Do you support ANY gun-control laws?

Do you support ANY gun-control laws?


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sernv99 wrote:
bitter man I see What's next, you wish all drug users sharing needles die of AIDS?

your long rant about getting rid of your family seems to be WAYYYYY off tangent and reflects your pent up anger and instability. Or you could be sitting behind your computer, Rush Limbaugh-ish, all talk no action, just rambling on to make a point. Advocating for other members to "get what they deserve" because they don't agree with your stance on gun laws is very very non-THR.

Actually I am a Black Labrador with a Laptop and Internet access...*wink*

Seriously,

I hate to drop names, but I will.
Send a PM to Mas Ayoob ask him , he will not share with you what I was raised into, or what all I did, just confirm I am not a poser, armchair ranger, or mall Ninja.
Tom Givens could as well, although I have not met Mr. Givens face to face, instead our interactions were by phone, letter, by others sent to see him and his facility, and later Internet.
SouthNarc could, then again he knows me by another name, and user name.
Or you could PM Lee Lapin, hso, or Jeff White.


I was born into a high risk environment, even as a baby, if I was kidnapped, I could be used by Evil as leverage by criminals to force folks to give the criminals what they wanted.

I was not yet 13 years old, when 3 armed adult males, busted down the front door, and stated intent, and I used a firearm to stop that threat.

I had some "family" that were good folks, like my grandma, and her only son, my uncle.
I had some like the fella that sired me, that was not good folks.


Grandma, and those I respectfully refer to as Mentors & Elders, passed forward to me, that which is true and correct.

Some M&E's were not from the USA, originally. Some came from countries that had denied its people rights, including those of firearms. Countries where wars and civil unrest were common, and in some places, still are today.

Others were Veterans of War, and had seen what a people denied, end up as in gas chambers, and mass graves.

Others spent time in places, and did things they can't talk about, during "other conflicts" and others are familiar with what is known as the Cold War, and ...



Now one of the things Mentors did, was assist the ladies, and single moms.
I was there with them, as a wittle kid, helping, and being mentored at the same time.


Simple.
Boyfriends get killed in War.
Husbands get killed in War, and that newlywed wife, finds herself expectant with child.

WE also assisted Vets, those Active, and Reserve, injured, and physically limited, and...
Parents lose a son, in war,/ have a son come back not whole- and the idea of that son being able to carry on the family farm, ranch, business, whatever...means these aging parents, and grandparents need some help.

Evil, likes easy prey.


That daughter, attending HS for one-half a day, then taking the Greyhound bus to the bigger city to work in a "city job" for a relative to get some hands on experience.
Maybe she later moves to a bigger city, and lives in a boarding house with other girls like herself to work and attend Nursing School, or take some College classes.

It was not uncommon for a 15, or 16 year old girl, to leave a rural, or semi rural area, and go to a bigger city and do these things.

These young ladies grew up around firearms, and how to take preventive steps in rural and semi rural areas.

Bigger cities are a new environment, hence the reason Mentors & Elders, these men and women, assisted them.

I do not care folks around here do not like small caliber, small handguns.
The fact of the matter is, a Beretta Jetfire in 25ACP is a small, concealable firearm.
So is a Beretta Bobcat in .22lr or 25ACP.

That young lady, had some lessons, from real deal, been there and done that folks on how to stay safe in a bigger city.
If money was tight, as it often was, these ladies were given a gun to have on person.
Judges, Cops, Sheriff, Churches, Folks in general, chipped in, and that young lady had a gun.
How raised-what you do.

Now that young lady passes forward as passed to her, maybe just taking care of a sick person while other family attend to matters they need to. Eventually that young lady gets in a better financial way, and again somebody needs a gun, and she can contribute to them having one.

The circle stays unbroken.

There was no "permission papers", instead where I come up, and spent time, Judges, and Cops, Sheriffs, Constables, Texas Rangers, and others flat told me, "carry a damn gun".
They also told these young ladies "carry a damn gun".
They told all sorts of folks "carry a damn gun".

I had guns, but I did not have a small gun so I was given a Beretta Minx, just before I entered 3rd grade, and yes, I carried concealed.
Some bad stuff had gone down, and it was time for me to CCW.

I am not sharing a black-n-white movie, or some radio show, and sure as hell am not sharing a video game.

Evil has always watched the young lady, leaving a structure, and walking to and fro a bus stop. While on the bus, evil eyes are cast upon that young lady.

She is not 21 years old, there are not "permission papers", she has a right to defend herself.
I don't give a damn what folks thinks about those small caliber, small handguns, or Christy Knife, or anything else.

I know.
I know all too damn well, that evil is evil.
I know about those young ladies not becoming a victim because they had a gun, and knew how to use it.

I also know about the beaten, battered ladies and single moms, and the kids abused.
That is something I was mentored in, and chose to do, assist such persons.

Family?
It has not been that many years , when everything about a family was kept private.
"It stays in the family".

Some HS girl all of a sudden, is no longer enrolled in HS , and the "excuse" is - "she has a opportunity to work for her Uncle and learn his business, so she is attending school there."

Lie.

Her daddy forced himself upon that daughter, and the wife/mom kept her mouth shut, and that daughter went to have a baby at a "Girls School".
That baby was sometimes kept, or given up for adoption.

That wife/mom, sometimes was threatened with being beaten, or being divorced, and folks did not do divorce back then.
The fear instilled by an abusive husband, of divorcing his "housewife", and her having to go get some skill sets to make a living, was real. She would not have a house, furniture, much of anything and end up living in a boarding house, by herself, or maybe having to find room mates.

Yes, we assisted some "housewives" and some "housewives with kids" that did leave an abusive situation and strike out on their own.
Despite what preachers and society "thought" they did get divorced. Back then, that was not always well received by a church, or society.
Some businesses would not hire a divorced woman, and some would fire a lady if she got divorced.

Divorced Men, did not always fare well either. I forget which Tobacco company , still the company policy was, men did not get divorced. Not if they wanted to keep their job, or move on in advancement with the company.
This was a common practice among many businesses and industries.

The company image was important, so folks did not get divorced
And a lot was not spoken off, instead "kept in the family".




I fired family for darn good reasons.

First off, call me a wimp, but I am allergic to projectiles fired from guns.

Some were relatives, and wanted to make a fast buck. So besides the models of criminals everyone deals with, I had to concern myself with models we called "professional" criminals.
No offense, but many of you are not worth their time, for return of investment.

I speak of "perceptions" and "keeping mouth shut" and all that I do, from real deal life experiences.
Blood kin, told various models of criminals about me. Now "family" never really knew what all I did, and still don't. Just the "day job" was enticing enough for a crook.

My own "family" has set me up, and I have been shot at, had attempt at kidnapping, and other fun and wonderful things.

There is half brother, that has tried to sell me out, more than once. He has some nasty friends.

The lady that gave me birth, to this day is not aware of what all I was raised doing and did.
No offense, still dumb as a brick, in regard to ways of the world.

She never knew what all her mom, and one brother was familiar with, and she grew up with them.
This lady would ask where I was going, or had been in travels, and it was always fishing, hunting, competition, or vacation I told her.

She had some phone numbers for my "work" and our people told her what they did, to keep me safe.
It was none of her damn business, and it was for her own damn good she not know as well.



My first wife, had a rich grandma. While married, I got this statement in, saying I had made something like $200,000 interest.
I ain't got that kind of money to make that kind of interest.
This old broad had money.
Tight.
To her there was nothing wrong in opening a bank account and using one of her families social security numbers.
Open an account for $5000, and get a free TV. If you do $25,000, you get a free ski vacation, and that "gift" is for a grand kid graduating from school.

Felony.
Eighty year old , rich grandma, had committed a felony. Yeah she had guns, her late husband had nice guns.
She never messed with guns ...but what harm is a old rich bitty with guns, that pulls this kind of felony?
She ain't.



So I worked a deal to keep her out of prison. I mean a 80-something year old broad, does not need to go to prison, for stealing my ID, to make $200,000 interest.
Felony did not happen, and those family heirlooms were kept to be passed forward.

I divorced that first wife, when I came home earlier than expected from traveling and found her in bed with another man.


My second wife, is the only person that has some idea, of me.
We dated out of HS, then split up, as happens.
We met again some decades and got married.

Now she is smart, and perceptive. When we dated, Evil came for me.
As careful as I was, and we had our our body guards, they saw me dating this gal.
So evil went after her, to get to me.

She had to let in the loop, a little bit, for her safety.
I got us "made" simply because the boss thought it would be nice if we went to a nice place to eat, to celebrate her birthday.
Body guards were present. Boss man arranged a limo, and paid for her nice new mini-skirt, and flowers, and I got dressed up and it was really special.

There is no way anyone could know we were going out to eat, just us.
I'll be darned if some serious pros were not in town, and were leaving, as we entered.
[Best we could figure after the fact].
How they recognized me, is still a mystery, still they did.
Pros put a tail on my girlfriend.
She picked them up the next day. Smart girl, she stayed put, called a beat cop she knew I knew, and he called my boss.

Full tilt boogie making sure my girlfriend was safe. Female body guards showed up, and fast!
I had left early the next morning and was over 300 miles away.
She had no idea where I was going, just I was "going to play harder than I worked".
Just what I did, finish the job, and then go shoot some competition.

Girlfriend had guns, being a country gal, she was raised with guns, and she could shoot.
Boss said "whatever she needs, whatever she wants". Female body guards and my girlfriend went "shopping".
She needed guns that she could CCW and she wore mini-skirts a lot for her work.
She got some private lessons from our guys and gals too.

She was not 21 years old, and she carried concealed.
She had been carrying a gun forever on the property, and her vehicle.
A gun was kept in her daddy's truck, and her relative's vehicles, and her brothers.
Anytime she, one of her sisters used a vehicle, they had a gun.
When she and her sister bought a car to share, her uncle gave them a gun, to keep in that car.

That house she grew up in, and her parents still live in?
WE get married and the preventive measures my kind did decades before, were still in play.

Her daddy was a Vet, disabled, and "sir, you know about evil, and all you need to know is we are doing stuff to keep not only my girlfriend safe, also the other kids living at home, and you and your wife".

Her daddy saluted me, and I was never in the Military, and then he bear hugged me.
"I got this powerful pistol" he said of his .38spl.
This brave Vet, got teary eyed when I gave him a brand new gun like the one he had and a couple of cases of ammo.

He liked his gun, and kept it in the bedroom. His wife died laughing when one of our gals fitted him with a nice belt, and holster for his new gun.
"Momma, help!" he said of these young good lookers.

Turn about is fair play, we had frilly garter we did as a joke.
I asked my girlfriends mom to "show me skin darling and lets you get you rigged for a sexy holster."

Her parents liked me a lot, so all this razzing and cutting up, was fine. She she turned red as beet, and did her husband.

WE fixed her up with a pistol she shot well, and holster, and some new aprons.
We just toted guns out, and let her shoot some out back to see what fit her, and she liked.

I'd come over and these folks were shooting out back. We even set up a replica of the house outside and did practiced plans.
Her momma was something else with her apron and revolver...
She had this "get hands out of soapy sink doing dishes and shooting the BGs" down to a tee!

Her parents never got a CCW, and all their lives they had guns. Pa carried concealed in his work, and had one in the truck. Ma never learned to drive, but she always carried one around the house and property, going to see relative and neighbors that lived close, and whenever she rode with someone.

Every once in awhile, she would catch the Greyhound that ran "up and down the main road", and head "on down the road" for something and catch a ride back on another Greyhound coming back, or get a ride back with someone she knew.

Her husband was working, kids with cars were gone, her brother had taken is wife to town , and one of her friends some 10 miles away had a new grand baby.
She took the Greyhound to see this new grand baby and brought it some sleeping gowns she had made.
Toted her gun, and did not need anyone's permission to be out and about doing what a mom, housewife, has a right to do.


After the incident with her daughter my girlfriend, some security measures were taken, and her parents were appreciative and understanding.

"Folks got rights, and gonna lose 'em if'n they ain't careful". - her daddy.
Just a country boy, a disabled Vet...smart man.
 
Cannot vote. It depends on YOUR definition of the word "restrict". I don't know if a background check is a "restriction" or not in your book.

If you can't legally buy a weapon without a certain procedure, I would classify the law mandating that procedure as a "restriction." It stands between you and the gun.

In the case of the background check, clearly it restricts all of those who don't pass the background check from legally acquiring a gun.

So it's a restriction, and a meaningful one.
 
TexasRifleMan: Ok, I'll bite:

From what I've read in history, it seems that back in the '60 there was never an issue of drug cartels generating so much income that buying a military attack submarine to smuggle coke/pot/pills in the U.S. was possible, or even conceivable. Hell, for anyone other then a super-power to own one was inconceivable, best I can tell.

Duke of Doubt: Did the Sons of Liberty do like the likes of Bloods, Crips, MS13, etc. exist do today, for whom robbing a 7-11 can include casually killing the attendant for no other reason then he was there?

Did said group casually walk into general stores, steal all the money behind the counter and casually kill the employee(s), because, well, uh, they looked funny?

Additionally, back in the day, was there as much a problem with mind-altering substance abuse? Specifically, I am talking about cocaine or methamphetamines, both of which very efficiently disable impulse control making violence much more likely out of individual.
 
My ICBM is just an inanimate object. It can't magically cause me to launch it.

It's totally irrational for anyone to worry about my possession of this ICBM, or the ICBMs of my fellow ICBM Club members. Now, if you'll excuse me, it's Show and Tell night at the club. After that, beer pong.

After that, a discussion of why so many people fear the mass production and distribution of ICBMs, which are merely inanimate objects with massive potential for causing death and destruction and can't actually make somebody use them for that purpose. Sheesh.

Tell you what, I'll happily debate private ownership of nuclear weaponry once we've repealed or rationally amended all of the petty, byzantine laws that can result in one being arrested, charged, and thrown in prison for the following:

  • affixing a bayonet to a rifle
  • failing to renew a license to own a gun
  • traveling through a state with guns the local government doesn't like
  • having a rifle or shotgun with a barrel shorter than some arbitrary length
  • affixing a stock to a handgun
  • inadvertently carrying a weapon into an arbitrarily prohibited location
  • building or owning a muffler without federal permission
  • owning a gun chambered in a caliber arbitrarily deemed to be of no "sporting" use
  • owning a foreign-made firearm that does not contain an arbitrary number of US-made parts
  • defining a firearm as a "machine gun" simply because it can accept magazines with a capacity over 11 rounds...

I could go on, but that list is just off the top of my head, and doesn't even delve into the ridiculous regulations governing manufacturing of firearms, ammunition, and shooting accessories.

When you have to resort to the "Well what about private ownership of NUCLEAR WEAPONS ZOMG!" trope, you've lost the argument by plainly demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about. Furthermore, by resulting to such an outlandish red herring you prove that you have no actual or honest interest in exploring or evaluating the rationality or efficacy of current US policy regarding firearms ownership.

I mean, if you want to spin off into some kind of wacky fantasy world where you want to yammer like an idiot about private WMD ownership, go ahead. But in the mean time, all of the grownups will be discussing how the laws are applied in the real world and evaluating whether or not they're just and effective.
 
-v-: "Duke of Doubt: Did the Sons of Liberty do like the likes of Bloods, Crips, MS13, etc. exist do today, for whom robbing a 7-11 can include casually killing the attendant for no other reason then he was there?"

Sort of. The Sons of Liberty tarred and feathered (no small thing-- often lethal) tories and loyalists, and burnt them out (meaning, torched their homes and businesses).

"Did said group casually walk into general stores, steal all the money behind the counter and casually kill the employee(s), because, well, uh, they looked funny?"

Sort of. If they were suspected loyalists, yes indeed. Across the border there exists a series of provinces called the "Canadian Maritimes." New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Prince Edward, so forth. Those used to be British colonies much like Massachusetts Bay, Carolina, et cetera. Loyalists fled there, and our 1776 invasion of them failed. The Territory of Maine suffered somewhat in consequence. Anyway, the point is that the Sons of Liberty were rather rough around the edges, indeed.

"Additionally, back in the day, was there as much a problem with mind-altering substance abuse? Specifically, I am talking about cocaine or methamphetamines, both of which very efficiently disable impulse control making violence much more likely out of individual."

Oh, yes! Cocaine used to be a household remedy. I've seen an antique porcellain cocaine receptacle. But cocaine is so yesterday. Today's illegal drug industry centers around abuse of prescription painkillers, like crushed vicadin and percocets.
 
affixing a bayonet to a rifle
I was unaware that was a crime in any state. I know in some states a bayonet lug can be illegal, but affixing a bayonet is illegal?
 
ilbob: "I was unaware that was a crime in any state. I know in some states a bayonet lug can be illegal, but affixing a bayonet is illegal?"

If a post-1989 Chinese SKS, yes under 922.
 
Yes, I support certain gun control laws.

I support background checks.
I support 18 yr old minimum age for long guns.
I support 21 yr old minimum age for handguns.
I support the restrictions on fully automatic guns.
I support CCW licensing. I don't want just anybody who is old enough to be able to carry concealed. I am glad classes are required, so at least the individual has SOME training.

Those are about the only gun control laws I support.
 
I was living in Hollywood when the North Hollywood shootout happened, and I remember it well.

For most level-headed observers, the incident demonstrated how much more devastating common crimes would be if most criminals had easy access to automatic weapons.

The two bank robbers fired 1100 rounds during the approximately 45-minute incident. Ten police officers and seven civilians were injured.

Seventeen casualties. And this was just a bank robbery and getaway.

Seven civilians were injured even though the gunmen weren't primarily targeting civilians.

A person with a normally functioning brain can see how much greater the damage would have been if the intended crime was mass murder instead of bank robbery.

Normally thinking people can also clearly see the escalation problem. The LAPD and other police departments significantly increased their available firepower in response to the North Hollywood shootout. Suppose automatic weapons get even easier to obtain, and thus more criminals have access to them. Now police departments need even more firepower.

It's not hard to understand why people who live in cities where these kinds of incidents occur aren't in favor of more crossfire.
 
I support background checks.
prior restraint.

I support 18 yr old minimum age for long guns.
I support 21 yr old minimum age for handguns.
There is an age beneath which it is inappropriate for children to have access to firearms w/o supervision. I don't pretend to know what that age is and it certainly varies from child to child.

I support the restrictions on fully automatic guns
Has a MG ever hurt you? or anyone you know?

I support CCW licensing. I don't want just anybody who is old enough to be able to carry concealed. I am glad classes are required, so at least the individual has SOME training
More prior restraint. Do you support mandatory training before one is allowed to post on an Internet forum?
 
Where in the second does it say you have a right to keep and bear arms but...?

North Hollywood shootout
All those CA and Federal gun laws sure helped stop those guys from buying illegal firearms...

A person with a normally functioning brain can see how much greater the damage would have been if the intended crime was mass murder instead of bank robbery.
Glad to know I am not normal. To me if the people were allowed to choose for themselves if they are armed or not a "mass" murder may never take place. It is very difficult to get the jump of a crowd of people when most of them are likely armed. Sure you will get a few but once the rest turn on you it is over.
 
Duke: Oh, yes! Cocaine used to be a household remedy.

Doh! My bad on that one. I actually did completely forget about it. Especially considering all modern -caine (lidocaine, novocaine, etc.) anesthetics are synthetic versions or derivatives of cocaine.

I will still debate you on the Sons of Liberty being anything like the human refuse that is the modern street gang. I could see the analogy in that any political activist group (Russia's Nashi, Sons of Liberty, Chinese Red Guards, etc.) is like a gang, however, they are not a criminal enterprise whose business model revolves around criminal activity. Thus I can't really say that a political group is a gang. If anything, a criminal gang is more of the equivalent to the old notion of brigands or pirates. Back in the day they had some very nice ways of dealing with pirates and brigands. Shame we have replaced that with the revolving door policy instead.

Justin: And Georgia.

ilbob: More prior restraint. Do you support mandatory training before one is allowed to post on an Internet forum?
Most other forums considered, that would be a resounding YES.
 
-v-: "Back in the day they had some very nice ways of dealing with pirates and brigands. Shame we have replaced that with the revolving door policy instead."

Indeed! And I say that as a practicing criminal defense attorney. Some of my guys have wished for the traditional remedy visited on pirates.
 
For most level-headed observers, the incident demonstrated how much more devastating common crimes would be if most criminals had easy access to automatic weapons.

Criminals DO have easy access to automatic weapons.

It's not that difficult.

That's the part you keep leaving out. They are for sale all over the country. Just last week we saw a (NFL was it?) pro athlete convicted of possession of machine guns. He bought a few for his personal body guards. They are used in drive-by's all the time in gang related shootings.

They are all over the place, just illegal.

Criminals could use them all the time if they wanted to. Real life criminals, however, don't sit around watching HEAT over and over again until they decide it's time to go rob a bank. Real life criminals don't spend much on guns, they consider guns throw away items. This is why even semi automatic rifles are rarely used in crime, they cost too much to throw away.
 
A person with a normally functioning brain can see how much greater the damage would have been if the intended crime was mass murder instead of bank robbery.

If I were prone to fetishizing particular types of firearms to the point of conferring magical abilities to them that somehow transferred to the operator of such a weapon, I might agree.

But then again, were I of such a mindset, I'd probably try to conflate nuclear weapons with small arms, too.
 
I support CCW licensing. I don't want just anybody who is old enough to be able to carry concealed. I am glad classes are required, so at least the individual has SOME training.

We Pennsylvanians must scare the crap out of you then. No training required before being issued a license to carry. Blood must be running in the streets, right??
 
A person with a normally functioning brain can see how much greater the damage would have been if the intended crime was mass murder instead of bank robbery.

Glad to know I am not normal. To me if the people were allowed to choose for themselves if they are armed or not a "mass" murder may never take place. It is very difficult to get the jump of a crowd of people when most of them are likely armed. Sure you will get a few but once the rest turn on you it is over.
__________________
 
I love how so many people here think that banning criminals from having guns makes any difference. If they can't be trusted in society don't let them out of prison unless they're in a pine box.
 
On April 18th 1775, a silversmith named Paul Revere announced "The British Are Coming", as he rode his horse to warn...

Is that what he actually said? :)

Interesting that two other riders who completed their tasks w/o being arrested by the Redcoats never really got their fair place in the history books.
 
None. If you're too dangerous to own a gun, why are you still out on the streets? ANY law that restricts civilian gun ownership in ANY way is simply making the world more dangerous.
 
If they can't be trusted in society don't let them out of prison unless they're in a pine box.
I would bet at least some criminals can be trusted outside of prison if there is adequate supervision and an appropriate set of rules for them to live by.
 
I was living in Hollywood when the North Hollywood shootout happened, and I remember it well.

For most level-headed observers, the incident demonstrated how much more devastating common crimes would be if most criminals had easy access to automatic weapons.

The two bank robbers fired 1100 rounds during the approximately 45-minute incident. Ten police officers and seven civilians were injured.

Seventeen casualties. And this was just a bank robbery and getaway.

Seven civilians were injured even though the gunmen weren't primarily targeting civilians.

A person with a normally functioning brain can see how much greater the damage would have been if the intended crime was mass murder instead of bank robbery.

Normally thinking people can also clearly see the escalation problem. The LAPD and other police departments significantly increased their available firepower in response to the North Hollywood shootout. Suppose automatic weapons get even easier to obtain, and thus more criminals have access to them. Now police departments need even more firepower.

It's not hard to understand why people who live in cities where these kinds of incidents occur aren't in favor of more crossfire.

a few things:
-the AKs they used were illegally converted to full-auto. The MG freeze would not have stopped them.
-the innocent civilians should not have been standing 50 yards away from an armed robbery.
-full-auto or semi-auto wouldnt have made a difference; they could have easily just relied on quick trigger fingers
-the main problem was that the police were outgunned, not that the assailants had full-autos

if the same thing happened again, it would have ended in a stand-off inside, or the men would have been gunned down the moment they stepped outside to face police armed with AR-15s
 
ilbob: "Is that what he actually said?"

No. He said a lot of things, but most frequently "The Regulars are coming out!"
 
Would a lower percentage of criminal gun use in a country with strong gun control suffice?

England?

Oh, wait, that would be an example where strong gun control preceded a continuous rise in gun crime.

For every example that can be claimed as an example of "strong gun control" having a beneficial effect on crime rates there's a counter example showing increasing crime, and gun crime, rates after introduction of "strong gun control" measures.

The fact that this occurs indicates that the wrong variable is being seen as having a controlling influence. The tools available for criminals use do not determine what class of crimes they commit (unless demonic possession of the individual by the weapon is assumed).
 
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