Do we gun owners shoot ourselves...

[Sans Authoritas]

Hm... how is it that the world has gone from being ruled by Emperors, then by Kings, then by one's neighbors? Not by voting, I guarantee. Nor by force of arms. The changes have occurred because of ideas. People began to realize that Emperors only had power because, well, they allowed them to have power. And it never worked out well for them. Kings only had power because the people believed they needed a king. And it never worked out well for them. People elected by your neighbors only have power because your neighbors think they need petty kings. And so it will continue to not work out, until people realize that coercively-funded government is counterproductive and deadly. Period.

Liberty is sucked dry by people in power. They have the power to tax, and the power to enslave you to fight for them, and sell it to the populace as some sort of brave "fighting for your country." Your country is not the government's policies. Your country is not their corporate interests and lining the nests of the powerful with cushy gifts from offense contractors. But they make you believe you are fighting for truth, justice, and to keep your neighbor's wife from being raped and his house from being ransacked by Brits/Canadians/Mexicans/Southerners/Spanish/Filipinos/Bloody-handed Huns/Nazis/North Koreans/Vietnamese/Grenadans/Panamanians/Soviets/Iraqis/"Terror." There is no force on earth that could invade and occupy the U.S. Yet they still go off and fight, believing naively that they are somehow "protecting the country."

People should fight not to be in power, but to be left alone. When's the last time that's ever happened in the history of the U.S. government? Probably 1865. They were the Southerners, in case there was any doubt.

That's why I don't vote. I want to be left alone, and I want you to be left alone, too. I have no right to use your money for anything. I have no right to take it from you by choosing a proxy to take your money from you. I only have the right to live peacefully with my neighbors. I have the duty to treat everyone I meet with justice. No more.

But keep voting. It will change the nature of people with the power to tax and enslave people to fight for them. Really.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[R127]

Like many brothers-in-arms, I've lost many valuable friends, throughout the last 21+ years, while voluntarily carrying out the orders and decisions of those leaders. And now more than ever, with our rights being politically threatened as they are, I really hope that the rest of our country is feeling compelled to not stand idly by and just let things happen.

Also not a personal attack or anything but there is an extremely intresting concept in there. I could not suffer two decades of cognitive dissonance required to do the bidding of enemies of freedom, the constitution and our national security. That's a personal thing but it prefaces the main thrust of the concept I find so interesting which is accentuated by the line that goes

I really hope that the rest of our country is feeling compelled to not stand idly by and just let things happen.

We have the most powerful military on the planet equipped with the most powerful weapons ever created employing the most highly trained soldiers history has ever seen. This juggernaut exists for the purpose of defending the constitution and securing our borders against invasion. It doesn't do either. 20 years in one of the mightiest aircraft to ever take to the skies did not manage to keep us from sliding off the edge of that slippery sloped we've talked about for so long. I don't think it is realistic to expect an amateur diebold jockey with two minutes in the hot seat to do much better.

This is where we get back to the cognitive dissonance. I respect you and your fallen friends for what you tried to do but from your own writing it sounds like you yourself see those "decisions" of our "leaders" as a bit sketchy at best. How about we just stop helping them stab us in the back? There is no sense in operating the war machines if they are not going to be used for their chartered purpose. There is no sense in voting for politicians who are not going to fufill their oath of office yet alone keep a campaign promise. How about we start holding politicians to a high standard and rejecting scumbags while simultaneously refusing to voluntarily carry out their orders? So far nobody forces anybody else to vote for their guy and nobody forces anybody else to fight for the broke system. It makes a whole lot more sense to start acting like Americans again instead of playing all these weird little games with ourselves.

Do vote though. Nobody cares if you don't vote because your voice doesn't get heard at all. If you vote your conscience you are still participating in the diebold opinion poll so it gets registered along with everybody else who supported a certain voting issue. Probably won't change a lot in the final analysis because the problem is systemic in nature but at least you get to register a complaint. Seriously though. Voting is not the time to be playing good cop bad cop. That has to be the oldest trick in the book. You'd think people would have figured that one out by now.

 

[siglite]

Duty? What duty? I have a RIGHT to vote, and a RIGHT not to vote. This isn't Australia. I am free to withhold participation from a system I find too corrupt to support. And if ever there was a time to walk away or vote for Cthulhu, this election is shaping up to be one.

You misunderstand my use of the term "duty." It's my fault, as my choice of words was poor. So allow me to clarify my position.

Legally it is a right.
Morally it is a duty.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

That's why I don't vote. I want to be left alone, and I want you to be left alone, too. I have no right to use your money for anything. I have no right to take it from you by choosing a proxy to take your money from you. I only have the right to live peacefully with my neighbors. I have the duty to treat everyone I meet with justice. No more.

But keep voting. It will change the nature of people with the power to tax and enslave people to fight for them. Really.

I used to feel the same way. But, now I feel that, even if I voted for my dog, I would feel better than if I skipped out on elections altogether.

It depends on who/what you are voting for. Believe it or not, there are some candidates out there who want to leave you alone.

 

[SuperNaut]

All in favor say "aye" those opposed say "nay." The motion is passed by those abstaining.

Waitaminute, it doesn't work that way does it?

Hmm, that process doesn't make sense at all...

 

[inkhead]

If you vote for a candidate not in your registered party, you automatically get 10 years in gitmo. Or maybe that was a law I was going to put in place if elected ;-)

Sigh... elections suck.

 

[bloodedsky]

I know this would never happen, but if no one voted at all...

Then someone would still find themselves the new leader, because lo and behold, it has become fashionable to steal elections from one's foe!

The only candidate who's worth a damn is Nader.

 

[Titan6]

Condemn is as unnecessarily harsh and extreme as declaring a Constitutional process corrupt. It so happens that I share your revulsion towards Giulani and I faced the same dilemma at the prospect of his nomination. I hadn't resolved the question of what I would do and I trusted--anxiously--that the process would reveal his weaknesses and destroy his chances. It did.

I can tell you what I would have done with absolute certainty. Since I will now never have to face that choice any answer I can give now is too convient.

On gun rights, of the three left in the race McCain is the only with even a partially proven record of sometimes strong, somtimes limp wristed support. On this issue he is leaps and bounds ahead of any of the Democrats, who would both easily and eagerly sign another AWB if it came across their desk. So I suppose if I were concerned with maintaining the system status quo and did not care about my other freedoms he would be the ideal choice.

But the system itself appears to be deeply flawed on a fundamental level. We are only a few more bills, acts, and supreme court rulings from slipping into Touqueville's dictatorship of democracy that we were warned of nearly 200 years ago. It is happening exactly as scripted, by majority rule. The RKBA was supposed to be the fail safe when all other measures have failed, not a concern in of itself (although it has become that by default).

Both sides appear to have near identical views on freedom, government interference in private life, the economy and most other meaningful issues. Although the Democrats appear to be slightly more in support of individual freedoms, slighty more in favor of the parent state, slightly less interested in the financial suicide of the country. At least McCain is opposed to torturing people out of hand because even though we know that they know something but won't tell us what it is that we know that they know unless we put them on the rack and stretch them. But you never really know till you get them in office.

Either way it is completely irrelevant. Because none of those running will address any of the issues that I care about:
- Neither side will do a thing to restore financial sanity to the country
- Neither side will restore freedoms and work to to repeal crazy anti-freedom "laws"
- Neither side will reduce the size of the Federal Government to reasonable levels
- Neither side will work to restore lost gun rights
- Neither side will work to restore states rights
- Neither side will reform the tax code
- Neither side will resolve the wars we are in in manners that are peacable, stable and with eye towards freedom

If the best we can do is to try to avoid more slippage into anti-freedom I am not so sure that is good enough, especially when the choices are very nearly indistinguisable. So why should I be interesting in maintaing the status quo or slowing down the slippage? What is in it for me and those I care about?

 

[WayneConrad]

To anyone who won't vote, because the choices are going to be awful...

I agree, they are awful.

And I want you to not vote.

You've made my terrible, awful vote more powerful. It'll be distasteful--the most distasteful vote I've ever cast, but I'll cast it, nevertheless. Thank you for staying home. Happy to make your choice for you.

And now, a short rant on quantity over quality come election day

And all of this "get out the vote" nonsense? Rubbish. Let's not. "Get Out the Vote" is aimed at uninformed youngsters who are going to vote for the candidate I despise even more, or just punch the ballot at random. They can stay home. It's not important that everyone vote. Only those who will vote for the same waste of protoplasm as I will need go to the polls.

I don't know who it was that decided that it's important that sheer numbers of voters is important. Numbers of informed voters, sure. Numbers of mindless, network-soaked drones? They should stay home and watch American Idol or MTV.

 

[Deavis]

Now, as a youngster, I was taught how important a person's vote is regardless of how the system works. As an adult, I know it matters because in my contributions to this country through military service, I've lived and almost died through the good and poor decisions of our leaders.

The first sentence is contains the classic lie foisted on us by weak candidates who try to appeal to the mass of uneducated moron voters. Think "Get out the Vote" drives that only bring in voters that have no idea what they are voting for. Hardly good for the health of a republic, it is better to let them not vote. The second sentence is a bit misleading. The leaders of the country didn't put you in life or death situations, you did by voluntarily joining our military. Don't blame other people for the risks you willingly accepted by joining a fighting force.

We can talk about informed voters and all that crap but honestly it comes down to this. If your typical public education drone goes and votes today it means reduced freedom. However if that same drone voted and the Federal government was constrained by the Constitution, then it wouldn't matter. The problem is a powerful government, not drones voting. Take away the power source of the drones and they'll quit voting to take away your rights and money.

 

[siglite]

And all of this "get out the vote" nonsense? Rubbish. Let's not. "Get Out the Vote" is aimed at uninformed youngsters who are going to vote for the candidate I despise even more, or just punch the ballot at random. They can stay home. It's not important that everyone vote. Only those who will vote for the same waste of protoplasm as I will need go to the polls.

While some of your points are valid in general, I don't think it's applicable to THR members, and even less so here in Activism. To tie it back to the OP, I doubt it's highly or reliably applicable to those whom might have read the GOA rant. By virtue of reading said rant, they're indicating at least a will to familiarize themselves with the process, key players, and issues. The thought of someone who professes to care about their freedoms abstaining from their contribution to the process strikes me as hypocritical.

 

[Rachen]

Don't vote? Thats even more awful.

Go out and vote Republican. It doesn't matter who is running on that side though, it sure will be much better than the European socialists on the other side of the ballgame.

 

[XDKingslayer]

People who try to, 'send a message,' by not voting (or by voting for the other party to 'punish' someone) forget that messages have to be received and understood before they mean anything. The only message an election winner hears is, "I'm right by God!!"

You voice is most certainly heard when you do not vote. The problem is that it's ignored. Every year you hear candidates pushing for better voter turn out. What they don't realize is that there is a poor voter turn out because the selections are poor.

I believe in this country. I believe in it's Constitution. But the electoral process is corrupt, broken and abused. I refuse to vote for someone I don't like simply to keep someone I like less out of office.

That's not what voting is for.

 

[erictank]

Every year you hear candidates pushing for better voter turn out. What they don't realize is that there is a poor voter turn out because the selections are poor.

That's what WRITE-INS are for. If your vote won't matter because Candidate (R) and Candidate (D) haven't got more than a mouse-hair's difference between them, if what puny difference there is is nothing more than a matter of WHICH freedoms they seek to crush, then why not vote for ANYONE else?

Me, I say, "To {that unmentionable place} with the both of 'em, I'm writing in Ron Paul - and sending the RNC and DNC a nice polite letter explaining why." Gotta TELL them that they lost the vote if you want to have ANY hope of change.

Works equally well with Huckabee, Arnie, or Mickey Mouse in place of RP, as far as I'm concerned at least. May not work at all - but at least I'm not voting for the one Cthulu, in the hopes that s/he can fend off the other. That fearmongering "If you don't vote for Candidate (R), you're actually voting for Candidate (D)!!!" crap? Do I really need to tell those promulgating it where you can put it?

 

[Apachedriver]

...it sure will be much better than the European socialists on the other side of the ballgame.

Funny that you made that reference in your post. We had a conversation going today at work about differences between left and right thinking in this country.
A comment was made on how liberal thinking generally seems to be in chase after the wonderful European Utopian society that does not, and has never, existed. It's a failed experiment whose only hope of success is to wipe out all other forms of thinking.
Not to mention, this is the United States of America and we exist (as a result of a slew of reasons and actions) due to a breakaway from said European society.

While I may not like a politician who claims his way is the only answer, I'm even more leary of one whose charismatic words imply that he can placate all sides at once. He is a true wolf and will end up showing his true colors once in a seat of power.

I'd add that as screwy as we can be in our society at times, we haven't been brainwashed into helplessness yet. Regardless of our problems here, in varying degrees, we all can and do play a role in our country's direction to the future. So far anyway.

 

[BridgeWalker]

Yes. We shoot ourselves in the foot in about a bajillion ways.

Not voting? Nah. We can't all be one-issue voters, and we can't all wrap our minds around certain kinds of compromise. Personally, I vote, but I respect the choice not to.

If you choose not to vote and you have kids though, you should go to the polls, take them with you, take a ballot, and hand it in. Write in Mickey Mouse, or whoever. But kids should learn how it works, and they should establish the interest and desire to make informed choices. Sitting at home looks apathetic even when it isn't.

As for shooting ourselves in the foot, oh heck ya! Are you kidding? What large group doesn't? We're better at it than most though.

 

[AKCOP]

Not voting is crazy. So many who have posted here have a better grasp on issues than many who will vote. So why would you give them power over you by not voting? Does it not scare anyone that so many people will vote for Hillary because she is a woman, the wife of Bill who they just loved! Or for the other guy because he is black and wouldn't it be nice to have a black man for president, he is so cute and positive.
Yes McCain is not perfect but my GOD the other choice is just NUTTY.
I remember how many friends I HAD that voted for Carter because they wanted to send a message to the republicans, boy that worked out great didn't it.

 

[Guntalk]

Two words.

Supreme Court.

Think "Heller" and cases which follow. Then tell me there's no difference between the candidates.

I liken this to being attacked in the parking lot. You are facing a clear threat. You have the choice of a cheap pistol, an ice pick, or nothing.

Choosing nothing to convince the gun company they should produce a better pistol seems, to me, to be a bit suicidal. You may not LIKE the cheap pistol, and it certainly would not have been your first choice, but with a thug bearing down on you, it's better than nothing.

Okay, the analogy is pretty rough, but "Mr. Perfect" is not running this year.

Many of us, I guess, will think "Supreme Court," hold our noses, and pull the lever.

 

[Big45]

Why, why, why do people post this stuff in "Activism"????

Guys and gals, this forum is for ACTION, not blather.

Mods, please get a handle on this stuff.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

If you don't vote, I trust you shall remain silent for the next four years.

ECS

 

[bogie]

This election, we've essentially been negated as an influential voting bloc.

I suspect that more than a little of it has occurred via actions of folks who we will not see on internet forums following election day... The folks who are actively preaching the "vote for anyone but one of those nasty McCain types."

Because every vote not cast for a Republican is one less that Hilbama has to score...

 

[3rdpig]

I'd much rather have someone in the office that I agree with 60% of the time than someone I agree with 0% of the time.

Also, in the next 8 years it's likely that 3 of the most liberal SCOTUS justices the court has ever seen will leave. This could be a once in a lifetime opportunity to replace those liberal justices with conservative, originalist justices. Yes, if Hillary or Obama get in office it will be liberal for liberal, but they'll appoint young justices and they'll be on the bench for 20 to 30 years. McCain has promised to appoint originalist justices. The importance of turning the court solidly pro constitution, as it was intended, can not be under valued.

I'm not a McCain fan, but I will vote for him in November for the above reasons, and because the alternative is too horrible to imagine.

 

[IllHunter]

I want to cut to the chase...

I was a Democrat at the time,

your comments and thinking lead me to believe nothing's changed!

I don't think President Obama will be as rough on gun owners as you might expect,

As my drill instructor often said, the key part of that statement is "I don't think"

I believe anyone who doesn't vote, every election should be denied the right to vote. I believe it to be a felonious waste of freedom and liberty and I know there are many who can't, who would.

 

[xephael]

Duty? What duty? I have a RIGHT to vote, and a RIGHT not to vote. This isn't Australia. I am free to withhold participation from a system I find too corrupt to support. And if ever there was a time to walk away or vote for Cthulhu, this election is shaping up to be one.

There are other elections you can participate in besides the Presidential one in your precinct. It would be a shame to throw a number of your rights away just because you don't want to vote for a President.

You can always leave the Presidential part blank and vote for your local officials like judges, etc...

I believe anyone who doesn't vote, every election should be denied the right to vote. I believe it to be a felonious waste of freedom and liberty and I know there are many who can't, who would.

Why not just require military service before you have a right to vote? I completely disagree with your statement, but would like you to expound upon it.

 

[IllHunter]

My pleasure....

Since you asked so nicely...

I completely disagree with your statement, but would like you to expound upon it.

I believe that the act of voting is the only personal connection between the "people" and their selected representatives. Living in mostly Democratic environment Cook County, Illinois, and leaning towards conservative values as I do, I feel un-represented in D.C. My both senators are HUGE libs, Obama and Durban need I say more, okay I will. My congrescritter is Mark Kirk a RINO posterboy who failed to sign the congressional amicus letter re Heller. the governor is currently watching his chief fund raisers' federal corruption trial while my past governor languishes in a federal prison. My county board is presided over by the son of the former president, come to think of it my president is the son of a former president (doesn't that smell funny to anyone else?). My state legislature is dominated by Chicago politicians mostly Democrats who are fueding with each other and don't "play nicely". We have the highest sales tax in the nation and the price of gasoline is $3.60+- for regular unleaded.
I have voted in every single election since I moved here in 1983 and firmly believe from my discussions with neighbors and friends etc. that more people think/believe as I do. But they fail/refuse to vote or pay no attention to the issues and vote as they're told. The dirth of informed voters is so blatant that during the last (primary) election, a young(17yo) student judge commented to me (the not so young judge) that it was evident. I've been in many countries of the world and seen martial law and civil unrest, I value our way of life and feel my biggest best connection to this process is when I put my finger on the voting touchscreen. I know a guy who as a convicted felon, lost his rights and of all the ramifications of his "stupid", the years incarcerated, the loss of income and status, the loss of his political voice is the most missed. He has regained some $ and status but the years are gone for good and so is this cherished connection. I have put aside the "lesser of evils" argument and console myself that if these are the candidates available those are my choices. I have/do volunteer in local politics to have a say and to be informed and sometimes although not often, my voice is heard.