Dallas Shooting

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hso

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Our thoughts and hearts go to the families and victims of the Dallas attack.

Predictably enough the Anitis jumped on the horrible attack as an opportunity to demand law abiding gun owners have restrictive laws imposed upon them, specifically demanding "assault weapons" bans before anything was known other than gunfire had killed officers supporting the march in Dallas.

[strike]What we now know is that a rifle California doesn't even list as an "assault weapon" was used by the murderer. The lowly SKS was the murder weapon. A rifle without a pistol grip or rail system or "folding thing that goes up".

News outlets have referred to it as an "assault rifle" in their typical pandering to the Antis to create an impression in the minds of the public that anything could be worse than the calculated ambush murder of strangers peacefully going about their business. [/strike]

We've pointed out that there's no functional difference between the rifles that operate basically like any number of self loading rifles whether they're black or brown or have "evil" looking ergonomic furniture or not in arguing against the Anti propaganda demonizing ARs or AKs or "Assault Weapons/Rifles".

[strike]How do we handle the fact that an SKS was used in this attack? What argument against Antis doesn't fall into the potential trap that all self loading rifles should be banned now that our own argument that the singling out the AR looking rifles is irrelevant since evil people and "normal" criminals won't be hampered in committing murderers if all "ARs" were confiscated?[/strike]

A picture leaked out from after the explosive was used to end the standoff shows what appears to be a modified Saiga AK style rifle changing the discussion completely.
New-Photo-Of-Dead-Dallas-Shooter-And-His-Gun-Surfaces-Online_large.jpg
 
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Some (not many, mostly the anarchists) of the antis will probably applaud it, since it was used on LEO's. The anti's working behind the scenes will doubly applaud it, since their dupes will call for more restriction, and it creates more fear, which is their goal.

As for how to handle it, not sure. Maybe a massive media campaign showing regular people using SKSs for hunting, target shooting, etc.?
 
I can this snowballing from a different view. Anti's nemesis is the evil AR but even more rare and mythological is the AK47. They really havent had that card since the North Hollywood bank robbery. And when they understand that this shooting took place with another type of gun that shoots "super deadly" Ak47 rounds you can bet they will flaunt that aspect of things.
 
Focusing on this part,


What argument against Antis doesn't fall into the potential trap that all self loading rifles should be banned now (snip)


Ive been pondering that too since CA did their hokus pokus on July 1. I think that is their 1st major objective.


I'm not sure but thinking out loud, Ive only come up with the more obvious examples of the Boston bombing, Timothy McVeigh etc....the fact that per the FBI, by far, more people are murdered by feet, fists, and blunt force than ALL rifles combined (even if you include shotguns too).


I think that we need to do a better job of shifting the demonization of the weapon back to the demonization of the motive/person and the FBI data should be better utilized to do it.


We need to quit with the highly ineffective dogma tactics of 'its just an inanimate object'.

Yeah... well, so is a pressure cooker, fertilizer, nails, bats etc.


Back in the early days of not profiling anyone etc, they had to shift their demonization of the person to something. The object was erroneously chosen.

The motives need to highlighted, addressed, and work done to improve.

After all, if you strip 2 people naked and put them in a padded room, if they have motivation to harm, they will beat each other with hands and feet - And the FBI data confirms it.


.
 
Our thoughts and hearts go to the families and victims of the Dallas attack.

Predictably enough the Anitis jumped on the horrible attack as an opportunity to demand law abiding gun owners have restrictive laws imposed upon them, specifically demanding "assault weapons" bans before anything was known other than gunfire had killed officers supporting the march in Dallas.

What we now know is that a rifle California doesn't even list as an "assault weapon" was used by the murderer. The lowly SKS was the murder weapon. A rifle without a pistol grip or rail system or "folding thing that goes up".

News outlets have referred to it as an "assault rifle" in their typical pandering to the Antis to create an impression in the minds of the public that anything could be worse than the calculated ambush murder of strangers peacefully going about their business.

We've pointed out that there's no functional difference between the rifles that operate basically like any number of self loading rifles whether they're black or brown or have "evil" looking ergonomic furniture or not in arguing against the Anti propaganda demonizing ARs or AKs or "Assault Weapons/Rifles".

How do we handle the fact that an SKS was used in this attack? What argument against Antis doesn't fall into the potential trap that all self loading rifles should be banned now that our own argument that the singling out the AR looking rifles is irrelevant since evil people and "normal" criminals won't be hampered in committing murderes if all "ARs" were confiscated?

:confused: Are we CERTAIN it was an SKS? I only ask because in a news report I heard, the Dallas Chief of Police said it was an AR-15.

As to how we should handle it .... while I would suggest that many types of rifles would be equally useful for a sociopath who wished to commit such an atrocity, such as a Winchester 1894 in .30-30 .... a similar Marlin or other lever-action ....even a bolt action (there are some that take detachable magazines) and others, IMO many antigunners treat gun control (especially when it comes to rifles like the AR-15) like a religion.
I seriously doubt they can be "reached."
The way to "deal" with them (if they're politicians) is to defeat them when voting. Not much else is going to work.
My 2¢.
 
We hide behind definitions but the SKS is a true military weapon.
If we insist on trying to let features or definitions be the fight it will be the hill we die on. There are (much to my approval) millions of guns with detachable magazines or those like the SKS that are very efficient and effective.
We will continue to see them used for evil, what we need to do is keep them in the public eye and make the case that evil will use any mechanism available.

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Before going too far, and for argument only, if the rifle was an SKS are we sure it wasn't modified to take "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" :rolleyes: rather then 10-round stripper clips? More facts from reliable sources are required before jumping to conclusions.
 
It appeared to be an SKS-M, which is modified to take AK magazines (or was using those stupid Tapco duckbills, which I find hard to believe given the shooter's combat effectiveness). Functionally no different from an AK, or Mini-14, or VZ58 --and rather than a argumentative 'disadvantage,' this is rather an important point we should be driving home to anti-gunners.

We've been saying forever that there is no practical or functional difference between "assault weapons" and friendly-looking autoloading rifles. This shooting proves that point, to be frank, just as the VA Tech shooting showed that magazine capacity has no effect at all on a shooter's ability to wreck havok on the unarmed.

The only thing this shooting did prove, is that when a single attacker is immediately engaged by a number of armed opponents, as he was here, the threat to the unarmed is diminished (hence all the video being taken during the firefight), the chance for escape made impossible, along with the ability to continue inflicting bloodshed (I understand almost all officers shot were hit in the initial volley before they could respond)

Had a white supremacist engaged a group of protesters that included riflemen like the guy suspected early on, they would be at a similar advantage against him, compared to mass of helpless rabbits funneled into a killing zone (see the sniper massacre on the Syrian Bazaar that killed dozens early in that conflict)

TCB
 
We've been saying forever that there is no practical or functional difference between "assault weapons" and friendly-looking autoloading rifles.

And I think that's the pint of view if the question.

In light of that...what's to counter the potential effort to just ban all semi autos with detachable mags?
 
How quickly was he actually shooting, does the self loading part even matter? Could the same damage have been done with plain old bolt action hunting rifle? I'm asking about before he was cornered.
 
Certainly there are bolt actions that can accept detachable magazines of greater capacity than 5 rounds. Are we to then go down that rabbit hole and relinquish them as well?
Presently we are talkin YBg about one man with a semi auto, 40 years down the road after the libs get our AR's what happens when 3-4 shooters in a concerted effort use bolt action or single shots to wreak havoc.

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That is their goal after all. I've been waiting for some wacko to go nuts with a lever action.

If we get the other side to openly admit that end goal before the step of banning all semis is achieved it makes it that much harder for them. You cannot expect support of those that shoot 10 rounds a year at deer after you've admitted you want their guns next.

I don't think we do motives here and that's where we need to shift the discussion. When the other side focuses on the guns we can at least make it clear that the type doesn't much matter.
 
This is semantics. We know the differences between different types of actions. That's immaterial to most gun grabbers. Only one thing matters, GUN, and they won't be happy till they're all gone.

Or they have everyone in the position of Barney from Mayberry, one round only, and in your pocket, not in the gun.
 
We know what the goal of the Antis is so what's the point of wasting our breath ranting about that? Focus on how we handle this information and what we can do to turn this to support our arguments. We're not here to wenge about the Antis. We know their game.
 
I heard one of the retired military guys on fox say it was an Russian SKS with a ten round mag. If you have stripper clips it's a fast loading gun and deadly. A true work horse and reliable, and we all know the 7.62 is a deadly round. I can't count how many politicians have commented on the AR and 30 round mags with this incident. If it holds true that it's a ten rd mag I can't wait to hear what they say about it then.
 
I know this isn't going to win anyone over on the anti side, but here's my take on the current situation.

Whether we're talking about an AR, an AK, the SKS, whatever, they're going to say that it's a "weapon of war". They claim that they were designed to kill as many people as possible people as effectively as possible. The truth is, they're absolutely correct. There's no point in trying to hide it.

The thing so many of us, and all of them fail to admit, is that we have the second amendment specifically to guarantee us these "weapons of war", because we may need them to fight a war on our own soil some day.

Now, the most foolish of the antis will claim that us peons with our little pea shooters don't stand a chance against a tyrannical government anymore, and they actually believe it. The more cunning among them will say the same, but they know it's not actually true. They're just trying to convince us that they've already won, and that we should lay down our arms and surrender.

We all know that these attacks will continue, no matter what. As long as man exists he will lash out and harm his fellow man. If we could wave a magic wand and make all the guns disappear, he would turn to bombs. Eliminate them and they turn to blades. Eliminate every possible tool and we will kill each other with fists and feet.

The truth is, vulnerability to violence is the cost of true liberty. The founding fathers knew it, and were willing to accept the risks, for the rewards far outweigh them. They were right. Our freedom is what has enabled us to to rise to such great heights.

The rest of the world points to us and laughs. We don't need those silly little guns they say. We should all be more like them they say. They've all been so brainwashed by propaganda that they don't realize that they don't have actual freedom. Their governments have a monopoly on power and let them think they're free.

We have a unique situation in the USA. There was a big chunk of land that we were able to colonize, and soon afterwards liberate from the tyrants that wished to keep us under their thumb. Yes, there were some bad things that happened. The Native Americans were nearly exterminated. We have a dark history of slavery, the echoes of which still haunt us.

Nonetheless, we have made tremendous progress. Nowhere else on the planet do so many people of different cultures exist in such relative harmony. The media wants us to think tensions are high and that things are getting worse, when in fact the opposite is true. There is more opportunity and equality now then there ever has been, and we just keep moving forward.

We have flourished because of our freedom, and we have held on to that freedom for so long because we have the means to defend it with force. Those that wish to deprive us of that means wish to deprive us of our liberty, whether they realize it or not.

We must stand together if we're going to hold on to all of this. Use your four boxes of liberty in order, but whatever you do, do not give up that ammo box. It's the most important one you have, and you may very well need it sometime soon.
 
The lowly SKS was the murder weapon. A rifle without a pistol grip or rail system or "folding thing that goes up".
Actually we don't know that yet.
Before going too far, and for argument only, if the rifle was an SKS are we sure it wasn't modified to take "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" rather then 10-round stripper clips? More facts from reliable sources are required before jumping to conclusions.
Exactly correct. In fact, there are some SKS variants that don't need modification to use "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" and there is a huge assortment of aftermarket modifications for SKS rifles.

Was it this kind of SKS?

[resize=700] sks_simonov_1_1_by_skworus-d41evw8.jpg [/resize]

Or did it look like this?

1965657_02_sks_with_pistol_grip_stock_375_640.jpg

Or maybe like this?

4ec3a4152ab8e11ebeaadcb37b89b379.jpg

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves on this...
 
Just to add to the confusion, so far the news has reported it was AR-15 as well as an SKS. I've also seen 2 different sources today report it was actually an AK-74. SOFRep has pictures posted of that rifle in the rubble after the shooter was taken out.

What if he had more than one? What if some of the reports are all spin by the liberal media? I saw the raw video of the officer being shot by the columns but I can't recall seeing a long mag on it as he moved around.

Until the official word comes out, what we do know is that antigunners will use any one and all of the above to press their point.
 
As of late the Antis have fixated on the AR and we've said there's no important difference between any of the semi-auto rifles so there's no point in fixating on the AR AND that all rifles combined in homicides in the U.S. don't equal knives OR clubs OR even hands and feet (DOJ UCR) and that even mass shootings don't typically involve "assault weapons" (Mother Jones mass shooting tables).

Now we have Dallas where a rifle/carbine was clearly used in the attack that may have been an AR/AK/SKS.

Do we wait it out and hope that there aren't any more mass shooting copycats looking for their 15 minutes of infamy out of the barrel of a gun so the public will have these incidents drop off their collective radar or can we think of ways to counter the Antis who are busily working to make these tragedies into leverage for their agenda? What can we think of that will persuade the public to question the press and the Antis when they start spouting from their scripts on disarming the public or that the risk they feel isn't a real risk for them individually just because it comes out of the screen like their local weather?
 
Its seems most in this thread want to avoid the question all together or pick it apart to make it not relevant to ask.


I think its a very valid question, and if I may hso, I'll paraphrase in hopes that more replies will be relevant a further the discussion.


Paraphrasing:

'We' have said that it doesn't matter which semi auto a .223/5.56 (for example) is shot from because the cartridge is the same and the rate of fire is relatively the same.


We have cleverly boxed ourselves into a tight corner if the Anti's say.....

"Ban all semi autos... the NRA says they're all equally capable murder machines!"



I am of the opinion that we need to do a better job of presenting Govt sourced facts, such as the FBI data.

Along with that, we need to shift the focus off of the weapon and back onto the motive.

For ex, when talking about suicide, they talk about preventing people from wanting to commit suicide. They talk about warning signs and ways to support the person and ways to get help.

They have come to the conclusion that you cant stop someone from committing suicide if they're hell bent on doing it, and instead, have shifted to addressing the motives of suicide.
 
Post 17 summed up the truth quite well, problem is I don't believe the people are willing to live with that reality and these attacks will keep breaking them down into submission.
The media and left will continue to propagandize that guns are the problem starting with the lowest hanging fruit.
The best counter is to educate the history of the country, how we are unique in the world, the power of the individual and the Golden Rule.
It may be to late given that much of our population is living comfortably on the states teat and sees little to no reason to behave as autonomous men and women within a land that still has great opportunity.
In short guns are not the problem in the absence of the evil that we are seeing with hate crimes and terrorism.
Crime and realistic appraisal of who and why they are being committed needs to be brought to the forefront rather than transforming and nationalizing police.
 
Again, aside from our own morbid interest it doesn't matter.
There are hundreds of threads of us decrying the machine gun registry, if it were repealed would that not have all of us who wished to have a weapon of war to do so?
With what looks like an increase in use of semi automatics with detachable magazines I think the genie is out of the bottle and arguing with the left over semantics is bound to fail.

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