Did Texas Open Carry backfire?

[Prince Yamato]

Under previous TX law, deliberately failing to conceal a concealed handgun was an offense. So if your jacket flapped open or if you got caught in the rain and printed through a wet T-shirt, an argument could be made that you intentionally failed to conceal the gun. When I took my original CHL class (and later, the then-required renewal classes) the instructors gave some anecdotes of people being harassed and even taken into custody by police on issues like this - no hard information on criminal proceedings, but "you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" seems to be an attitude by some police and some DAs in some jurisdictions.

Lots of folks have been saying this, but does anyone know of a single case where a person was prosecuted for accidentally exposing a handgun? I mean successfully prosecuted, not stopped by police and told to cover up. I've never heard of a single one, only internet hearsay.

Printing has always been the least of my worries.

 

[Praxidike]

This is just my opinion which might be based on misinformation. I think that some of the CC folks are giving more weight to this than they should. This might be in part because they didn't like the idea of open carry to begin with which stems from people legally carrying "assault weapons" into inappropriate areas.

Lots of other states have open carry (including neighboring Arizona), and you don't even have to have a permit to do so. Heck, some of these states are Blue states or have Constitutional Carry where, unlike in TX, you can open carry and conceal carry any type of firearm w/o a petmit. In many of these states, the owner of the establishment can also post a sign that prohibits carry of any kind, and the carrier can be attested for trespassing if they do not comply. Yet, none of these states, to my knowledge, are having the issues that Texas is currently having. Why is that?

I think all of this is much to do about nothing. Stores are having a knee jerk reaction to the new law by posting signs, but IMHO with time, things in Texas will be no different than the way things are in the many other states that allow OC.

Moreover, I don't know why some gun owners would be okay with restricting other gun owner's method of carry state wide by law all based on signs that are being posted by a few stores that you may only patronize for a few minutes mostly on a non-daily basis... Even if you don't like the fact that now you are being forbidden to conceal carry, on the plus side, at least now no one's rights are being restricted by law. Property owners have the right to post the signs, and CC and OC people have the right to exercise their First Amendment right in the manner that personally suits them.... All might not be happy, but at least all is fair.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I think you maybe missed the point some have made that many places which have now decided to officially disallow open carry have put up both of the signs together so that concealed carry is now also against the law there.

Possibly. It may be a misunderstanding on the part of the property owners but I don't think it is. A lot of people didn't want OC in TX and I'm sure they included many business owners. More than likely it's an "in your face, gun owners" reaction. If I know anything about Texans, they can be an ornery bunch.

In 20 years nobody will notice.

 

[CoalTrain49]

It's good to point out that while OC may not be seen frequently in large metro and urban areas and it may never, the place where it makes the biggest difference is where people may carry a gun in much the same way as they would a Buck 110 or a pair of pliers.
This of course would be a more rural setting but those folks have no less a right to be armed in a way that best suits them.

I agree with this.

I live in a state where OC is legal and has been for a very long time.

I hunt, fish and hike in remote areas and I OC. I don't OC otherwise.

Don't forget about the guy or gal who wants to OC because it's a more comfortable way to carry in the outback. I use a shoulder holster.

Bumped into a hiker (woman by herself) last week carrying a Glock. How did I know it was a Glock, OC. This was AZ, 30 miles north of the border.

Not everyone lives in Dallas.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Yet, none of these states, to my knowledge, are having the issues that Texas is currently having. Why is that?

What "Issues" is Texas having? Because, you know, I carry a gun around Texas all day everyday and haven't had any issues.

Moreover, I don't know why some gun owners would be okay with restricting other gun owner's method of carry state wide by law

Because we believe in the rights of property owners.

 

[Sam1911]

Because we believe in the rights of property owners.

But that's a pretty overstated response -- the sort of thing the anti- folks would say to mislead the public.

Texas property owners -- and ALL property owners everywhere -- have the right to restrict folks carrying guns and pretty much (almost) anybody else from entering their property. The same trespass laws that protect a property owner from having to allow someone with an offensive t-shirt or sign from entering their property, or someone not wearing shoes, or a panhandler, or someone who's making a ruckus, protects them from having to allow someone carrying a firearm.

Nothing has changed about that, either way, due to the relaxing of carry laws or the imposition of these signs.

The only thing that's changed is whether the STATE gets involved and levies criminal penalties on someone for what is merely violating a private party's policy.

I guess you could say that's a pretty extreme form of "protecting property rights" but I'd say we should think VERY carefully about how much we laud inviting the state to enforce BY LAW the policies of any private person or property owner.


Consider an analogy: Your neighbor put up a sign in your yard that says "No Cows Allowed." The next day your cow gets out of the fence and wanders across his yard on the way down to the local watering hole. Would you want the state to come and arrest you for violating his policy?

Now absent any law about the state enforcing "no cows" signs, he could simply come and tell you to get your cow off his yard, and that would be perfectly legal for him to do and you'd open yourself up to legal consequences if you refused. And, he could always sue you for any actual damage your cow did to his property while there.

But would you be ok with the state locking you up, or levying a misdemeanor criminal sentence on you for violating your neighbor's personal policy?

I certainly hope not, and I hope that adds some much needed clarity to the picture of what's going on in TX and other states where signs have the force of legal penalties.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

That's not a very good example as the cow isn't a reasoning or rational creature and has not ability to comprehend the "No Cows" sign. The cows violation of your property will always be a civil matter because it doesn't have the proper mental state to willfully trespass.

We would hope that a person carrying a handgun is not the same.

Texas property owners -- and ALL property owners everywhere -- have the right to restrict folks carrying guns and pretty much (almost) anybody else from entering their property.

Then what's the problem with them being able to do so with a sign instead of having to personally address each and every customer?

The only thing that's changed is whether the STATE gets involved and levies criminal penalties on someone for what is merely violating a private party's policy.

I've never seen trespass handled in civil courts. It has always been a matter for "the state".

 

[Sam1911]

That's not a very good example as the cow isn't a reasoning or rational creature and has not ability to comprehend the "No Cows" sign. The cows violation of your property will always be a civil matter because it doesn't have the proper mental state to willfully trespass.

We would hope that a person carrying a handgun is not the same.

Nit picking doesn't support your point. The cow is not the actor in this case, not the party at fault, and you know that. The actor, the party at fault is the owner of said cow who allowed/caused this to happen.

Unless you REALLY thought I was suggesting putting the cow in jail.

(I could have picked any of a thousand examples. C'mon, don't try and deflect the point on a technicality.)

Texas property owners -- and ALL property owners everywhere -- have the right to restrict folks carrying guns and pretty much (almost) anybody else from entering their property.

Then what's the problem with them being able to do so with a sign instead of having to personally address each and every customer?

There is NO problem with that. Put up a sign! Speak to the customers. Ask people with guns not to come in, or to leave. However you want to handle it.

The problem is when you invite the state to act to enforce that sign with immediate weight of criminal penalty. In other words, ask the state to put the force of the government behind your personal policies.

That goes a far piece beyond simple enforcement of trespass law.

You could have policies that state almost anything: No photography. No objectionable t-shirts. No skirts cut above the knee. No green except on St. Patty's day. Whatever you want. You can put up signs to inform patrons of those policies. And you can kick people out of your establishment for violating any of them.

But to ask the state to convict and jail or fine someone for violating your personal whims? Absent even a request for them to leave? When a simple request for them to leave would have solved the matter without putting anyone afoul of the law? That's wrong on a very fundamental level.

The only thing that's changed is whether the STATE gets involved and levies criminal penalties on someone for what is merely violating a private party's policy.

I've never seen trespass handled in civil courts. It has always been a matter for "the state".

Again, that's trespass. And trespass is a heavy-duty matter of law. These signs elevate breaking of what is entirely an agreement between private parties to a matter of the state enforcing criminal trespass.

 

[jmace57]

You know, the passage of CC also led to a lot of signage going up...total backfire.

I agree - there are a LOT more 30.06 signs going up with the 30.07s,

 

[MaterDei]

Lots of other states have open carry (including neighboring Arizona)

I wasn't aware that our annexation of New Mexico had been completed.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I wasn't aware that our annexation of New Mexico had been completed.

I don't think they want permits for OC in NM.

Just a guess.

 

[Grayrock]

JohnKSA: In this case we're seeing some situations where places that were not CC posted (were CC legal) before the OC law passed are being CC posted when some places that post 30.07 go ahead and also post 30.06 signs to match.

The result is fewer places where carry is legal than before the OC law was passed.

jmace57:I agree - there are a LOT more 30.06 signs going up with the 30.07s,

This is my point. I get probably 4 or 5 new notifications daily via www.texas3006.com of new places that are now off limits that prior to the passage of Open Carry legislation had no restrictions. I hope, as some have postulated, that the uptick in 30.06 signs will reverse in time.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

This is my point. I get probably 4 or 5 new notifications daily via www.texas3006.com of new places that are now off limits that prior to the passage of Open Carry legislation had no restrictions.

And how many of those places do/did you actually go to with any sort of regularity??

I see them as well. So far, there is one theater that I go to maybe 3 times a year that is now double posted and one chicken place that I have used many times, but never been in because we use the drive thru. So this is really a non-issue for me, my wife, and in a brief survey of carry friends, of them as well.

Yes, a lot of places have the signs, but few such places impacts or have any significant impact on the carrying by the few of us that regularly carry.

 

[MistWolf]

No, you made it very clear that you don't know what you're talking about

I read that section wrong and drew an erroneous conclusion. There is a big difference between AND & OR. My mistake

 

[BSA1]

A lot of people didn't want OC in TX and I'm sure they included many business owners. More than likely it's an "in your face, gun owners" reaction. If I know anything about Texans, they can be an ornery bunch.

I have been married to a Texan for 30 something years.

I would not suggest you tell her that she can't carry because of as you put it "a lot of people don't want OC."

 

[BSA1]

This is my point. I get probably 4 or 5 new notifications daily via www.texas3006.com of new places that are now off limits that prior to the passage of Open Carry legislation had no restrictions. I hope, as some have postulated, that the uptick in 30.06 signs will reverse in time.

4 or 5 notifications in the 2nd largest State in the Union and larger than the nation of France hardly seems like a tidal wave of protest. But it is common for people to fear what they don't understand.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yeah, I am rather curious about using Texas3006.com as a sampling platform.

I thought I would pick Dallas to check some stats. Texas3006.com does not readily lend itself to data mining and Dallas is a large city about which I am most familiar (as compared to Houston or San Antonio).

121 localities posted 30.06 ONLY
43 localities posted both 30.06 and 30.07
6 localities previously posted 30.06 (based or original posted date) at least 6 months before 30.07 law and some for several years
6 localities posted 30.06 ONLY after 31 Dec 2015
68 places posted 30.07 ONLY

So in Dallas, there is a roughly 30% increase in the number of places people cannot conceal carry that corresponds to Open Carry (n=37).

It gets more interesting. Of the double posted localities, 8 are noted as not being legal signs and 2 more are dubious. 18 are noted as invalid for the 30.07 ONLY postings, with another 8 being unsure.

30% sounds like a really high number until you realize that it has a population of ~1.3 million people with literally 10s of thousands of business, organizations, etc.

So before we start talking about how open carry has backfired, keep in mind how minuscule the numbers truly are in the grand scheme of what is going on