Determined Attacker

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Good Ol' Boy

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When people talk about attackers being determined this is what they are referring to.

This guy has been tased pretty good, had a physical altercation with two LEO's as well as a shoot out, and still drives off.

Obviously this is not a civilian SD situation but IMHO its worthwhile viewing material on how vigilant attackers can be.



 
The trooper shot (Seth Kelly) very nearly died. They had to put him in an induced coma for a couple of weeks and he is still recovering. Nearly a year later, he is still only able to work 2 days a week. He is alive because he applied his own tourniquet after being shot 4 times.

The shooter apparently had "a mix of mental health issues" and tested positive for marijuana use, although it's unclear if he was actually under the influence at the time of the incident. He was shot a number of times, including once in the head but survived. He was recently convicted of attempted murder and could face up to 110 years in prison.
 
Thanks for the additional details and it's good to hear the Troopers survived.

Your info of how many times and to where the attacker was shot, and the fact he survived, just goes to attest to the subject at hand.
 
It looks to me like both troopers were shot. Any details on that? Armchair quarterback says they should have had eyes on him when he reaches in the driver's window and dropped him with extreme prejudice as soon as he came out with a gun in his hand. Looks like they were both shocked he was still up and running around. Hope the cops recover fully.
 
reading the backstory it’s nice to see that the dummy who shot the trooper was taken alive. Far too often they know what their future looks like and they take others with them when they go down fighting. This video is evidence of how ineffective a handgun may be. As a revolver guy, it hurts to think about what would happen in the event I run the gun dry and am still a target.
 
I can't find any evidence that Trooper Seiple was shot. The reports indicate that they were both shot at but it appears that only Kelly was hit.

I did find one comment that suggests that the attacker was not seriously impaired by substance abuse at the time. He had actually been ticketed and told to go on his way when he called the trooper back to the car in (according to the attacker) an attempt to waste the trooper's time.

At any rate, the fact that he had been able to successfully complete the ticketing process suggests that his impairment, if any, was not obvious.

For those who would like to read more about the encounter, the troopers were Ryan Seiple and Seth Kelly. I'd rather not give the name of the attacker any free publicity.
 
In an armed confrontation a handgun is what you use - if you have nothing better... I thank my lucky stars that none of my contacts as a cop in potentially violent situations early on required gunplay since I was only armed with my issued .38 model 10 (I came out of the police academy in the late winter of 1974 down here in south Florida).

I stayed lucky, but did learn that a shotgun works a lot better as a fight ender so whenever a call involved weapons (or even the possibility of weapons... ) that's what I had in my hands. I was still pretty ignorant of the finer points - but had a country boy's appreciation of it's worth.... After about five years on the job I finally needed that shotgun - one round at 15 meters was a definite fight ender in the suburban area that most of my city (a bit north of Miami) was... That incident got me wanting to actually learn as much as possible about how to use a shotgun for close quarter encounters when a moment's action might be all the difference in the world... Here, I'm only talking about a basic riot shotgun (18-20" barrel, single bead sight, four in the tube, using 2 3/4" 00 buck rounds, nine .33 pellets each...). The resulting wounds have to be seen up close to be believed.. That combination is an absolute fight ender against the most determined opponent - if you do your part.

I only fired one round in a 22 year career but to this day it would be my first choice for any close quarters confrontation (I'm speaking of ranges under 15 meters..). Even knowing that I had the edge with that old Wingmaster in my hands I'd still do my absolute best to try to avoid being in that situation. The results of any shootout in the real world are so random and un-predictable that I'd never want to be in that situation again... If I had worked in wide open areas my first choice in a confrontation would be a carbine or riflel but in densely populated areas where most gunplay is at close quarters I'd choose the shotgun any time...

By the way I'm not surprised at all that someone was hit multiple times with a handgun (or any firearm...) and was still able to shoot back.. That's not what movies and other popular entertainments lead us to believe but I actually saw the results of that sort of stuff on the street on more than one occasion... We taught our officers over and over again that basic survival in a shootout often involved getting behind cover as your first response...
 
The FBI shootout was a similar case where two determined attackers produced mayhem against multiple FBI agents. Who has the initiative counts for a lot.
 
The FBI shootout was a similar case where two determined attackers produced mayhem against multiple FBI agents. Who has the initiative counts for a lot.
Same with the LA downtown shootout. If those two boobs had put half of that determination into an decent escape plan they would probably still be free men. Thankfully determined doesn't necessarily mean smart.
 
Unbelievable!!! This is gonna make my entertainment tonight watching my Roku box and You-Tube. The cops demonstrate a level of patience that I never could. I'da used the pepper spray to nudge the woman out of the car ten minutes ago.
 
In an armed confrontation a handgun is what you use - if you have nothing better... I thank my lucky stars that none of my contacts as a cop in potentially violent situations early on required gunplay since I was only armed with my issued .38 model 10 (I came out of the police academy in the late winter of 1974 down here in south Florida).

I stayed lucky, but did learn that a shotgun works a lot better as a fight ender so whenever a call involved weapons (or even the possibility of weapons... ) that's what I had in my hands. I was still pretty ignorant of the finer points - but had a country boy's appreciation of it's worth.... After about five years on the job I finally needed that shotgun - one round at 15 meters was a definite fight ender in the suburban area that most of my city (a bit north of Miami) was... That incident got me wanting to actually learn as much as possible about how to use a shotgun for close quarter encounters when a moment's action might be all the difference in the world... Here, I'm only talking about a basic riot shotgun (18-20" barrel, single bead sight, four in the tube, using 2 3/4" 00 buck rounds, nine .33 pellets each...). The resulting wounds have to be seen up close to be believed.. That combination is an absolute fight ender against the most determined opponent - if you do your part.

I only fired one round in a 22 year career but to this day it would be my first choice for any close quarters confrontation (I'm speaking of ranges under 15 meters..). Even knowing that I had the edge with that old Wingmaster in my hands I'd still do my absolute best to try to avoid being in that situation. The results of any shootout in the real world are so random and un-predictable that I'd never want to be in that situation again... If I had worked in wide open areas my first choice in a confrontation would be a carbine or riflel but in densely populated areas where most gunplay is at close quarters I'd choose the shotgun any time...

By the way I'm not surprised at all that someone was hit multiple times with a handgun (or any firearm...) and was still able to shoot back.. That's not what movies and other popular entertainments lead us to believe but I actually saw the results of that sort of stuff on the street on more than one occasion... We taught our officers over and over again that basic survival in a shootout often involved getting behind cover as your first response...
A couple of years ago there was video of an attempted terror attack in Israel where the terrorist repeatedly got up after being shot. That was a a big eye-opener for me. But besides learning that BG may not stay down after you shoot him, we can learn from this that getting shot doesn't mean we're dead either.
 
Handgun wounds have an approximate eighty percent survivability rate. This applies to good guys and bad guys alike. It's been beaten to death, but still bears repeating, that the fight is over when the other guy says so.
 
I’ve heard lleyo users can be this determine and strong, but I could be wrong.

Anyone can be that determined and strong. It’s easier for us to accept that people can be hard to stop because they are drugged. But often drugs have nothing to do with it. It’s all in the mind.
 
Handgun wounds have an approximate eighty percent survivability rate. This applies to good guys and bad guys alike. It's been beaten to death, but still bears repeating, that the fight is over when the other guy says so.
yep, this excellent video of a lecture by a trauma doctor seems to back this figure up

**CAUTION: Some graphic images in this video**
 
The biggest mistake I see that was made was when the suspect reached into his vehicle. The taller trooper had not drawn his gun but the other trooper did. When the suspect came out with his gun the taller trooper turned into the other trooper. This gave the suspect the advantage. But nothing goes perfect, exspecialy in a rapidly changing situation.
Another thing is that your average State Trooper doesn’t have very many physical confrontations. Ask any Trooper you know and the number will be three or less a year.
I worked the streets in the roughest area in my city for almost 5 years. I was in a physical confrontation at less once a week. I’m overjoyed that I work behind the scenes these days. The streets are for younger men and women.
 
It's Amazing what bad guys can do, and what a human in general is capable of, both physically and mentally. I have seen "humans" do some pretty amazing/horrifying things, mostly during my military service- plus the things we all see and hear of in this information age. Take your training seriously, and push your limits. See my signature line.
 
Working in corrections, it would be easy for me to armchair quarterback this incident but I will not. Any job where someone wears a badge is tough enough.

I will say this, you taze enough people you will see times they do not work. Far too many civilians and politicians see a Tazer as a silver bullet that drops anyone. And I have seen someone get hit with 8 prongs and not even flinch. And that person was not under any drug or alcohol influence at all. I have worked along side SWAT, Corrections response teams, and military units for well over a decade. And it is important to have weapon options as an officer. Pepper spray, baton, Tazer, gun, knife, bring it all.

As a civilian, we are much more limited without wearing the same duty belt as an officer. Pretty hard to stick a baton in a pocket. Or a Tazer in a IWB holster on the other side of your body from a firearm. In a ground confrontation, I can get to a can of pepper spray faster and safer than a firearm. So I carry a can of Freeze +p.
 
Can't find it right now, but I have a video of an 8mm film from Vietnam. An ACAV (an M113 with a gun tub for the M2 .50 Cal and gun shields for M60s, one on each side) took a hit from an RPG in the gun tub that blew the hatch out the back of the tub. The TC/gunner didn't miss a beat; he emptied the box of ammo into the elephant grass on the far side of the wire, wrassled another box up through the hatch, reloaded the .50, dumped the second box into the elephant grass, and was trying to reload when his crew dragged him down into the track because Charlie was gone. He had done all this one-handed because there was a 9 x ¾ inch splinter of steel through his left elbow. Because they were able to get a medevac into the fire base, the young man, a 20 year old Sergeant/E-5, kept his arm, got a medical discharge, and 10 years later got a replacement elbow. He was a classmate of mine in college, and his platoon sergeant had sent him a copy of the original film that one of the mortar crewmen had taken.

He showed a few of us the film after we'd spent some time drinking. (At that point in time his elbow was fused in a 90° angle.) We convinced him that we needed to get it on video. While watching it the second time with a video camera running, one of the guys who had also been in Vietnam as an artilleryman asked him how he could keep going with only one arm working. He blinked and said, "There wasn't anyone else behind the gun." There was a shadow box in his room with a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with V device, a Purple Heart, and a National Defense Service Medal. One of the other guys asked him how long he'd been in Vietnam. "Seven weeks."

It's not the size of the dog in the fight; it's the size of the fight in the dog.
 
a note on tasers, which for stopping someone fast are probably better than a handgun
 
Post #21 says it all... and predicting who, on your side, will step up in horrendous circumstances and fight like a tiger -even though badly wounded..... is something I'd never even attempt. The big, strong he-man either panics or goes down from a minor wound - the small skinny librarian type does incredible things with total disregard for their own personal safety... and so it goes.

Even someone with a strong history of heroic actions in the past may freeze up the next time rounds are incoming - it all depends on the moment... That's just one of the reasons I still maintain that predicting the outcome of a gunfight - or really close quarters fight... is so random that it's to be avoided at all costs. The guy or gal who makes all the difference in the world in that terrible moment will often dismiss their actions as just something that needed to be done at the time.
 
Violence is a complete mess.

It doesn't unfold in accordance with carefully choreographed dance routine and violence does not typically stop on a dime. People are not nearly as fragile as they appear on television or movies and its probably a good idea to expect any violent occurrence to include chaos conducted at bad breath distance.
 
Violence is a complete mess.

It doesn't unfold in accordance with carefully choreographed dance routine and violence does not typically stop on a dime. People are not nearly as fragile as they appear on television or movies and its probably a good idea to expect any violent occurrence to include chaos conducted at bad breath distance.

Actually TV and movies have convinced quite a few folks they are fragile. There are those that think just merely being hit will kill them and therefore die. These folks usually have no experience with violence. Those that grow up with it know getting shot doesn't mean you die, and just don't give up so easily.
 
Post 23 states something many people overlook. We act on circumstance based on who we are. But who we are changes with time, experience, mental and emotional condition, etc. My family reminds me sometimes that I've "calmed down" a lot in the last few decades. Everyone changes.
 
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