Does carrying with one in the chamber make anybody else uneasy?

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I've carried a 1911 since the early 80s......for the first few years the thought of carrying cocked and locked was unnerving. I took a weekend combat pistol course.
It was a small class, only 8 students and the instructor. We would shoot, maybe multiple targets, multiple times, never knew when the instructor would tell us to shoot another round into the head or torso of the targets. At the end of each round he had us engage the safety and holster our pistols. In the middle of a drill we would empty the mag and insert a loaded mag, this could come at any point during our time on the firing line.After shooting aprox ,450 rounds that weekend, I have carried some version of 1911 cocked and locked and have never felt uncomfortable
 
OP, forget about the possibility of being paranoid. That is not the essence of the matter. The question is whether carrying without one in the tube is wise. In my opinion the answer is NO. Consider this. If you ever have to draw the gun in a hostile encounter it most likely that you will facing an attacker who has a deadly weapon. Many persons interested in self defense fail to know that an attack on them is likely to be over in three to ten seconds with one party hurting worse than the other.

There is a Youtube channel that shows and analyzes violent attacks and their outcomes. I forget the name of it but someone reading this remember it. Watch some of those videos. You will see just how fast an attack unfolds. Then consider this. A healthy person can close a 21 foot distance on the run in 3 to 4 seconds. Then consider this. A knife attack is going to happen when the attacker is in your face or at your back. Response time getting the shot off is critical to survival.

Someone above asked about your practicing elements. He was right to ask. The way to carry a gun safely is to practice how to safely do all that is necessary.

Almost forgot this. If you have to rack a round into the chamber you always face the possibility of a failure, especially when you are hurried, anxious, etc. With one on the tube you just pull the trigger.
 
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OP, my two-cents, if carrying your Kel-Tec P-32 in condition 3 makes you feel more comfortable about carrying it holstered in your pocket then do so because it is better than going unarmed.
 
Basis for that assertion?

News reports from the CO front range on CCW whoopsies versus CCW attaboys for non-home defense. Event the small number of times the AD/ND gun is actually mentioned outnumbers the times a "successful" shooting occurs. Fortunately, the AD/ND episodes outside the home have a relatively low fatality rate, otherwise the viability of civilian CCW could be more successfully questioned by pundits.
 
More accurately stated, then, "it appears from news reports that the number of NDs exceeds the number of reported SD shootings".
 
More accurately stated, then, "it appears from news reports that the number of NDs exceeds the number of reported SD shootings".

No, that is NOT a "more accurate" statement.

ND epsiodes with striker guns outnumber the number of SD shootings. The type of gun in a civilian ND can't always be determined from news reports or other sources, but even that smaller number of documented striker platform events exceed the number of SD shootings outside the home.

Striker fans may not like it, but unfortunately Mr. Murphy is more likely to put a divot in the floor of the Macy's changing room with his "great trigger" striker gun than use it to stop a criminal event at the 7-11.

To the OP, your carry gun should be fully chambered, but being uneasy about the ease of a trigger activation is completely reasonable and based on the reality of actual events.

I am a huge proponent of citizen concealed carry, but I also believe, similar to the Hippocratic Oath, that "do no harm" is paramount over supposed tactical superiority.
 
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ND epsiodes with striker guns outnumber the number of SD shootings. The type of gun in a civilian ND can't always be determined from news reports or other sources, but even that smaller number of documented striker platform events exceed the number of SD shootings outside the home.
It appears that you are stating as facts things that you have gathered by reading of news reports that you have seen. That is not a scientific method, and the conclusions would be very questionable,

On other thing: according to published studies, the number of successful defensive uses of firearms far exceeds the number of times in which firearms are lawfully discharged.

being uneasy about the ease of a trigger activation is completely reasonable
I agree with that. The question becomes one of how to mitigate that risk without creating another serious risk.

I do not think that carrying a semiautomatic pistol with an empty chamber would accomplish that. I think it likely that most people have enough trouble moving off line, drawing, and firing a couple of shots into a fast moving target in less than a second and a half without having to rack a slide. That is certainly true for me.

My preference is a pistol with a grip safety, and I do not care whether it is striker fired or fired by a concealed hammer.
 
More accurately stated, then, "it appears from news reports that the number of NDs exceeds the number of reported SD shootings".
can someone explain what NDs and SD shootings means, so i can follow this thread?

thanks
 
I've likely told this story a dozen times, at least, but I was a 1911 guy, through and through, when shall issue became law in Michigan. But I thought double-action to be the best for carry, and safest. I went through the motions and research to find my perfect DA carry. Found it, and it never really gave me the confidence I had in the 1911. Carried it less than a year, and it became a safe queen and $759 mistake, while I purchased a 3" 1911, which completely outclassed the DA in every way. Have carried it now for 18 years straight. Neither one, though, did I think of ever carrying without one in the chamber. My P32 is my BUG, for nearly the same amount of time, and is always in my back pocket-one in the chamber also.
 
It appears that you are stating as facts things that you have gathered by reading of news reports that you have seen. That is not a scientific method, and the conclusions would be very questionable,

I agree its non-scientific, but hardly inaccurate. The Denver area media will absolutely report any civilian mishap with a gun, ESPECIALLY if that occurs in a "public" area. A true civilian self-defense shooting in public will also get reported, since it is a such rare bird. After years of daily media observation, I standby my anecdotal assessment as being more fact than fantasy.

One other thing: according to published studies, the number of successful defensive uses of firearms far exceeds the number of times in which firearms are lawfully discharged.

Correct, but we are discussing "gun go boom" events outside of the home, not all defensive usage.

I agree with that. The question becomes one of how to mitigate that risk without creating another serious risk.

I do not think that carrying a semiautomatic pistol with an empty chamber would accomplish that. I think it likely that most people have enough trouble moving off line, drawing, and firing a couple of shots into a fast moving target in less than a second and a half without having to rack a slide. That is certainly true for me.

My preference is a pistol with a grip safety, and I do not care whether it is striker fired or fired by a concealed hammer.

I absolutely agree that a semi-auto needs to be carried chambered. My preference would be for a gun that is carried in the full DAO condition (like a P290RS or 3914DAO, not a Glockish DAO), with the ability to achieve a lighter trigger being a valid option for the more skilled shooter (traditional DA/SA platform).
 
Kel-Tec P32- from owners manual.

After firing, the hammer block holds the hammer
away from the firing pin, providing a mechanical safety.

This is the same safety measure as used on a S&W J frame revolver.
 
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Just for curiousity, have the unchambered proponents taken any serious one handed or injured shooter training and/or serious FOF training that might entail real moving opponents and entangled interactions?

I was just thinking about that.

He or she who shoots at the square range at a stationary target at which one has been planning to shoot may have no idea whatsoever about how a defensive use of force incident is likely to unfold, or about how little time will likely be able to the defender in the event.

Good defensive pistol training--from Ayoob, Givens, Gila Hays, Seeklander, Werner, or some of the other good ones--woulld surely teach them something more, and viewing videos from The Best Defense TV will be a real eye-opener.

Here's one worth watching:



Costly? Not if it results in the saving of life. And it should be a prerequisite for giving advice to how gun owners.

Good FoF training is best, but not easy to find, and likely not available to anyone who has not "graduated" from prerequisite courses.

FoF training with AirsSoft could help, as long as there is good instructor.

Try a set of scenarios based on the following:
  • One defender and three others in a parking lot setting with vehicles and other obstacles
  • One person has a training knife behind his leg and will attack
  • The two others have other things--cell phones, handkerchiefs, etc.
  • The others get paid much more if the defender loses
  • A draw too soon is a loss
  • Drawing on an innocent is a loss
  • An ND that does not strike anyone is a loss
  • Shooting an innocent is a BIG loss
  • Getting touched by the training knife before scoring two hits is a BIG loss
Try multiple variations. A loss on more than one occasion is a disqualification requiring the defender to war a dunce cap.

Try with and without "one in the pipe".

The instructor is the judge.
 
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The way I did it was to fall and break my wrist, my ribs and badly sprained my ankle. I was in a shoulder to wrist cast for a bit and then forearm cast over my wrist and hand. It was my dominant hand. Serendipitously , I was signed up to take an injured shooter class from KRtraining and Ayoob's LFI-1 with Stressfire. So I did them one handed with a Glock 19.

I can handle a gun one handed. I can reload - not quickly. I can rack, one handed.

I would never voluntarily handicap myself to having to engage in one handed manipulations if I didn't.

Why do I say one handed, because in an incident you may have one hand injured, you may have to help a child or partner, use a phone, etc.I've been 'shot' in the hand in FOF, hand smashed in knife class. We did a run to save 'baby' at Tom Given's Polite Society (before it was Tac-con) and I was the cover picture of me shooting one handed, with the baby in the other arm for his newsletter. A SWAT friend said of the picture that it showed great form. My artistic daughter like the composition of the action dynamic. Marty Hayes of FAS took the picture.

What I find amusing is that after the KRtraining class, Paul Gomez (an excellent trainer and SME who has passed way before his time) would refer to me as a tough guy. Hahah! Just a FOG, who reads all the unchambered debates and discards them. I've carried the dreaded polymer striker pistol since 1994, through tens of classes and hundreds of matches plus as an EDC. Quality holster, skills and practice - that washes away the arguments we have seen presented here.

Pocket carry also at times with a DeSantis - which by the way, is recommended by professionals. A Glock 42 or a J frame (which I also train with and compete with - not a square range queen set). If someone says they carry a modern revolver on an empty cylinder - let's be real, they have announced that they don't know what they are talking about.

The cause of NDs for the most part is trigger on the finger. This has been studied by human factors types. The solution is practice and training. I recall running a course with an AR and the SO saying I have excellent trigger discipline. That's because I put in the time.

If you can't or won't, the liability is in your lap.
 
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I've carried the dreaded polymer striker pistol since 1994, through tens of classes and hundreds of matches plus as an EDC. Quality holster, skills and practice - that washes away the arguments we have seen presented here.

All that it indicates is that you are highly trained and have decreased YOUR probability of having an ND issue.

If someone says they carry a modern revolver on an empty cylinder - let's be real, they have announced that they don't know what they are talking about.

Yes- I concur.

The cause of NDs for the most part is trigger on the finger. This has been studied by human factors types. The solution is practice and training. I recall running a course with an AR and the SO saying I have excellent trigger discipline. That's because I put in the time.

Once again, all that it indicates is that you are highly trained and have decreased your probability of having an ND issue. This has no bearing on Johnny Q. Citizen who is relatively new to handguns and is selecting a carry methodology, gun and holster. The "keep your booger hook off the bang switch" expression doesn't help the situation. The goal is reducing the ways that Murphy can strike.

If you can't or won't, the liability is in your lap.

Absolutely. So for Johnny Q. Citizen who wants to protect themselves or their family, and doesn't have the ability/interest to become a dedicated "operator", a tactically effective platform with a greater margin for error is the best choice.
 
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