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Dan Wesson vs 627?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by westernrover, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    Tips for gunbroker?

    I'm in a conundrum, the more tips I give out, the more perspective buyers I'm competing against!

    I watch for auctions with plenty of GOOD pictures from highly rated sellers. Don't be afraid to ask questions or for more pictures. I watch for low starting bids with only a few days left with no bidders. It doesn't hurt if you're comfortable popping one open to fix a small issue or two. A good picture down the sighting plane will quickly reveal a canted barrel. I typically avoid "buy it now" auctions. Penny start auctions typically attract a bunch of bidders and will typically get around market price. I've won a number of very lightly used new guns that spouses vetoed if sellers are to believed.

    You send your money and FFL contract info (or call your FFL and have them send it over) and fill out a 4473 when it shows up. Easy as that.
     
  2. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I’m fortunate to live in a place that allows for face-to-face private sales. I can handle a potential purchase before making a decision, but I’ve not encountered something other than as-represented. OP, if you have a similar option, that may be better than gunbroker.
     
  3. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    If the only tool you have is a hammer, you can become quite skillful in using it.

    What skills are you wanting and what are you wanting to use your skills for?

    Your wanting to gain speedloader skills that puts out moon clipped revos. I’ve got lots of them from various manufacturers that all do something for me, just depends on what I intend to do.
     
  4. Armorer 101

    Armorer 101 Member

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    My favorite IPSC / pin gun, in revolver class was a 25-2 six inch, 45 ACP, built by Mike Palisco (sp) out of LA. I used Packmeyer Signature grips on it. With a Bill Rogers built holster rig. Mike turned it into a DA only gun with an adjustable sear break. The full moon clip setup is way past speed loaders. I do have big hands.

    If you can stand the gaff, the old, 50s Python requires nothing to be a great revolver in every direction. But finding a Python mechanic today might be a chore.
    Ed
     
  5. hemiram

    hemiram Member

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    I currently own 4 .357 revolvers, an S&W 28-2 6", a DW 15-2 with 4" and 6" vented heavy barrels, a DW 715 with 4" and 6" barrels, and a SAR SR38, which is a clone of an S&W 586. Of all of them, the 715 is the one I would keep till "the end". It's accurate, got a really nice SA trigger, and custom sights. On top of that, it's was a steal at $269 with 3 grips, tool, and spare parts in 2006, the first and best deal I ever got on Gunbroker. Once you understand how the DW works, it's insanely easy to fix if anything breaks and that's unlikely. One of my past guns broke the hand spring, and another one came with a clipped main spring that needed to be replaced. That's pretty much it over the more than a dozen I've owned over the last 41 years, all bought used. I did have to replace a bulged barrel once, but that was the shooter being a dope. That was me. $25, and I was shooting again.
     
  6. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Armorer 101

    Do you maybe mean Mike Plaxco? I seem to recall his name from IPSC some years ago.
     
  7. robhof

    robhof Member

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    I've gotten a few; 6 to be exact, guns from Gunbroker, all were in very good condition, some maybe not as good as described, but good shooters and at a reasonable price. I check the ratings of the seller and read all or any negative reviews they may have before bidding, I check out previous auctions for the same gun and see what they've sold for, giving an average of what they're currently worth, look at pictures carefully and ask for more if you can, and many have a return policy, and any serious discrepancy can be forwarded to Gunbroker for review.
     
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  8. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    I have a PC 627 made in 2009, and a PC 625 made in 2017. I also own a couple of 686s, I also own a very large number of old blued Smiths. The New PC guns are great modern guns. The finish and the fit is not equal to the older guns but the function, accuracy and durability is as good or better. I do not own any Dan Wessons, I read about how great they are though.
    The PC guns have very smooth actions, and the charge hole chamfering is obvious on both of mine. Both have interchangeable front sights so you can put a different front sight on if you like in about 2 minutes. Both PC guns had a heavy rebound spring and needed a change to a lighter spring. If you like moon clips, they can be useful in competition, the 627 has that and the others you mention do not. My PC 627 is 100% with or without the moon clips and there is no reason you cannot use any speedloader with it. Get the PC 627 and shoot it first to see what it needs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  9. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    A good take away, I look for "shooters" not "safe queens" on gunbroker. I expect some hidden imperfections. Not necessarily pitting and heavy holster wear. I like SS guns because they can very easily be polished up to whatever level of finish I want. If I want something in immaculate condition and mirrored bluing, I buy in person.
     
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  10. robhof

    robhof Member

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    I did get an immaculate ROA stainless on GB, but only because the seller listed it in B/p pistols and not ROA, and the posted pic was blurry, but I knew what a ROA looked like and jumped on it. gun 001.JPG I did add the Scott grips and I do shoot it, I don't buy safe queens.
     
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  11. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    Looks like a good score to me @robhof!
     
  12. forrest r

    forrest r Member

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    Interesting thread but it's vague at best. Not singling anything out just reading & about the only thing I got out of it was the size of the revolver was the most important thing.

    Op never really said what the intended use of the revolver was, jack of all trades/master of none??? It seems most people that buy the 8-shot 627's are using them to play games with using 38 s&w ammo and the most they're asking out of them is to hit a 6" circle @ 25yds. Which makes me wonder just how "good" a trigger has to be??? Does it need to be tuned to the point that you have to use specific primers & fast burning powders?
    Long hands and long fingers but can only use certain grips on a n-frame revolver? I don't have long hands or fingers but I used grips like these on the n-frames. Typical 2 handed grips, I can shoot 1 handed with these grips but the revolver will move around with hotter loads.
    2G8nnTn.jpg
    Used this 624 off and on for several years for nra bullseye (25yd/50yd), the trigger was tuned to the point I used federal match primers.
    VorIu2C.jpg
    The real issue with the n-frames is the balance of them. The bore rides higher in the hand which in turn makes bigger differences in the balance between full cylinders and the last 1 or 2 shots. Those are 220gr hbwc's, you're thinking about using a 8-shot n-frame with a shorter bbl. If all's your asking out of the pistol is to hit a 6" circle using 2 hands @ 25yds, the balance of the revolver is there but it isn't as important as using 1 hand hitting a 3 1/2" circle @ 50yds.
    You might think the shorter bbl masks the difference in balance (5" vs 6 1/2" pictured above) but it doesn't. The balance difference is in felt recoil and trigger control. Put hot 357 loads in this 7-shot l-comp and there's huge differences between the 1st shot and the last shot even with a compensated bbl.
    5vi2mrE.jpg

    Perhaps the op could post what real expectations there is for the revolver.
    Just how much trigger work is needed for what type of shooting?
    What is the majority of the ammo that will be used?
    I'm ne expert by any means but I do own custom built ppc revolvers, performance center revolver, tuned dw's (tuned by gunsmith) along with custom twist bbl.'s/lengths for the dw's (bullet weight/length specific) and custom bbl shrouds/custom sights/and of course muzzle breaks along with standard/factory bbl.'s & shrouds.
     
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  13. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

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    I agree with a number of forrest r’s statements. The expectations are kind of vague yet the OP is able to rule out everything under the sun.

    There are thousands of decent used guns on gunbroker that have probably a box of ammo or less through them. Look at pictures, asking for more pictures, spending hours searching for the right deal will help get you familiar with what is a good deal vs average deal. And it will take many hours of watching auctions, searching through auctions and researching the various models that have been produced to save that $100 on a good deal. Is that a worthwhile trade off for you?

    The negative experiences with new guns and used guns is some what out of the norm. I’ve bought guns from every decade going back 140 years and it sounds like the OP has had much worse luck then I’ve had. If your expectations are that a gun has to be perfect than that pretty much limits you to buying something in person.

    Realistically if you buy something that’s lightly used and a decent price it should be easy to recoup the purchase price if you don’t like it. However limiting it to barrel lengths longer than 4” and shorter than 11” over all means you are basically stuck with guns that are going to be hard to find.

    Surprisingly a quick glance at S&W’s and Ruger’s website shows numerous 5” options to choose from, however you’ll probably have to order one unless you get lucky and can find a local shop that has one in stock.
     
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  14. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Generally, yeah, they're very slicked up and some will only light Fed primers. But it's not because the shots in those games are particularly hard - truly difficult shots are rare in most of the practical shooting games. The hardness comes from doing it under great time pressure - literally infinite time pressure, in that, if your opponent gets the same hits as you but does it .01 seconds faster, he/she wins. There's no "fast enough" speed in most cases, no "time limit" to come in under... only faster or slower than the (next) fastest shooter.

    Geared towards that kind of shooting, the focus isn't on getting the SA pull into bullseye territory - in fact, many are DAO-only. It's about getting the trigger smooth and light enough to run it fast and repeatedly.
     
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  15. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    These are valid questions and your experience allows an accurate relative comparison.

    When I used to shoot PPC, I used a bull barrel K-frame tuned by Bill Davis. That trigger was butter smooth and was as light as I thought a DA revolver trigger could be tuned and still reliably ignite a primer.

    The first time I rolled the trigger back on Randy Lee's Apex Tactical tuned N-frame ICORE gun, I was stunned. I couldn't believe that that light a DA trigger could light off ant primer, much less a magnum one. After running a couple of cylinder full through it, I was a believer. I also found that my technique was sorely lacking in taking advantage of the smoothness of the trigger...I wasn't stroking the trigger fast enough.

    There is no current Performance Center tuned revolver that can match a Apex Tactical tuned revolver, because the PC is restricted to S&W designed parts. Randy redesigned the geometry of the hammer for better leverage.

    How good?
    Good enough to allow splits in the .20-.25 sec range (out to 15 yards?) without affecting accuracy
     
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  16. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

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    The Apex hammer has lower inertia too. This no small thing. A hammer with lower inertia runs faster, and imparts a more powerful whack to the primer, and you need power to light off primers, so you can tune the action more aggressively before getting into reliability issues. A simple "Carmonized" hammer, with the back half of the hammer whacked off, has very low inertia, and a revolver so equipped can run with a pretty low DA trigger weight (though with Apex's general tuning skills, they're able to get the action really light).

    To be honest, I've heard the "better leverage" thing numerous times, but I've never understood how the Apex hammer could be engineered for better leverage: The position of the hammer and trigger bosses (i.e. the pivot points) stay the same; and since the stock trigger is used, the position of the trigger nose (which interacts with the sear on the hammer) stays the same vis á vie the pivots. Logic tells me the position of the hammer sear has to stay the same as well, then. Essentially, it's a factory lever (trigger) working on another lever (hammer), and the position of the fulcrums and the nose/sear interface don't change, so I've never understood how leverage can, either. :confused:
     
  17. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I never asked because I knew I wouldn't understand it if explained. I was good at math, geometry, and physics, but I wasn't trained as an engineer...Randy is; I guess was
     
  18. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

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    Firearm hammers fascinate me - you might think they'd simply be designed to fit the rest of the lockwork and frame, but I suspect they aren't nearly so willy nilly, and are, instead, highly engineered pieces. If I were designing a revolver from scratch, I'd figure our the basic design elements of the hammer first. Correctly engineering one from scratch to optimally work in an otherwise factory gun is no small feat.
     
  19. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Member

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    Read this thread the other day. I see we haven't reached consensus quite yet. Interesting adds by everyone. Thanks, I am learning.
     
  20. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Have you ever compared the location of the holes for the pins?
     
  21. MrBorland

    MrBorland Moderator

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    I did a few years ago, but I don’t recall the details. I do recall the Apex was lighter, with a Center of Gravity closer to the pivot, both of which helped reduce its inertia.
     
  22. westernrover

    westernrover Member

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    I'm just trying to narrow down the field. In the simplest terms, I've found heavy and long revolvers easier for me to shoot well than light, short guns. However, there's an upper limit to what I can carry. Based on what I carry now, I'd like to stay under 12" overall length because I know if it's longer it's going to be irritating to carry, getting into the truck, and sitting while driving. I think ~11" is a reasonable limit for carry.

    This is a fair question, but I don't really like to justify a gun to other people. I described the use of the gun for skill-acquisition because I think it's important to train, practice and develop skills, but I also carry what I train with and train with what I carry. We've all heard the advice to "carry what you shoot best." I'm not new to carry, but I haven't always followed that advice. I've compromised by carrying things that are easier to carry. You could say I'm still compromising on barrel-length, but I'm compromising less.

    I don't know the answer to those questions. All I'm looking for is a trigger that makes my job easier to do well. I have a factory stock S&W now that has a 14 lb double-action trigger. I do alright with it, but I think it's fair to say that it doesn't make my job as easy as it could be. I do know I can shoot a single-action better than it. Is that because the trigger is better or is it because the barrel and sight radius are much longer, or is it because the weight is double? I asked those questions in another recent thread. All I know is I can get better than 14 lbs. How much better than that is going to be a help, I don't know. I don't feel a need for anything especially exotic, but want to know if a PC-tuned action will make doing a good job easier.

    What doesn't fit me are the rubber over-molded grips that cover the backstrap. Since the original post, I've tried more grips on N frames and found that as long as the backstrap is exposed, it's fine. I primarily shoot with one hand.

    I'm not familiar enough with L and N frames to know this by experience, but I can see the difference in bore center height. I hadn't thought about the 8-shot balance changing so much as I realized 8 cartridges would add a little over an ounce more weight than 6. I mentioned that I questioned before what made a big revolver easier for me to shoot than a J frame, whether it was the longer barrel and sight radius or the single-action trigger versus the heavy double-action. The conclusion that I came to is that it's the weight more than anything. It's not that the short sight radius and trigger don't make things more difficult, but I think the weight makes the biggest difference. I shoot hot .357's because again, I train with what I carry. While the weight helps with recoil, the long-barrel tends to add a lot. But what I notice is irrespective of recoil, even for the first shot, the inertia of a more massive gun better resists anything that disturbs its alignment with the target.

    I hope you've got a better idea by now, but to recap:
    I only need enough trigger/action work to avoid my job being unnecessarily hard to do well.
    My job is practice on my range, mostly combat-style targets. I primarily shoot with one hand.
    Majority of ammo is full loads of H110 with 158 gr jacketed bullets.
    FWIW, lately, I've been looking at used Mod. 27's.
     
  23. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I'm sorry if I missed this earlier...it is one of those easy to answer questions.

    What make a J-frame harder to shoot, even on the first shot, is the geometry of the action...there just isn't enough room in the small frame for optimal leverage as there is in the next size up K-frame. The balance point for many people is between the K-frame and the L-frame. The grips are the same size, with all the difference being larger cylinders and the frame window needed to contain it
     
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