[Dtiquips] LAPD going all-slug

[Dave Williams]

This is the latest quip from John Farnam of Defense Training International (DTI). Evidently LAPD decided to ditch buckshot completely.

Any of you have LAPD contacts that can comment on this decision? Any of you have any thoughts?

Have a good 4th.

Dave Williams




"3 July 04

Taking the lead from the Burbank PD, LAPD is eliminating buckshot from
their
inventory and going to an all-slug shotgun program. This has been under
consideration for some time, but the move is finally being made now. Of
course,
only low-recoil slugs will be issued.

We might call this a trend among American police departments, although
buckshot is still thoroughly entrenched in many places. I find
low-recoil slugs
wimpy, and I would rather see the recoil issue addressed by issuing
small-statured officers 20ga shotguns, but, in big departments, that is a
logistical
challenge many don't want to tackle.

/John"

 

[crucible]

Seems to be an absurd way of equipping themselves with smoothbore rifles-which is what they are when there's only slugs that can be used.

Cruc

 

[Gordon]

Huh, coming to MY conclusions! You want "sure stop" on a human; the 12ga slug is THE answer. And you can place it on the proper part of the body -easily to 25yards.

 

[MrMurphy]

With the proper sights, reduced recoil slugs make hits at 100 yards easily. I've done headshots on demand from the prone with my Benelli Nova SP and ghost rings using Remington RR slugs at 100 yards. Body shots are ridiculously easy.

 

[Badger Arms]

Isn't the LAPD still using the Ithaca? Are they going to order a bunch of slug barrels for them or are they going to just used rifled slugs? Can't imagine the hit probability with bead sights is good.

 

[444]

There was a guy from LAPD in my Gunsite 260 class.
He told me that in order to carry slugs in their shotguns, they had to take a fairly extensive class which according to him had the highest failure rate of any class put on by the LAPD.
This was last February (I think).
Now assuming he was telling the truth (and I have no reason to doubt him), this would be a huge turn of events. To go from making it extremly difficult to get "certified" to carry slugs, to going to slugs exclusively.

Also according to him, they use 870s.

 

[Dave Williams]

thanks for the replies

444,

I had a LAPD guy in my rifle class at Front Sight. A real warrior, who you'd want with you in a fight. HE had failed the 5-day slug shooting shotgun course with LAPD, which has IIRC a 53% failure rate, which is astronomical.

He described the course as an endurance test of slug shooting.

His dept issue gun had Remington rifle sights that would not stay tightened no matter what. Many students bought/brought personal new Remington rifle sighted barrels and retrofitted them to dept guns in order to pass the course.

Dave Williams

 

[Dave Williams]

Gordon,

Even the slug is not a sure stop. If you peruse the quips on Farnam's web site, www.defense-training.com, you'll find a shooting incident where slugs weren't fight stoppers. Placement is the key, even with slugs.

Dave Williams

 

[444]

"Many students bought/brought personal new Remington rifle sighted barrels and retrofitted them to dept guns in order to pass the course."

This guy carried his own personal 870 on duty and took the class with his own gun. The reason he bought and carried his own gun was simply because he KNEW that it was zeroed by him and it was maintained by him. He passed the LAPD slug course, but I smoked him in the man on man shoot off

 

[Gordon]

As I'm sure you know 444 a bead sight will get you good and very fast slug hits to 25-30yds. pretty much always,if you do your part. Anything over this range and the SOP is seek cover and get rifle back up! In fact most use will be inside of 15 yards. The new low recoil slugs cut out alot of the complaints about recoil, having a 40% percieved reduction, which make hitting even easier. Fer sure nuttin is 100% except eventual death(you can get around the taxes) , but well placed 73caliber flat lead projectiles are right up there on humans for stopping power.

 

[444]

Disclaimer: I am not a LEO and have never been one. But, from what I have been told by police officers and shotgun instructors is that one big problem with police shotguns is that you don't get the same one every day. I am sure this is more of an issue with a bigger department. Obviously this means that even if you have fired A shotgun with slugs and know it is zeroed and know the trajectory etc., you very well might go on duty with a different shotgun next shift. Same goes for bead sighted shotguns. You might take one out, see where it hits with the bead and your cheekweld and then never see that particular shotgun again. This is also an issue with buckshot patterns.
So, according to these guys there are two options. One is to buy your own shotgun that you are familiar with, or, pattern the shotgun with buck and zero the sights with slug and tape a piece of paper with the nessessary information on the stock. At Gunsite, they gave us preprinted cards for this information.
Again, there is another option which is taken by most people and that is to never use a shotgun at all.

 

[Dave Williams]

"So, according to these guys there are two options. One is to buy your own shotgun that you are familiar with, or, pattern the shotgun with buck and zero the sights with slug and tape a piece of paper with the nessessary information on the stock. At Gunsite, they gave us preprinted cards for this information.
Again, there is another option which is taken by most people and that is to never use a shotgun at all."

A fourth option is to just go with what you have. I intend to utilize the issue shotgun. Using my personal gun isn't an option.

I have no idea where the particular 870 I get each shift shoots with buck or slugs, but I have 6rds of WW 00 buck in the tube, and 3 WW slugs on my belt(some guns have a 4rd Speedfeed stock). Some guns have rifle sights, some have beads. I have no idea why the shotguns can't all be the same. I'll do the best I can with what I have. I realize alot of officers won't even consider using the shotgun, and for a variety of reasons.

Most officers don't even check their shotgun's condition at the beginning of a shift. I've had guns with 5 rds in the tube, safety on, action locked, a rd chambered in the rack, or a combination of the above. I even found a shotgun in the trunk of a cruiser, round chambered safety on one time after a standoff. SOP where I work is supposed to be 6rds in the tube, condition 3, safety off. You really have to look out for yourself.

Re carrying all slugs, I used to because I was frustrated that the guns weren't patterned, ESPECIALLY after talking to a Gunsite trained instructor from Anchorage PD who was shocked our guns weren't patterned.

Now I just follow the SOP, and I plan to slug select at anything approaching long distance or when anticipating shooting into a car.

I guess carrying slugs only would simplify things.

Dave Williams

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Taking the lead from the Burbank PD, LAPD is eliminating buckshot from
their inventory and going to an all-slug shotgun program.

And the reason for this is...

- pdmoderator

 

[Dave McCracken]

My guess is that this switch is based on reasons having more to do with litigation than tactics.

As a former firearms instructor who had to teach non shotgunners to use a
shotgun safely and effectively, the idea of teaching lots of non shotgunners how to shoot slugs fills me with trepidation.

Even the R/R slugs out of a 7 lb 870 pack a fair amount of kick. It's less than full bore loads, but to a non shotgunner it's still stiff. Couple that with bad form and fit, trouble ahead.

 

[Coronach]

Hmmm.

IF they go all-slug, they should issue shotguns to individual officers. I recently took 3 of my precinct shotguns to the range to have them checked out by the armorer, and I was asked if I wanted to burn up the on-board ammo so I could return to the precinct with fresh rounds. Sure, says I, and I go out to convert some of the city's money into noise.

The differences in POI for the slugs from gun to gun was disconcerting. I always knew from my reading that this was the case, but this was the first time I ever saw it visually, using identical ammo and identical guns.

That difference alone is reason enough...add in the fact that if you're going all-slug you should probably have a proper rifle-style sight...which should be sighted in...

Mike

 

[Badger Arms]

As many LAPD Cops as there are, you'd think one of them would be on this board and chime in. Sad that Cops aren't gun people anymore.

 

[Spinner]

Now sm!! Have you been advising the LAPD again??? You know what I told you about that last time!!

Spinner

 

[c_yeager]

That kinda seems to eliminate some of the nice advantages of the shotgun. Why not just issue a rifle with frangible ammunition or something? That way you get the same advantage with slugs but with higher capacity, better sights, quicker reloads, etc.

The only possible reason for switching to all slugs is to prevent possible injuries resulting from a spread of buckshot striking bystanders. But, really i think the increased penetration of the shotgun slug will largely negate this (a slug shoots through a LOT of interior walls).

 

[Gordon]

I'm all for issueing a rifle with frangible ammo, just as long as it is at least .70 "

 

[Average Guy]

OK, I just got off the phone, so here it is second--uh, thirdhand: My source has "heard about it in roll call," and that's about all the info that stuck. Considering that it's LAPD, and therefore a huge bureaucracy, and therefore a slow-moving behemoth, and the magic words were invoked ("It has to get approved"), AND the current approved list of on/off-duty weapons STILL looks like something out of Mayberry RFD, I don't expect this to happen anytime soon. YMMV

 

[sm]

I am a civilian . I have not had the formal training as many of you have had. I did not serve in Vietnam - they brought the troops home the fall before I graduated from HS. I stayed civilian to raise 3 sibs, take care of mom - the daddy had decided to live another life.

I have worked with LEO and similar. I am only 49 , but I can see a lot of folks are not being raised around guns as I was.

I have a lot of respect for LEO,I have worked with the LEO community.

I am apalled, at the ability of some LEO to shoot, maintain a firearm, do any training. In any business or profession there a few bad representatives.

I have officers " I need some help - re -quals are coming up..."

Well, the ammo in the Duty shotgun was corroded in chamber, it fired , extractor pulled a chunk out of brass. You don' t want to know about handguns.

These folks did not want to train, maintain a firearm. I retrieved on from the rack of the unmarked car - rusty, round in chamber, safety off.

I know from expereince no two guns will behave the same way with ammo, I can imagine a different gun each day one would never know.

Now I happen to like the idea of slugs only, I have used these as my loading for HD - and I'm a civilian.

I can see especially for the rural LEO not knowing what to expect , or when backup will arrive, needing to shoot from contact to 50 yds and beyond. Slugs give that versatility.

Some are not issued rifles.

Personally - I feel each officer should be given the monies to buy their own weapon, maintain it, carry always, and given the monies ,ammo . time and training to become proffiecient.

As a civilian having taught folks to shoot - be it civilan for hunting, clay games or assisting LEO - I "think" the Ashley sight system would work best across the board. I know others will disagree. I know training / practice is the key.

The reality is we have LEO depts that do not promote, make available, or support this. WE have a lot of LEO that flat don't like guns, shooting or maintaing any more than is required.

Heck - 12 LEOs with 870s sighted in with AO systems with slugs that shoot POA/POI , given the break on price for ammo to practice - even allowed a freindly competeition amongst selves ---well makes a LOT of sense to me.

In AR as a civilian I doubt I will ever have the need to shoot the windhield of a vehicle. I have tested Trans ams, 300 Z and the like. Gimmee a slug, that buckshot did not cut it.

If pinned down and waiting for the calvary, no rifle and I need to make a 50 yd shot....gimmee slugs.

In a warehouse and the perp is partially behind a pallet, and shooting up the place and folks are going down...gimme a slug.

Yes I happen to like Slugs.

 

[grendelbane]

I keep seeing remarks about reduced recoil slugs. Seems to me 20 gauge slugs would perform well compared to reduced recoil 12 gauge slugs.

Not much work has gone into developing serious social loads for the 20 gauge. Seems like there is a lot of area for exploration here.