DPMS Panther Arms - Anyone familiar?

[Varminterror]

How would you guys compare a new DPMS to a new Bushmaster?

As they have been for ~20 years, pick your preferred features between the two, regardless of labels. The parts outside of those differences will be the same, just different markings on the lower.

 

[Tommygunn]

How would you guys compare a new DPMS to a new Bushmaster?

What Varminterror said right above. I have a recent DPMS and a recent Bushmaster. Different gasblocks, and I've changed out the pistol grips and handguards, but internally, all the same, and different markings on receiver. Oh...DPMS has its own special cheap stock. Wow. But it functions the same.

 

[cdb1]

I’ve heard numerous times that Bushmaster started to suck when they were brought under the Remington umbrella. The reason being production was moved from the original Bushmaster production facility to a Remington facility-ala Marlin. When DPMS was purchased, Remington had learned their lesson, production stayed at the DPMS plant and DPMS was allowed to operate pretty much autonomously. As a result DPMS quality remained high.

After reading Varminterror’s post I believe what he wrote and now believe what I was told to be just another Internet legend.

 

[cdb1]

duplicate post.

 

[Cygnus]

What specific rifle are you looking at? DPMS makes everything from bare bones entry level rifles to some fairly good quality and accurate rifles. I know a couple people with there higher end AR15's and one with an AR10 that all shoot really well.

As for trinity force, they are bargain priced Chinese made stuff. I used one of their stocks and a grip on a rifle I built for someone and I have a set of their iron sights. Pretty cheap stuff but its functional, at least for a range toy.

The ad I was sent was for a DPMS Oracle, and until then, I had never crossed paths with them. Appreciate the insight on Trinity. Based on the consensus so far on the advertised AR that I should look elsewhere.

 

[cdb1]

Don’t know about the Sportical but what I don’t like about the Oracle is the gas block is a different height than the picatinny rail on the receiver. As such if one wants to use BUIS a standard front sight won’t work and a taller front sight must be purchased.

 

[Cygnus]

Honestly, after reading everyone’s feedback, I’m more confused now than before I posted. Being unfamiliar with DPMS, I’ll probably just pick up another pre-assembled lower, bcg, upper, etc., and put together myself. I do appreciate the insight and feedback. Most interesting.

 

[mcb]

As they have been for ~20 years, pick your preferred features between the two, regardless of labels. The parts outside of those differences will be the same, just different markings on the lower.

What Varminterror said right above. I have a recent DPMS and a recent Bushmaster. Different gasblocks, and I've changed out the pistol grips and handguards, but internally, all the same, and different markings on receiver. Oh...DPMS has its own special cheap stock. Wow. But it functions the same.

Agreed, I guess the implied sarcasm didn't come though, as of about four years ago they are even more the same than most ARs. Other than minor parts that distinguish the various models under each brand. The barrels come off the same machines, uppers and lowers machined on the same machines. The guns assembled on the same assembly lines by the same people. Bushmaster and DPMS both come out of the same Remington factory in Huntsville.

That said the DPMS GII 308 Win (and family of cartridges) is a fairly unique rifle. More akin to a stretched AR-15 than an AR-10. If you can find them the Remington Defense R4E and R10 are nice fully ambidextrous version of the AR-15 and GII.

 

[Varminterror]

That said the DPMS GII 308 Win (and family of cartridges) is a fairly unique rifle. More akin to a stretched AR-15 than an AR-10.

This is definitely true, at least in terms of weight. As I understand it, at least one other company is producing G2 clones, and I think it would be great if the entire LFAR market gravitated that way in the coming future. But alas, I dream.

The GII is a good thing for hunters, but the reduced parts compatibility can be a headache. My personal LFAR’s are LR308 pattern rifles for that reason alone.

 

[someguy2800]

This is definitely true, at least in terms of weight. As I understand it, at least one other company is producing G2 clones, and I think it would be great if the entire LFAR market gravitated that way in the coming future. But alas, I dream.

The GII is a good thing for hunters, but the reduced parts compatibility can be a headache. My personal LFAR’s are LR308 pattern rifles for that reason alone.

I too am hoping that the aftermarket adopts the GII platform. I want one in 338 Federal. There are already a couple companies offering barrels so I guess I can have what I want if I was willing to pay for it.

 

[someguy2800]

I guess for that matter I could make one myself if I just bought a complete rifle and take the barrel extension off the factory barrel.

 

[someguy2800]

The ad I was sent was for a DPMS Oracle, and until then, I had never crossed paths with them. Appreciate the insight on Trinity. Based on the consensus so far on the advertised AR that I should look elsewhere.

They are are decent quality rifles on the same level as the other sub $500 AR15’s on the market.

I would suggest picking out a complete upper and lower from Pallmetto State Armory. They have tons of configurations and really good sales if you watch their website.

 

[d2wing]

That “change” happened long ago enough that it was already in place before DPMS really even made its name. Even 20 years ago, DPMS (Panther Arms) was held by the same folks who owned Bushmaster. Still are. Remington came into the picture over a decade ago, Freedom/Cerberus picked up the whole lump a long time ago, and has been trying to shuffle it around ever since. Bushmaster went after the ACR, the Windham guys broke off and started their own thing, and a thousand little AR boutiques cropped up, but when I hold a DPMS lower today beside one from 20yrs ago, I’m holding the same parts. During at least one period of time, you could nearly buy the same rifle, with a few modest tweaks, with any of the 3 labels - but at very different price points, commensurate with the relative prices of the upgrades (notwithstanding the actual value created in function by the $150-200 mark up for the Remington Camo coat).

There was a point in time where when I called Bushmaster to order 50 lowers, I could request in the same phone call to have some branded as DPMS and some as Bushmaster - even the supply chain logistics were intermingled - and that would have been ‘roundabouts 2002-4.

All that may be so, But the original DPMS factory and many suppliers were closed down a couple years ago. Where ever they are made now is no longer by the original DPMS.

 

[303 hunter]

My first DPMS was a 6.8 SPC upper I traded for in the equipment exchange back in 2012. It was a 2 moa gun with the factory hand guards. A swap to a free float tube made it under moa with handloads. I’ve spent a lot more on other uppers/barrels, but haven’t built another that was substantially better.

 

[jmorris]

Honestly, after reading everyone’s feedback, I’m more confused now than before I posted. Being unfamiliar with DPMS, I’ll probably just pick up another pre-assembled lower, bcg, upper, etc., and put together myself. I do appreciate the insight and feedback. Most interesting.

At that point, it really doesn’t matter who’s name is cut into the receiver, rather who’s parts you put in it that will make the difference. I have a number of DPMS receivers and they work just as good as any other.

 

[d2wing]

I’ve heard numerous times that Bushmaster started to suck when they were brought under the Remington umbrella. The reason being production was moved from the original Bushmaster production facility to a Remington facility-ala Marlin. When DPMS was purchased, Remington had learned their lesson, production stayed at the DPMS plant and DPMS was allowed to operate pretty much autonomously. As a result DPMS quality remained high.

After reading Varminterror’s post I believe what he wrote and now believe what I was told to be just another Internet legend.

That is not true. The original factory is closed. It was near where I live. Also some suppliers lost their contracts.

 

[cdb1]

That is not true. The original factory is closed. It was near where I live. Also some suppliers lost their contracts.

What isn’t true?

 

[Varminterror]

What isn’t true?

DPMS production didn’t stay at the original DPMS factory. It is fair to say, the move of DPMS to Huntsville went far better than the move of Marlin to Ilion, and as a result, there wasn’t the same era of poor manufacture DPMS’s as there were poor Marlins. Remington and DPMS, under the same ownership, had been making AR’s for a long time, so when they started moving AR production around, it was barely more than a blip on a supply chain chart, unlike the Marlin transition, which faced a complete retooling and up-training of new folks who had never seen a levergun line before - and of course, manufacturing leverguns is much more challenging, or in a manner of speaking, easier to screw up, than making AR’s.

I can appreciate that DPMS did lay off something like 75-100 folks at the St. Cloud site when it closed, and I’m sure several folks who had some tenure there were quite put out by the transition. Recalling, really, only a decade before that transition, their staff had been less than half of its size, and half again the decade before, so there really weren’t many folks affected, and not a lot of folks who had spent a life-long career there. I was staying a lot at that time in St. Cloud and Alex, working in Little Falls and Morris at the time, with my corporate head quarters in MSP. Some of the folks I met which had been with DPMS since they’d even moved to St. Cloud were actually closer to MSP than Saint - although, admittedly, driving OUT 94 in the morning is a lot easier than driving IN. Nobody likes losing their job, but there wasn’t a lot for DPMS/Freedom/Cerberus to move - a small house making a lot of parts and a lot of rifles.

 

[792mauser]

I'm reminded of my old Dpms. It is a reliable little thing. Light and quick handling. Gobbling up cheap Russian steel case ammo. It only stumbled when I shot brass after many magazines of steel before aka a filthy chamber. Old enough that she still has a A1 upper.

I quite literally beat that little carbine over the almost 2 decades of use. Had to replace the hand guards after a 308 ricochet smashed em and gouged the barrel, fired 1k of tracer through her, shot till the barrel was red, left on the bed of the truck and forgot about her and then proceeded to drag her about 1 mile by the sling caught on the ball hitch before I realized. Thousands of inert grenade and golf ball/soda can launches.

Stock/extension replaced after the sling broke and it tumbled into a wash breaking the release mechanism and most of the bottom of the stock (have a colt 6920 that did almost the exact same thing about 5 years ago, it just bounced and then javelin-ed into a dirt mound and filled the barrel about 6" with dirt and broke the toe off the stock. The aim point pro stayed on and still works but the lenses are scratched to hell. )

3-4 inch carbine then and still a 4 inch carbine now, just with a lot of wear and tear on her.

 

[cdb1]

DPMS production didn’t stay at the original DPMS factory. It is fair to say, the move of DPMS to Huntsville went far better than the move of Marlin to Ilion, and as a result, there wasn’t the same era of poor manufacture DPMS’s as there were poor Marlins. Remington and DPMS, under the same ownership, had been making AR’s for a long time, so when they started moving AR production around, it was barely more than a blip on a supply chain chart, unlike the Marlin transition, which faced a complete retooling and up-training of new folks who had never seen a levergun line before - and of course, manufacturing leverguns is much more challenging, or in a manner of speaking, easier to screw up, than making AR’s.

I can appreciate that DPMS did lay off something like 75-100 folks at the St. Cloud site when it closed, and I’m sure several folks who had some tenure there were quite put out by the transition. Recalling, really, only a decade before that transition, their staff had been less than half of its size, and half again the decade before, so there really weren’t many folks affected, and not a lot of folks who had spent a life-long career there. I was staying a lot at that time in St. Cloud and Alex, working in Little Falls and Morris at the time, with my corporate head quarters in MSP. Some of the folks I met which had been with DPMS since they’d even moved to St. Cloud were actually closer to MSP than Saint - although, admittedly, driving OUT 94 in the morning is a lot easier than driving IN. Nobody likes losing their job, but there wasn’t a lot for DPMS/Freedom/Cerberus to move - a small house making a lot of parts and a lot of rifles.

Got it, thanks.

 

[Gary W. Strange]

I bought a DPMS several years ago. I have done a few upgrades on it. Pistol grip, hand guard, trigger and a bit internal. I never really cared for AR type rifles and bought this one after a mass shooting because of the talk of bans. I do enjoy shooting it. ARs are fun to shoot. It has been a good, reliable gun. It is as well made as others I have handled. I am far from an AR expert. My DPMS is an older model, so I can’t speak for the newer models. I would say, as with any AR, one can buy upgrade parts and make it to their liking. A base model, to start with, then add upgrade parts when you want to get more advanced, I have never had any problems with mine and it is one of the firearms, the grandkids always wants to shoot when I carry them shooting. It has had at least 3000 rounds through it. Sure there are better brands but DPMS are a good value. The older ones anyway.

 

[Choctaw]

You'd be wrong about that assumption.

I'm aware that DPMS makes target/benchrest type rifles, but I'd bet for every 24" target rifle they sell, DPMS moves 10 to 20 Oracles and Sporticals on blowout deals at Academy and Cabelas. That's their stock in trade right now. And there's no way I'm can call a gun company that can't even put heat shields inside a fat M4 handguard anything but plinker grade.

Who cares? Most of us aren't going to war. My son's DPMS rifle kills hogs just as dead as my Colt. His DPMS gets plenty of field use (we don't plink at ranges) and is filthy most of the time from riding on the Mule. It shoots every time the trigger is pulled. Every time.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

Who cares? Most of us aren't going to war. My son's DPMS rifle kills hogs just as dead as my Colt. His DPMS gets plenty of field use (we don't plink at ranges) and is filthy most of the time from riding on the Mule. It shoots every time the trigger is pulled. Every time.

The gist of is isn't that you need to buy a Cadillac, it's that you don't pay Cadillac prices when you're buying a Honda. I've seen a couple new AR owners stumble into that with sellers who convinced them the DPMSs and Andersons they were pushing were hot stuff.

 

[Varminterror]

I can say I have met far more people who over-paid for DD, Colt, Larue, BCM, FN, etc rifles which never did anything a DPMS couldn’t or hadn’t than I have met in people who have paid too much for a DPMS, Anderson, or PSA vs. market value.

Fools exist, as do slick salesmen, but it’s very simple for folks to figure out what things are worth these days.

If some dipstick 20yr old kid gets tricked out of $1,000 because he believes a line someone fed him, then good for the guy selling it. I have a couple old pick-ups I’d sell the kid too, make him a great deal, $100 less than he’d see on a dealer sticker...

 

[Nature Boy]

I'm reminded of my old Dpms. It is a reliable little thing. Light and quick handling. Gobbling up cheap Russian steel case ammo. It only stumbled when I shot brass after many magazines of steel before aka a filthy chamber. Old enough that she still has a A1 upper.

I quite literally beat that little carbine over the almost 2 decades of use. Had to replace the hand guards after a 308 ricochet smashed em and gouged the barrel, fired 1k of tracer through her, shot till the barrel was red, left on the bed of the truck and forgot about her and then proceeded to drag her about 1 mile by the sling caught on the ball hitch before I realized. Thousands of inert grenade and golf ball/soda can launches.

Stock/extension replaced after the sling broke and it tumbled into a wash breaking the release mechanism and most of the bottom of the stock (have a colt 6920 that did almost the exact same thing about 5 years ago, it just bounced and then javelin-ed into a dirt mound and filled the barrel about 6" with dirt and broke the toe off the stock. The aim point pro stayed on and still works but the lenses are scratched to hell. )

3-4 inch carbine then and still a 4 inch carbine now, just with a lot of wear and tear on her.

As my dad would say, "Son, this is why you can't have nice things"