Does it matter?

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The Tourist

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In another thread here, the OP discusses the effectiveness of various brands of .380 ammunition. I was going to respond, but I have an opinion on ammo that might alter his debate.

First off, the disclaimers. My opinion covers only, only, only situations where all other options are denied. If attacked with deadly force, and there's a window open, I'll jump.

My initial response to that thread was that I carry .380 Golden Sabers. But then I thought, does it matter? If I'm coming back from the range, and all I have is hardball, do I call for mercy which I know will never come? Of course not, I fire the ball.

Granted, these decisions should be made long before any sign of confrontation. However, my house is not an armed camp as described by Mel Tappen. It's my home. There's pistols in strategic locations, but I don't carry a designated "pajama gun."

Same with knives. A knife for me is a tool. Here again, I choose a strong, useful and sharp example to best fit my needs as an EDC. I do not carry a bowie plucked from the pages of a Keating defense manifesto.

So here's the conclusion to the postulates of my side of the debate.

It doesn't matter, and I don't care.

In over 2/3's of any situation, my wife will be within ten feet of me, even in public shopping. That's the factor from which all other decisions are derived.

Any weapon will be utilized to the best advantage. Any new information applied. If the gun runs empty, use the knife, if the knife breaks, use the motorcycle boots. But within the tightened parameters of a no-retreat predicament, I don't think name brands mean a thing.

It's going to work, or it isn't.
 
Any weapon will be utilized to the best advantage.
I have no argument with your post....We have these needless disagreements about which ammo is best in any caliber, but yet I feel it is negated by "placement & repetitive of shots"....:)
 
I don't think "it" matters as much as most people think it does.

"It" being any given caliber or weapon debate of your choosing.


-T.
 
I was going to respond, but I have an opinion on ammo that might alter his debate.

A nicely written and thoughtfull original post/thread.

However, I highly doubt it will change the debate in the least.

Unfortunatley, the debate over "which caliber is the best" or "why .380 sucks" will rage on.

And much bandwith will be wasted.
 
What you said is true.
However it's human nature to look for that little edge anywhere you can do it. Gearheads look for that extra tenth of a second in the 1/4 mile, Shooters look for that extra tenth of an inch expansion or inch of penetration, etc.
Will it matter? Very doubtful. But it's fun to geek out over numbers and stats sometimes.
 
"It" may not be important but confidence is. Some find confidence through training and others through being outfitted as aggressively as their lifestyle allows although for most I think it is a combination of both.

Just because I am trained to use a sharp pencil as a weapon dose not mean I don't want to discuss how best to load my gun.


ETA: The pencil remark was just an example. I have not actually received pencil combat training and I can not offer advice about it.
 
DoubleTapDrew said:
However it's human nature to look for that little edge

Oh, no question. I put 203 cams in my Dyna this winter. But I wasn't going to cry if they were back-ordered.

The same here with ammo. If a new derivative of the Golden Saber appeared, and Massad Ayoob and Dick Metcalf reported on its excellence, of course, I'd go looking for a box. But if the sporting goods store as out I wouldn't fill the moat, lock the drawbridge and boil the oil.

There are simply too many other important factors in defense.

XDKingslayer said:
It doesn't matter because the .380 is NOT a good self defence round.

If I was looking for an offensive weapon/cartridge, I might indeed agree with you. But I'm your average 'boomer, retired suburban guy.

What I need is a weapon/system that guarantees me the best chance to withdraw.

If you re-visit my original entry you'll see a disclaimer I feel is very true. Just because we might have a "castle doctrine" does not mean it's the best first choice.

As stated, if I'm out in the world there's a very good chance my wife will be with me. There's a saying around here about "your mouth writing a check for your body to cash." In this case, my actions with a firearm could very easily draw fire into my wife's area.

I try and make good decisions, but I'm not one of those "live to lift" style gym rats. And for me personally, personally, personally, I'm more concerned on how than what.
 
Nobody here, despite their passion for various cartridges, can PROVE which is the best self-defense round.

I do not care what size the bullet is or how much it weighs. I don't care what the muzzle energy is. I defy any of the people who wax so hot about various cartridges to provide one piece of incontrovertible PROOF to back up their claims.
 
"I do not care what size the bullet is or how much it weighs."

So, do you think the .17 HM2 is a good self defense round? Would the .17 HMR be better because it's faster? :)

And yes, I have a .17 HMR revolver with a red dot on it. :cool:

I learned a few things about mass and velocity studying physics.

John
 
John,
I don't make any claims about cartridge effectiveness. I am not supporting any position.

All I am saying is that no one has made any convincing argument that their favorite cartridge is actually as good as they claim in practical use. With your background in physics you should be able to PROVE that a certain cartridge is a better self-defense round than the 17.

This whole cartridge argument is a load of hot air. The trouble is that some of the spurious recommendations made can confuse and mislead newcomers.
 
Given the tenor of The Tourist's post; I cannot argue with him. He did not invite a technical breakdown of the round or bullet composition. He, in my opinion, simply posited that one will use what is at hand and if it is .380 caliber FMJ rounds then so be it. I don't carry a .380 as I have the option of being able to carry a larger caliber but given the choice between a .380 and something smaller...
 
I understand the OP's post and agree that you are going to use what you have at hand to your best advantage but I want the biggest advantage I can get. There have been significant advances in the design of hollowpoint ammo that results in more reliable expansion, etc. but where we get bogged down (IMO) is in the miniscule differences between the products of the major players. In other words are Gold Dots really that much better than Golden Sabers given the same caliber, weight, etc. Each of these companies spend lots of money to sway your opinion and this is where I have come around, finally, to believing that they are all about equal or close enough that in the end it is really up to me and my abilities. Having said that I would certainly prefer, as an example, a top of the line 9mm hollowpoint over a 9mm FMJ as I do believe there is a greater likelihood in the hollowpoint putting an end to the aggression more quickly.

Mike
 
I agree with Tourist's "I don't care". I doubt if it really makes any difference what is in your pistol when it's needed. I doubt if making a conscious choice in bullet types on any particular SD occasion is going to help at all. You just cannot call the circumstances under which the pistol will be used. In the same confrontation you may need a hollow-point for the first shot and the penetration of a solid for the second shot - or vice versa.

And to add more fuel to the fire - I don't think hollow-points work as advertised. They can be made to expand under test circumstances but I have seen many, many, hollow-points that have failed to expand reliably under real conditions, in all calibers from 22 to 45, in all materials from wood to firm clay. Use whatever bullet you feel good about, but I would not rely on advertising claims if it was the only factor between success and failure.
 
Mr_Rogers said:
And to add more fuel to the fire - I don't think hollow-points work as advertised.

Don't worry, sir, even if such a debating point would enrage some of the crowd, this is a serious questioning of conduct by a person, not delineation of raw hardware.

Granted, the concept goes hand in hand. A shooter choosing the best stuff, I get that. And I try to pick reliable hollowpoints.

But in the research surrounding the Miami/FBI tests, the researchers found things like denim, drywall and leather kept the hollowpoints from performing as designed.

But we must mention that these bullets were of that era. For the purposes of my debate as the OP, has modern technology made much of a difference?

For that part of the debate, I too as skeptical. A plated bullet like a Gold Dot will hang together under intense impact. A Golden Saber uses the pre-fragged idea. A Hydra-Shok utilizes the concept of hydraulics. And these are all good designing improvements, no question.

My position, again, is simply stating the point of view that you cannot schedule an emergency. Heck, I even own Glaser Safety slugs in .44 Rem Mag.

Based on reading, reloading, anecdotal evidence, Evan Marshall (who only collected "one shot" info) and statistics I've come to the personal, personal, personal decision that hardware is less of a factor than we believe.
 
No.

I am a realist, and the reality is anything that takes life with also cease to live.
One starts on the path of ceasing to live the split second after they draw their first breath.

It does not matter if one is law abiding, or a criminal, this is just the way it is.
So for those looking for "Absolutes" make a note of this.

Bad things happen to law abiding, and good things happen to criminals.
Life is hard and then you die.

Viewing life through a new pair of glasses, allows one to take steps on the path of acceptance.
One's perceptions change...

One is not putting stock into physical things only to keep one safe.
The animal kingdom will teach one invaluable lessons in how to stay safe, and avoid having to defend.
The animal kingdom will also share, skill sets will triumph over greater evil.

Quail.
I was raised and mentored to respect Quail and to learn from them how to stay safe.
A Beautiful bird, no bigger than one's fist, and it has to survive in harsh environments, against not only predators, also natural occurrances in nature such as fire, flood, tornadoes, weather...


History is another great teacher if one pays attention.
There was a time before Internet, TV, Radio, Magazines, Newspapers, Telephone, Telegraph...communications were just not what we have today.

Peoples again survived, and skill sets, not putting absolute faith in just physical things were the key.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Ninety percent of fishing related items are designed to catch fisherperson's wallets - not fish.

Blind faith will get you imprisoned, hurt, or dead.

So in the big scheme of things, no, it does not matter, because when it your time to get hurt, or die, you will, and it does not matter if you are law abiding or a criminal.


I have worked in the main operating room of a hospital and not only been in on the surgeries , also organ harvests.

It did not matter what a gun mfg , ammo mfg, magazine, or Internet said.
.380 hard ball has killed, and not killed.
.380 JHP has killed and not killed.

12 ga slugs, and 00 buckshot, have killed, and not killed.
.22 short, long, and long rifle , both lead round nose, and hollow point have killed and not killed.


Stopping the threat means stopping what is being done.
It does not mean killing, though killing is one possible result.

Be the firstest with the mostest - General Bedford Forrest , CSA

Momma Quail stops that threat by skills sets such as having taken preventive steps on where her young is in that nest, in that covey.
By awareness and communications with other covey's...
By feigning a broken wing, and getting predators away from her young, and then just about the time that feral cat for instance is about to pounce on her...she Explodes into flight.

She stopped a threat being the firstest with the mostest.
She knows she will die someday, her young she wants to protect to have some living she already has had.


The threat came over a privacy fence, and cut the phone line, thus negating the alarm system.
The lady had been out shooting her Beretta .380 with a tip up barrel.
It was dirty, having had about 150 rds fired through it, and the mags unloaded , and she was going to clean it, then make it ready for use.

The threat came in after hearing the shower come on and waited...
Threat was armed, and stated intent, quite clearly, and the lady was able to insert one hardball round into the barrel and fire one shot.

WE did the organ harvest on the criminal.

She was the firstest with the mostest with one well placed shot.

Her skill sets, learned as a little girl, and she did everything correct, still the criminal's time to die had come.
 
At the time of the event, no (unless it is a situation where surrender is a viable survival option). To the point where you can control it, yes. I generally carry a .380 in the heat and keep hollow points in it assuming most people in the southern summer will be dressed lightly and that the hollow point will cause more damage to the vitals with a well placed shot. If I run into a person with bad intentions that happens to be layered up, I may very well wish I had ball. If I had ball, I might run into a person hopped up on drugs and feel that the hollow point would be more likely to impede their action. So choice of cartridge depends somewhat on luck or the providence of God, but if I think I can anticipate an advantage of one over the other then I will take my chances on the one that may give me that advantage.

As sm said so clearly though, the only sure things you will bring to the fight are your skill and courage. If both are significantly higher then your enemy, then it doesn't matter. If not, a small difference may loom large in the outcome.
 
If I was staring down a barrel, I wouldnt want to be shot by any bullet, regardless of caliber, or bullet type. That's deterrance enough.
 
Hey Tourist, do I know you from a motorcycle forum that neither of us no longer belong to? You posted to me, and then we pmed for a bit, and you were such a great guy!!!
 
My favorite posts on this basic subject are the ones made with total authority on what is best. Then the poster says something like, "That's what I'll be buying when I'm old enough". Ya gotta love the internet. :)
I own a large variety of handguns. I carry as suits my situation. Most net-authorities laugh at what I carry 90% of the time. I always wonder how many of them have been shot at, shot, stabbed....or ever actually pulled/used a gun in self defense? As for me? "E"....all of the above (quite a checkered youth). :uhoh:
I'm happy to report that after 55 years I am still intact, in spite of not having the internet way back then to keep me informed on what is BEST. ;)
Jack
 
jackstinson said:
I'm happy to report that after 55 years I am still intact, in spite of not having the internet way back then to keep me informed on what is BEST.

I'm in the same boat, I got into this computer thing quite late. In fact, I'm always amazed when someone younger shows me a feature on my computer that I didn't know was already installed.

(I'm hooked to cable, and supposedly there's a way to watch TV on my lap top. Just what I need, more incentive to do nothing.)

As for gun "info" and groundbreaking discoveries,my Dad used to remind me of something. In my teens, I'd find some new idea, or think I'd discovered something. He'd remind me that he knew the subject in 1931. As for guns, I was casting and shooting and making some sizeable gains--then I read "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith only to find he knew the subjects better in the 1920's.

I remember a conversation I had with a younger guy who was interested in IPSC. He lamented that it was too bad a 9x19mm wouldn't make "major" without skyrocketing pressures. I told him that Keith experimented with those aspects of pressure during the days of "The .44 Associates." I explained that they had used duplex and triplex loads of powder.

I'm alone in the house right now. Next to me is a .380 pistol and a strong latte' for that first hour of cobwebs. In all seriousness, no one is going to bother me.
 
Take a Break!

Couple quick thoughts to OP.

Of course one would fire a slingshot if that's what was all that was available (or a .25acp, or throw a rock). However, at some point you are at a store, under no duress, choosing your ammo, and for that matter even your gun/caliber. So, it is a legitimate question what you choose to use.

THR is the best "gun" board out there. Nevertheless, I would say that a very, very high percentage of stuff written here is worth exactly what you are paying for it. :rolleyes:

Some like to debate things - ANY things - you can probably find sports forums with heated debates about the starting pitching for some team or another, and that matters even less than your caliber/ammo choice! :neener:

I took 1 week this spring and didn't look at THR - my gosh what a tough but liberating thing that was! I now have a few "subscriptions" to threads so posts will be e-mailed me, but other than that, I pop on every 3 days or so for less than 1/2 hour.

THR is great for people seeking concrete information, and for those that like to just sit around and BS about guns. I've certainly used it for both. But one can't take the opinion of the BSers as concrete information!!! :barf:

Have fun with it, or else take a THR vacation - it can be a good thing! We'll all be here when you return. :D

Best to all - stay safe!

FT
 
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