Defensive Ammunition 101

[RetiredUSNChief]

I think the benefits of flight control wads are lost in a home defense situation. Heck, that stuff stays inside the wad until after it has traveled a little ways right? Well if the buckshot-filled wad hits the target, wouldn't that equal one large hole?

Also using "law enforcement" marked ammo for self defense is NOT a bad idea. You could say "I wanted to use what the local police use for defense" and IMHO that would go over pretty well.

Having looked at the results in the Box O' Truth, I'd say whether the buckshot remains in the wad or not at household distances is a moot point. They BOTH equal one large hole.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Oh! I still like #1 buck for HD work, no magical "flight control" wad needed. !

 

[Zach S]

What if your 9 pellet 00 shells are marked "LAW ENFORCEMENT" and so are the boxes, and you are not L/E?
I don't think this ammo is illegal to possess but may be scrutinized under a self defense situation.

It may be, yes. But at that point, so would anything you use. You know, a S&W MP9 was designed for Military and Police, hence the name. Buckshot is for hunting, not defense. In any kind of SD shooting, there are all kinds of cards the DA and press might play.

Orginally, LE buckshot simply meant "low recoil." I ordered Federal LE132 00 (9 pellet 3dram) online for a few years before seeing its commercial cousin, H132 00, on any shelves locally.

I dont see it being an issue unless you have an overzealous ADA trying to make a name for himself, or desperate to make a case against you, since he doesnt have one.

...shotgun Yoda Louis Awerbuck...

Lol. Priceless, that is. Use it, I will.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Lol. Priceless, that is

But not original with me...

http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000051.html

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-14585.html

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/09/well-thats-interesting.html

etc.

 

[forgiven]

I use the Critical Defense load in my shotty

 

[Sauer Grapes]

My shotguns are all of the ''sporting'' type. Not sure why I never invested in a ''HD'' type.

 

[Robert149]

Does Suprema make a 3" 00 buck, 12 gage shell?

 

[wbstx11]

We learned in Viet Nam that "# 4 buck" (27 of .24-inch pellets) was a much more effective anti-personnel stopper than "000 buck" (eight .36-inch pellets). I would consider our experience there as real live test data. Basically, you have a much higher opportunity to hit something critical and the wound channel isn't much different compared to the additional wounds; but if you're only 5 ft away just about any load will do the job. I think that inside a house a 20ga with birdshot would be very effective. (I have a Remy 1100 20ga hanging on the back of the headboard)

 

[Panzerschwein]

We learned in Viet Nam that "# 4 buck" (27 of .24-inch pellets) was a much more effective anti-personnel stopper than "000 buck" (eight .36-inch pellets). I would consider our experience there as real live test data. Basically, you have a much higher opportunity to hit something critical and the wound channel isn't much different compared to the additional wounds; but if you're only 5 ft away just about any load will do the job. I think that inside a house a 20ga with birdshot would be very effective. (I have a Remy 1100 20ga hanging on the back of the headboard)

I am not aware of much 000 buckshot being used in Vietnam. 00, certainly. #4, yes. There was some military #4 produced. But 000? That's news to me.

 

[wbstx11]

I stand corrected, yes both 00 (9 pellets?) and #4 were available. This was in '69, and some 12 ga pumps were available - basically an option for the "point man" when we were in jungle. The M79 shot round was ineffective. Frankly, I preferred my M16 to a shotgun - ammo was limited for the 12 when we got into a firefight. Same reason no one carried a 45 either.

 

[vito]

Any thoughts on Hornady Critical Defense shotgun ammunition? I use Hornady Critical Defense in my handguns but I had never even heard of them making shotgun ammo. Any recommendations? I see that it is carried on Cheaper than Dirt and is a bit more expensive than competing brands off OO buck 12 gauge.

 

[JamieC]

Vito, Hornady generally makes good stuff, I wouldn't have any issues loading it in my shotgun. That said, buy a box or two of it, get another brand or two, take 'em out to the range and pattern them, this way you'll learn what works in YOUR gun...learning is FUN!

 

[Merle1]

The dog gave enough warning for you to get the kids into your bedroom and the shotgun out. Behind you, your spouse is calling 911 on the cell phone and holding a revolver. You're covering the top of the stairs as heavy boots clump towards the top floor.....

What your shotgun is loaded with will be of less importance than skills, training, and tactics, but ammo does count. I field a couple queries each week, so this is of great interest to a large number of people.

Here's my opinions and advice based on fact, not movies or wishful thinking....

First,some stuff to avoid.

Less lethal stuff like rubber buckshot or tear gas loads. It's regarded as Use of Deadly Force even when the police do it, and they do it when backed up by cops with real ammo in their firearms. That's in case L/L doesn't work.

There's a clue there. Use something more likely to STOP someone when that is desperately needed.

Also, avoid anything with a name like "Ultimate Deathmaster" or skulls on the box.

Don't laugh,it happens and PT Barnum was right, one IS born every minute.

Anything exotic like Dragon's Breath, bird bombs, buckshot strung together on a wire,etc.10 thin dimes would also be a bad idea. So would be reloads.

Any shooting, justified or not, will be scrutinized under a microscope by LE folks who are not necessarily your friends.

There is a case for and against using birdshot. Sometimes it works well. Usually that's at extremely close range where the wad still contains the shot,acting like a giant Glaser Safety Slug.

Sometimes it creates ghastly but shallow wounds. Since STOPPING the threat usually involves disrupting the Central Nervous System grossly, these shallow wounds do not suffice.

Bigger pellets penetrate farther. The common name for big pellets is buckshot, from its use in deer hunting. Common US sizes are 000 ( about .36 caliber), 00 (.33), 1 (.30), and so on.

4 buck(.24) is the smallest. The largest buckshot that fits in a 20 gauge is 2 buck, but 3 is more available. 1 buck is the biggest for 16 gauge.

00 is the choice for most police agencies and lots of us civilians. 8 or 9 00 pellets at a reasonable muzzle velocity has plenty of energy to transfer and a lot of frontal surface to help that happen. Even three to five 00 or 000 pellets can make the miniscule 410 into an effective close range tool.

00 also patterns tighter than the smaller stuff, all else equal. And that brings up another point.

Some folks like spread, thinking it can make up for bad aim under stressful conditions.

Others, including me, prefer a small pattern putting ALL that energy into the right place.

Forensic experts tell me that the most effective load will have all the pellets in 5-8 inches.

Of course, the biggest pellet is one bore sized chunk of lead, usually called a "Slug".

These have some use for defense but not inside. If they are designed to penetrate a deer broadside and exit, they can pose a threat of overpenetration inside a building. Few of us are that rural that an errant slug poses no threat to anyone.

Buckshot will also penetrate drywall and similar materials, but less so. It behooves us to become adept wiith our defensive tools until we can place that load where it needs to be in a very short time frame and do so without endangering innocents.

Questions, comments, rants?

Comment about reloads: I have seen this same claim made for handgun ammo. I have also seen requests for published court cases where that was an issue. I have not yet seen any published responses, which makes me think it doesn't happen - OR is a rare circumstance.

Do you have any verifiable data on this?

Otherwise, I very much agree with your post.

 

[Slugnuts]

Buckshot, one more round if needed

 

[vito]

I'll admit to being a total novice in regard to shotguns. I recently bought a Mossberg 500, 20 inch barrel, with an extended magazine (it claims to be able to hold 8 but I could only get 7 in), and I have it loaded with Federal 00 buck. I've only been to the range with it once so far, and I'm getting myself familiar with handling and firing this gun. My question is: for my handguns I have trusted Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I see that Hornady makes a defensive 00 buck. Is there any substantial difference between various brands of 00 buck and does the Hornady offer anything to justify its higher cost?

 

[lemaymiami]

Buy what you like - but basic 2 3/4" 00buck with nine .33 cal pellets is a close range (less than fifty feet) fight ender - every time... if you do your part. I always advised to aim just a tiny bit low in that real life, heart stopping moment... It will serve you well.

All that's needed is to pattern whatever brand you're using so you know how it behaves in your weapon... and know just what the pattern spread will be at a given distance. Every old riot gun my agency used ( a mix of Remingtons and Mossbergs with 18 - 20" improved cylinder barrels) pretty much could be counted on to spread out at one inch per meter from the muzzle. In other words at 7 meters you could count on a 7" spread, etc. You'll have to verify that with your weapon though and whatever ammo you choose.

 

[cwl1862]

I keep my HD shotgun loaded with #4 Buck either standard 21-27 pellet variety or the Fed 2 3/4 Magnum 34 pellet variety I think at most home defense distances it will perform admirably. If it's good enough for the FBI it's good enough for me. Besides I live in a condo and I don't want a load of 00 buck sailing thru the BG, a wall or two and injuring or killing my neighbor; you get less penetration with 4 buck verses 00 or 000 buck. Yeah bird shot may work but I'm not willing to bet my life on it. #4 Buck has all the energy you need to knock a BG on his butt and effectively end the fight.

 

[strambo]

I keep my HD shotgun loaded with #4 Buck either standard 21-27 pellet variety or the Fed 2 3/4 Magnum 34 pellet variety I think at most home defense distances it will perform admirably. If it's good enough for the FBI it's good enough for me. Besides I live in a condo and I don't want a load of 00 buck sailing thru the BG, a wall or two and injuring or killing my neighbor; you get less penetration with 4 buck verses 00 or 000 buck. Yeah bird shot may work but I'm not willing to bet my life on it. #4 Buck has all the energy you need to knock a BG on his butt and effectively end the fight.

Agreed, #4 is a solid choice in a condo. 20-30 separate .24 cal wound tracks in the upper chest is great terminal performance. I have #1 Buck for the first few rounds backed by Hornady low recoil TAP 00 for the rest of the magazine and on the side saddle. The #1 patterns about 12" for me at 10yds (farther than any realistic shot in my small house) and the low recoil TAP does about 2.5" at that distance. The TAP is my suburban answer to a slug, it really allows me to reach out if needed, 7"-8" patterns at 25yds.

 

[Lycidas Janwor]

Anyone know about this Spartan buckshot? Real cheap, is it any good?

http://www.jgsales.com/12ga-spartan,-2.75,-00-buckshot,-9-pellet,-250rd-case.-p-60160.html

 

[ZVP]

Dave,

This "What if" scenario sounds like you are dealing with Drug Gangsters who are exceptionally hellbent on killing you, or Cops. I mean, who the hell storms up stairs with "Boots" in an all-out rampage?

I mean...can't you avoid the Drug Gangsters while giving the Cops no reason to make a suicide run against you? This sounds like Waco!

Bill

Great point,the spouse is holding a revolver!
All in all very rep ndable tools to defend family and castle.

 

[Shae1324]

I am 5' 2" and I weigh 138 lbs. The recovery time for someone of my size shooting 00 Buck is sightly longer than most of you fella's even despite training (five years in the USMC, OIF). Its just a simple matter of physics. I prefer the knock down of 00, and at the range its nice. But with an engagement distance of 25 feet in my single level home, and with 2 kids in the house, I load with 7 1/2 and stack a couple of 00 in my side saddle just in case. Over penetration is a very real issue, and let's face it, if it doesn't kill, it's still gonna hurt like hell. By that time, if five rounds of birdshot hasn't taken care of it, I've still got the 00 as back up.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Wolf 9 pellet stays in my shotguns. It's recoil isn't too bad and I can't help but think it's get it done.

 

[strambo]

I am 5' 2" and I weigh 138 lbs. The recovery time for someone of my size shooting 00 Buck is sightly longer than most of you fella's even despite training (five years in the USMC, OIF). Its just a simple matter of physics. I prefer the knock down of 00, and at the range its nice. But with an engagement distance of 25 feet in my single level home, and with 2 kids in the house, I load with 7 1/2 and stack a couple of 00 in my side saddle just in case. Over penetration is a very real issue, and let's face it, if it doesn't kill, it's still gonna hurt like hell. By that time, if five rounds of birdshot hasn't taken care of it, I've still got the 00 as back up.

Well, also consider that since the birdshot won't likely physically stop them, they could be shooting back as you go through those 5rds, then pause to load off the side-saddle. They may not feel pain due to drugs and adrenaline either.

Also consider, yes recovery time from buckshot recoil is more for you, but only a fraction of a second more. However, if the 00 stops the threat in 1-2rds and the birdshot doesn't at all, there was no gain in being able to shoot more of the less-effective rounds faster.

With your military background, an AR would both solve the recoil issue, have way better terminal performance than birdshot, and still penetrate less than 00 buck or any handgun round.

My HD is an AR with RDS and light, I also have mapped out my fields of fire in relation to the kids rooms, areas where the BGs would be, and my likely points of domination. I can engage from my bed left to the door frame w/o endangering them and if I move to the door or top of stairs, my whole field of fire is nowhere near any friendlies.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I don't personally load my hd weapons with bird shot. But inside of home distances I'm pretty sure anything at all will not open the spread more than a tight fist. I'd venture at twenty feet or less it all prolly hits with the wad in a knot. I know a guy who caught a close up with birdshot and his knee was never the same again. He wasn't in the fight anymore.

 

[JSmith]

I have a Mossberg 500 20 ga. with 5-round capacity. My first 3 rounds are #2 buck; the last two are slugs.