bullets WITH a cannelure? I mean bulk, and economical, not high-quality brand names. I looked and looked and found very few bulk jacketed 38s on the market, which surprised me given the abundance of sources for cast bullets of all kinds.

 

[gamestalker]

I can't imagine not having a canelure for 38/357 loads to crimp. It takes a good roll crimp to prevent bullets from jumping out of the brass using canelured bullets. I suppose if your only running light or super light loads, but then your getting into another grey area with bullets getting stuck in the barrel. But this is coming from a reloader that only uses H110 or 296 for .357 mag. and Longshot or HS6 for 38 spcl. where there is no avoiding a very frim roll cirmp.
I don't recall ever seeing 38/357 bullets that don't have a canelure.

 

[918v]

Lee's described requirement for a crimp groove is wrong. You don't need a crimp groove to taper crimp. Just seat the bullet deeper and crimp over the shoulder. That's how the original 45 Colt rounds were crimped. It works well.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

gamestalker, you're correct, and I'm aware of the need to not go "too light" with jacketed bullets. I'm confident I can get a load that has enough oomph yet does not loosen the other rounds in the cylinder. At least I'll have fun experimenting to get there.

918v, funny thing, a Lee tech responded to my inquiry about seating/crimping these bullets by saying that the FCD will make its own cannelure (probably meaning a slight indent) in the bullet if I use it on these rounds. He also said he would not recommend a taper crimp in 38/357 - yet several commenters here and on the older thread noted that they load plated with neck tension/taper crimp (and wow - Walkalong's beautiful photo of what appears to be a revolver round shows a very nice heavy taper).

The bullet maker emailed me that he loads these just as he does other revolver bullets - he roll crimps at it puts a slight ring in the bullet. The Lee tech said the FCD would do what sounds like the same thing - put its own little cannelure in the bullet.

Just because learning and experimenting are part of the fun of reloading for me, I will probably try several approaches: tapering with a backed-off 38 seating die, and with a 9mm seating die; belling with a 9mm die; roll crimp and FCD crimp to put a bit of a ring in the bullet myself. Then check them all, carefully, as I fire a few cylinders' worth, to make sure there's no set-back or other bullet movement in unfired rounds.

Seems like there should be no problem, as some folks do indeed use groove-less 38 jacketed slugs using various methods, and others do analogous things with plated bullets.

 

[gamestalker]

As long as you are completely aware of the risk, you should be OK then. I usually single load 2 rounds and leave the second round in for 5 or 6 shots to see if it holds OAL. Maybe try that method to reduce some of the risk associated with non canelured crimping.
Good luck and I hope it works well for you!
GS

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

gamestalker - excellent idea! I had actually been mulling over a testing procedure to be sure that rounds loaded using this bullet would hold through a full cylinder of recoil. Your method is the one I will use. Maybe I'll use some full-house factory 357 as my "shake 'em up" ammo, just put one reload in a cylinder and check it after 5 shots.

Update on this whole thing - I was able to spend a few hours today at the bench (ahhh), and it seems that both the Lee tech and the bullet maker were correct: crimping these bullets, with either the regular 38 seating die and/or the FCD, sort of creates its own groove in the bullet.

I had a powder issue with my second set of 5 test loads, forcing me to pull several bullets. Sure enough, the crimping had created a neat little cannelure of its own in the copper jacket. And it took 4-6 good whacks with the kinetic puller to open them up. So at this point I'm moderately confident that this crimp method produces acceptable revolver ammo.

I have used reduced loadings for the rounds in 357 brass; a max 38 special load and a 38+P load with HP-38, and a near-max and max 38 special load with Silhouette. This follows the suggestions of seasoned reloaders that medium-to-max 38 loads should be sufficient for jacketed bullets in 357 brass. I also loaded a few medium and max loads with those two powders in 38 brass, as I was getting my feet wet with the new seating and crimping adjustments.

Hope to shoot them in the next few days, and will report back here with results.

 

[David Wile]

Hey 16,

Two comments on your last post:

1st Paragraph - You have a flaw in your testing. Your intent is to see if the bullets will remain in place with just neck tension while under recoil of shooting your loads. Your test practice is testing your intended load under hot loads to "shake 'em up." If the bullet in your intended load does not move, fine, you know neck tension is all you need to hold your bullets. On the other hand, if the bullet in your intended load does move, all it proves is the bullets move when using hot loads. That is kind of like saying a cat will never sit on a hot stove twice. That may be true, but the cat will also never sit on a cold stove either. My point is that you should check to see if the bullets in your intended load will move when shooting your intended load. If they do not move with the intended load, you have solved your problem. Keep it simple.

3rd Paragraph - You mentioned that you pulled some bullets that you had crimped and "Sure enough, the crimping had created a neat little cannelure of its own in the copper jacket." Let me assure you it did not create a cannelure in the copper jacket. What it did was to deform your bullet. When a jacketed bullet is made with a cannelure, a groove is cut into the jacket of the bullet for the case mouth to be roll crimped. When you simply use a crimping die to squeeze the case mouth into the jacket and form your own "cannelure," the soft lead core of the bullet is deformed. Pictures of such bullets sawn in half lengthwise have been posted on this forum, and the bullet deformation is obvious. Why spend the money buying jacketed bullets if you are just going to reshape them from what they were designed.

Find out if neck tension is sufficient to hold your bullets without any crimp. If you can hold the bullets in place with simple neck tension, STOP. Your problem is solved. Keep it simple.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Dave, point (or points) taken. Will "recoil test" with like loads, and in any case I already planned to do another set of test loads with just neck tension holding the sides of the bullet, no crimp. As to cost, it wasn't much for these bullets and it's already "sunk".

As noted previously, these are for specialty loads destined for exclusive use in a snub revolver in which I don't want to 1) develop carbon cylinder rings 2) bother with cleaning lead. I hope to use the revolver as a second gun in an informal steel match I sometimes shoot - ranges short, targets large - so accuracy and ballistic elegance are not on the menu for this load.

 

[dickttx]

"On plated bullets I just use the standard roll crimp die. Adjust it to just take the bell off with just a touch more crimp, but not too much. You will crack the plating."

This, as stated by Dave. The FCD for 38/357 is a roll crimp, so just use your seat/crimp die as adjusted per above.

 

[918v]

Crimping over the shoulder is better than forcing the case mouth into the bullet with a FCD. Molesting the bullet like that has been linked to keyholing. An over the shoulder crimp is mechanically stronger.

 

[mtrmn]

taper crimp is the way to go. It works with auto pistol bullets which don't normally have a groove. Example: 45acp FMJ