DD214 not sufficient for VA CCW permit?

[MJRW]

Friend of mine just told me that Manassas court just called asking for an explanation of his training to complete the application of his CCW permit. He gave them his DD214 which from what I recall, more than covered the requirements. Sounded odd to me.

 

[Devonai]

Maybe somebody noticed that his MOS wasn't one that would include a lot of pistol training. Most of the 11Bs that I know, for example, don't get a whole lot of trigger time with the M9. Still, it should have been sufficient.

 

[JohnBT]

Here's the list from the VA State Police site:
__________________________

The court may further require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:

Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

( => ) Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.
_______________________

"...or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services."

Augusta County accepted my father's 2 discharges from WWII and he was in the 13th Air Force. (His re-up papers got lost somewhere northwest of New Guinea in 1943 and they discharged him before anybody knew they were lost. He didn't have a way home anyhow.)

John

 

[The Reaper]

The problem with VA, and why we don't enjoy reciprocity with more states, is that the training requirement is met only when the judge says it is. I have had people in certain counties inform me that they did not need to submit proof of training. Others have had to show specific types of training. All up to the Judge.

You'll notice a lot of the things that "qualify" don't involve handguns at all and some don't involve any gun handling.

 

[RKCheung]

Back when I was in VA, I just used a copy of my military ID card for the training qualification. I assume a 214 would've worked too. This was in Fairfax County so YMMV.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Problem is that many of the people in the clerks office do not have even a basic understanding of the law. It is not uncommon for the person behind the counter to never have looked at the text of the law. In Chesterfield county we had someone at the courthouse that would refuse all kinds of people saying that what they turned in would not suffice. Many times I would have to send someone down there with a printout of the text of the law to get things done. I would suggest you do the same. As JohnBT pointed out the text of the law is available at the state police website, print it out and show it to them. If they refuse to accept it (they might) ask them where they are exempted from the state law (that tends to piss them off). We eventually had a phone conference with The Clerk of the courts in Chesterfield and to her credit she did know the law and seems to have corrected things with her staff. An easy alternative would be to contact the people at the VCDL (vcdl.org), they are interested in this stuff even if you can resolve things yourself, it gives them something to go to the gun friendly legislators about to help fix certain problems statewide.

 

[RWK]

MJRW,

Six years ago, when I first obtained my Virginia CCW, I provided the Fairfax County Court with a brief (approximately half a typed page) explanation of my firearms training and expertise along with my DD-214. Since, as indicated by Jack 98c/11b, most court personnel do not have the first clue re military training or duties, I felt this was a prudent approach. I recommend your friend amend his application with a similar statement. In addition, I suggest that virtually any honorably discharged or retired military member can easily make a case for adequate weapons training and familiarity (training and hands-on practice with the M-16 and the M-9, watch standing/sentry duties with the same, periodic weapons re-feminization and re-qualification, etc.).

In the event the permit is denied, the applicant has statutory right to meet with the Circuit Court judge. A BRIEF discussion – accompanied by clear, concise documentation – that: (1) highlights the law and the precedents re DD-214 use and (2) emphasizes the applicant’s qualifications (military weapons training PLUS good citizen, mature judgment, etc.) may well convince the judge that the Deputy Clerk who prepared the “vetting package†was unfamiliar with the law and cause a reversal in the initial determination. The judge will, in my opinion, be assessing the applicant’s aggregate stability and citizenship, not just weapons training. Therefore, decent dress, demeanor, articulateness, and so forth would be just as important as a strong, well-documented presentation.

 

[Leatherneck]

While the DD-214 should suffice, it's still not a bad idea to get some training from a qualified CHP instructor. There are lots of aspects to CCW for personal protection that are never even discussed in Military training. Yes, even USMC training!

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[SapperLeader]

I ran into the same problem getting my permit using my dd-214. I had both rifle and pistol qualification on there, but since I was in the national guard, the judge wanted more . I argued with the court for 10 months(I am on active duty right now, and didnt have the time to take any courses.) tried writing some letters to the attorney general for the state, and finally caved in and took a nra course. Had the permit three weeks after that. Sometimes, being stubborn doesnt pay off. In Va, it all depends on the judge and the county. I know three other guys in my unit that used dd-214 and had thier permit inside a month.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

If anyone here has the kind of problem SapperLeader did then you definately need to talk to the people at the VCDL. If the presiding judge won't abide by the law of the land then they should not be on the bench. 18.2-308 is very clear, they have no choice but to accept the DD-214. If they fail to do so they are violating their oath of office. If a judge has contempt for the law then why should anyone before the bench not hold the system in contempt.

 

[tcsd1236]

As has been stated, many military people get ZERO training on handguns; given that, I don't see why a DD214 is accepted as proof of training.

 

[SapperLeader]

Va requirments is aimed more towards gun safety than gun handingly in my opinion, Plus in my case, Ive qualified sharpshooter rifle, and expert handgun, so they didn't even have that as an excuse. The AG assistant that wrote back to me, was kind enough to include the statute that says that training is up to the discretion of the judge. That bothers me a little, and I may contact VCDL when I get off my current deployment and achieve some more free time.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

The following is from the Virginia State Police website and is an excerpt from the law governing CCW in the state.

*****

G. The court may further require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:

1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.

*****

As I read it the judge has no choice but to accept any of the training listed above. I have not had any correspondence with the AGs office but I have spoken with a few of the legislators who wrote the law and it all seems clear to me. This quote seems to cover it "but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence" and there is no ambiguity here that I can detect.

Call or write the VCDL, even if you don't intend to push the issue.

 

[Cortland]

Just to add to the absurdity, note that completion of a Virginia hunters safety course is deemed sufficient training. Now, this is nice in that VDGIF courses are free and can typically be taken in one day, but participants never handle a firearm, and firearms safety is only a small part of the instruction (and even then primarily with respect to rifles).

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Yep, several of the above examples listed never require even touching a firearm of any kind.

 

[The Reaper]

You'll notice that the judge is limited to what is on the list, but not limited to any one thing on the list. It is still up to the individual judge as to what they will accept from the list so long as they don't deviate from the list.

In my neck of the woods a guy was just approved with a DD214 that was over 30 years old. So for some judges it is not a problem. As I mentioned before there are counties that do not require you submit any proof of training, because the law says "may".

So until the legislature standardizes the proof of training requirement so that there is no variation, we will continue to see it applied this way, and VA permits will continue to not be recognized by some states. They just need to change that word "may" to "will", delete "further" and it seems to me we're set.

So contact VCDL and ask them to work on getting the law cleaned up so that VA permits will be recognized in more states. The restaurant ban is important also and that is why I write the VCDL checks as often as I can afford it.

It's so fun living in a state that doesn't have many absolutes when dealing with firearms. Drives some people nuts. :banghead:

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Reaper, have not had any law classes in several years but I read the law a bit differently. The way I read it the court may require proof of competence and the individual can use any of the items listed and that the court can not require additional proof of competence.

I may well be wrong but it seems to me that;

1. They (the court) can require demonstrated competence.

2. They must accept anything that is on the list.

3. They can't require anything above one of the listed items.

Is there a lawyer here who can comment. I have discused this with the president of the VCDL and he, while not a lawyer, agrees with me in my interpretation. We may well both be wrong, can someone add a more educated understanding?

Thanks for the input.

 

[The Reaper]

I checked with a lawyer over a year ago and his take was that it's up to the judge as to what they will accept on the list. The judge has some wiggle room in that they may accept anything on the list but nothing says they must accept anything on the list if they don't deem it as meeting the requirement. That bit of legal advice is worth every pennie I paid for it, which is zero.

So I'll go with my lawyer and I are wrong, and judges are absolutely required to accept any and all of those items on the list without question. I really hope it works that way, but I doubt it does or will. Not sure who will be a test case to force the issue, but maybe someone will. Maybe the AG will issue some edict to all the judges telling them what's what. Hope springs eternal.

 

[JohnBT]

Back when I was preparing my application to the City of Richmond, I knew that proof of training was required so I called downtown and asked the Clerk what kind of training was acceptable. The answer was "There is no list of approved classes." I asked about hunter safety classes, one-day classes, etc. Still the same answer..."Just go take one." Just to be safe I paid for a one-day class that did involve shooting. Gee, I shot 100% at 7.5 yards slow fire.

One of the VA counties my dad has lived in accepted the hunter safety class certificate. He said it was real nice sitting in there with all those youngsters getting ready for their first deer hunt. The instructor was a pretty good deer hunter, but he knew that going in because they attend the same church. Same deal with the Clerk of the Court. Gotta love small towns.

John

 

[JERRY]

in prince william county i was asked for "something else" in addition to my dd214 which had pistol and rifle quals on it. exp in '91, so i brought in my exp in '96 commission when i was a trooper, and the rest is history. got my renewal without questions.

 

[jacketch]

My 34 yr old DD214 was accepted without question.

Thank God we have the right to bear arms!

 

[4thHorseman]

Same here. My DD-214 also accepted with no questions asked.
The clerk told me that everyone in the miltary had to have a basic firearm course. I know I did.