Dummy rounds! and questions.

[WinchesterAA]

Hello!

I managed to find a company called precision reloading that had a lee classic loader in .308 in stock. They shipped Thursday and it arrived today, so I got familiar with the bullet seating process and got my die set in about 20 minutes.

I was able to seat a bullet in my modified case COAL gauge to 2.800" +/- .006" with the 180 grain SGK bullets and 2.81 something inches (better notetaking starts tomorrow) with the 200 grain SMK, both of which fit in the magazine comfortably.

I figured that was good enough for day 1 and made 5 dummy cartridges out of some berdan primed brass I had laying around and the 180 grain SGKs. I forgot to measure the case OAL before doing this, and I have a problem that I think may be related to a case that is too long.


4 out of 5 cartridges can be cycled with just a little bit of force (pretty normal, actually. Maybe just a tiny bit more force than for some of the milsurp rounds I've shot. After cycling, the COAL was the same as before cycling). 1 of the cartridges cannot be cycled at all.

The measurements from various points of case mouth to case head for the 4 that work are between 2.005" and 2.007".

The measurements from various points of case mouth to case head on the cartridge that won't cycle are 2.015" to 2.016".

I did not see any marring on the case or bullet, but I did measure the diameter of the case mouth, shoulder, and body and found that the dimensions are all less than on the other 4.

The only dimension that is greater than the other 4 is the case OAL.

Am I correct in thinking that a case OAL of 2.01~ is capable of preventing the bolt from being able to close?


Also, my COAL tolerance now seems to be around .006". Is that good, and what should I aim for?

 

[blarby]

Its entirely possible that small amount could prevent closure on a tight chamber.

Its also possible the brass is otherwise distorted- I would try and size it first. Since they are berdan primed, and dummy rounds, I'd honestly say you just found the maximum brass case length for your rifles' chamber- and call it good at that !

After full length sizing, or heck even just firing, cases have a tendency to stretch...this is why we use case trimmers to get them back to the correct length. It would seem that yours should be no longer than 2.007 or 2.008. You could probably find a bunch and narrow it down to the exact number, if you chose to do so.

COAL can vary slightly based on differences in the bullets- they seat by the ogive, which can vary in lots of bullets made on different machinery.

Given the tools that you are using, 6 thousandths of an inch is pretty good- and shouldn't effect much of anything at all. If they fit in your magazine, I'd call it good.

When and if you get into trying to seat bullets at depths different than the standard 2.800 for laser beam accuracy, that might be an issue. For your application, I seriously doubt you'd notice the difference at all. As long as they function, you are fine.

 

[WinchesterAA]

I've already discovered that I can't safely seat a bullet to the lands of my rifle because the lands are somewhere around 3" (I've got it written down in a notebook somewhere), and I think (also in the notebook) that my magazine supports a maximum of 2.87" COAL from tip of bullet to case head. I'm not sure how much of an effect 5 thousandths has on things just yet, but approaching the lands isn't looking like a fruitful goal at this point.

I also measured the OAL from the ogive to the head. 2 rounds were 2.214" and 3 were 2.217". I think a lot of the discrepancy between the rounds comes from the way the lee loader assortment fits together. There's a little play between the shell holder and the die and a little canting could be responsible for 3 thousandths of a difference. Not 100% on that, but it is day one after all.

I don't have a case trimmer yet, but I may be able to make one, or at least buy one. Also a meplat trimmer.

I'm going to try out a ladder test in a couple of weeks with the 2.800" COAL and see what happens. Hopefully I can find something the rifle likes.

Honestly, I settled on 2.800" because I was guesstimating where to adjust the collar of the die to, and got 2.81" right off the bat, and then another adjustment got me to 2.800". The rest of the time I was fiddling with it was to find the magic way to tighten the lock nut on the stop collar to lock it in place at 2.800".

 

[blarby]

Well, 2.800 is pretty standard for .308- and thats where the cannelures are on most bullets.

As for play in the lee equipment- that wouldn't surprise me in the least either.

A case trimmer can be very cheaply obtained from lee, even if you just use this one without a drill and put it in any standard bit accepting screwdriver :

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/476992/lee-case-trimmer-cutter-and-lock-stud

You can get the caliber appropriate trim pilot and locknut for any caliber for less than $5- its probably one of the most tool effective, and cost effective, units that lee makes.

As for a meplat trimmer... Thats probably not necessary until you get into the area where that seating to the lands bit is gonna come into play.

If you just have ugly softpoints, try this :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=665222&highlight=tip

 

[WinchesterAA]

Pencil sharpener... Haven't used one of those in a long time =)

Thanks for the information, Blarby.

 

[david_r]

There's a little play between the shell holder and the die and a little canting could be responsible for 3 thousandths of a difference. Not 100% on that, but it is day one after all.

What specifically is this play? All presses have play at the shell holder, else you wouldn't be able to take the shell holder out. But when the ram is raised, the friction between the die and the shell force the holder down onto the top of the ram. On sizing, the neck expander pulls up on the cartridge as the ram is lowered. However, the expander only needs to be pulled out of the neck and any looseness at the shell holder should not impact length of the shell.

How are you measuring COL? If it is to the tip of the bullet, measure the length of several bullets out of the box and see if they don't vary by a few thousandths.

2.015 is maximum shell length for 308 per SAAMI. 2.025 -0 should be the minimum depth on the chamber at the mouth for any factory rifle so your 2.017 cases shouldn't be hitting at the mouth but odder things have happened.

You could try smoking your dummy with a candle and seeing where it is rubbing. Or you could resize shells with the shoulder further back until they chamber. You will have to keep resizing a shell a little at a time until you can close the bolt on it. More than likely the die won't be touching the shell holder when you find the spot where the shoulder is pushed far enough back to fit your chamber. That gap is perfect for sticking some feeler gauges in so that you can put your die back in later and get to the same head space.

 

[david_r]

I realized you might be talking about a Lee Loader, not a press. Were all of those cases fired from the same bolt action you are reloading for now? The Lee Loader only resizes the neck so you have to use brass fired from the same gun.

 

[fguffey]

#1
WinchesterAA
Member



Join Date: March 9, 2006
Posts: 832 Dummy rounds! and questions.

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I figured that was good enough for day 1 and made 5 dummy cartridges out of some berdan primed brass I had laying around and the 180 grain SGKs. I forgot to measure the case OAL before doing this, and I have a problem that I think may be related to a case that is too long.

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I figure you are talking about OAL as in case overall length, sometimes used in conjunction with the word ‘maximum’ as it applies to the magazine, then there is ‘off the lands’, O do not use dummy rounds, I use transfers and standards.

Then there is the other length, that would be the distance from the shoulder/datum back to the head of the case.

“The measurements from various points of case mouth to case head for the 4 that work are between 2.005" and 2.007".

The measurements from various points of case mouth to case head on the cartridge that won't cycle are 2.015" to 2.016"

The measurements above rule out the possibility you are measuring cases for the effect the case has on off setting the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

 

[WinchesterAA]

Not sure I follow what you're saying.

The dummy rounds/snap caps were for pleasure/verifying my bullet seating depth/getting familiar with the lee classic loader. The snap caps I've seen in stores run around $9 for 3, but I made 5 for less than 2 dollars. It just turned out that I couldn't close the bolt on one, and the only dimension I found on the non-functional one which exceeded the corresponding dimension on the other 4 rounds was the length measured from the rear (head?) of the case to the front face of the mouth of the case (the part which gets trimmed by a case trimmer).

Per the SAAMI specs for .308 Winchester (Ref pg 66, PDF page 72), the minimum length of that dimension is 2.025" for the chamber with a tolerance of +0.015" (I assume that to mean 2.025" to 2.04")

If, however, you subtract 0.015" from the maximum, you arrive at 2.01" which the malfunctioning dummy round exceeds.

For the case itself, the maximum is 2.015" with a tolerance of -0.020". The malfunctioning case exceeds this.


@David_R
It's the lee classic loader. The play is between the shell holder and case holder, it feels like you can rock it back and forth some few thousandths of an inch. Not much play, but it's there.

 

[david_r]

Winchester,
I think you should look back at that chamber spec. There is no -0.015 tolerance. The minimum it can be cut and be SAAMI is 2.025". I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it shouldn't and isn't correct if it did.

 

[blarby]

Winchester- your explanation is correct from what I can tell- and your logic and explanation follows.

I'd say again that that case would be a good "no-go" measurement for your rifles' chamber. You could trim a bunch .001 larger or smaler to find the exact "no-go" length if you so choose- but I dont think its necessary.

The lee trimmer will put you at or right under the SAAMI Trim to length... mine in .308 cuts the cases to 2.010

I would recommend FL sizing some brass, and trying with those. You may need to trim them, you may not... but you are going to need to start from a correct beginning point to make any further useful deductions that you already have.

 

[WinchesterAA]

I don't have a full length sizer, or know anybody that does. In theory I could drill and tap a 7/8-14 hole about an inch deep or so in my desk and mount the die in backwards and use my arbor press to push the case in, but my original idea was to do some good with the lee classic loader and get a good single stage press sometime down the road when I know exactly what I'll want, and in the meantime, piece together a more precise toolkit than stuff I make with a drill press/hand drills/dremels/bench grinders/etc. I really ought to get a lathe...

The thing with my bucket of berdan primed brass is that it's been shot out of several different guns. My good brass that I shot through the bolt gun I'm loading for is kept together, separately. I just didn't want to damage any of them while learning the lee tool, so my first seated bullets went into brass I didn't care as much about.

Thanks for taking a look at my situation though, blarby. I ordered that trimmer you linked to earlier today, along with a chamfer/deburring tool from LE Wilson because it'll fit in the drill press chuck, and maybe the 18v hand drill.


I found a pound of benchmark, and per hodgdon's data it looks like for a 180 grain bullet the ladder I'll be running is:
Cartridge: 308 Winchester
Load Type: Rifle

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
180 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon Benchmark .308" 2.800" 38.0 2363 40,700 CUP 41.3 2542 50,800 CUP

Grain steps:
38.0
38.3
38.6
38.9
39.2
39.5
39.8
40.1
40.4
40.7
41.0

 

[PhotoBiker]

I would recommend FL sizing some brass, and trying with those. You may need to trim them, you may not... but you are going to need to start from a correct beginning point to make any further useful deductions that you already have.

Most likely this.

I bet it is sizing too. Can you chamber the empty case?

 

[blarby]

That ladder looks good to me.

Personally, I don't use benchmark... for .308 I use 4895 or RL15- so I cant offer a lot of advice on the benchmark powder.

Honestly, I'd consider even a lee single stage press before I considered a lathe

You sound handy with tools, and you can use a caliper- which is a fantastic start.

Dont get too hung up trying to get exact 2.800 coal ammunition with the tools that you have- you will go absolutely bfnuts. If you are getting it in the tolerances you listed here- you are just fine.

Sooner rather than later you are going to need a FL sizer die.

Even brass I fire in my bolt .308 sometimes needs a little tamping here and there- about one out of every 30 pieces or so. Sometimes on the milder loads, it wont "blow out" brass to full chamber dimensions- and it gets distorted in other ways.

After I Fire a piece of brass in my bolt action 2 or 3 times, they are usually set for neck sizing only... but you will need the FL die- believe me.

I'm not completely familiar with the loader you are using- how exactly does it resize the neck ? Pictures I find on google are less than stellar.

 

[WinchesterAA]

Yeah, I'm not a machinist, nor do I play one on TV, but I can still manage to make some useful things every now and then.

For example, I bought a savage mk2 22LR for 100$. The seller said it didn't work anymore, and when I asked why, he said it wouldn't fire any rounds. I figured firing pin was broken, but it turned out that (probably due to repeated dry firing) it was too small to sufficiently dent the primer. It would just barely make contact in most cases. I made a new firing pin out of a dewalt reciprocating saw blade and haven't had any problems with decent ammo.

The lee classic loader is a hammer-driven operation. You hit a decapping rod with a hammer to deprime the case, you hit the case head with a hammer to ram it into the sizing die, you shove a rod in the case and hit it with a hammer to seat the primer, you don't need a hammer for charging the case, but you do need one for seating the bullet.

The sizing process is done by ramming the case into a tapered section on the inside of the die. I think that's the way all the sizing dies work.

After sizing, the case mouth OD is .333" and the ID is .301". The decapping rod is tapered and can probably be used to expand the neck to ~.307", but I tried that and bulged the case neck at the shoulder.


After checking the situation again with the smoking technique I was confused because the case neck, shoulder, and bullet were only scuffed where they made contact when I inserted them into the chamber. I smoked the web of the case and saw two points on opposite sides which had been scuffed and were somewhere around 1/4" away from the taper on the case head. That's also about how far away the bolt was from being in a position to close.

 

[blarby]

HAmmers and ammo- well, so be it !

If you can cut a firing pin out of a recip blade, thats good enough in my book.

The other 94% of the world says "its broke, dont work no mo "


Honestly I'd let the case that doesn't fit go, and try and size and load five cartridges at a nominal charge, and go from there.

It sounds like a fairly rough sizing process. Without lube and and a central power point for pushing the case into the die, I dont see how case sizing could happen with any repeated accuracy anyway.

Heck- you are essentially making cartridges with a hammer- good for you.

 

[WinchesterAA]

I haven't found the guy's name, but when researching the loader I kept coming across stories of some guy that, in the early 90's, repeatedly won 1000 yard competitions with a loader like this.

 

[Reloadron]

I haven't found the guy's name, but when researching the loader I kept coming across stories of some guy that, in the early 90's, repeatedly won 1000 yard competitions with a loader like this.

I believe, and I may be off target, the shooter was David Tubb. Just not real sure about that.

For what it may, or may not be worth, below are the case and chamber dimensions for a .308 Winchester cartridge.



As can be seen the Maximum Cartridge Overall Length is 2.015" with a minus tolerance of .020". Most of my loading manuals call out a COL of 2.005" or about .010" under the maximum. Right in the middle between 1.995" (the minimum) and 2.015" (the maximum).

When I have made dummy rounds I generally trim the cases to a COL of 2.005" just to make them a little more forgiving in most rifles chambered in .308 Winchester. That after full length sizing. For actual loading, for my rifles, when I do full length sizing I like the 2.010" number.

After sizing, the case mouth OD is .333" and the ID is .301". The decapping rod is tapered and can probably be used to expand the neck to ~.307", but I tried that and bulged the case neck at the shoulder.

After FL sizing I generally end up with a case neck OD of about 0.314" and a case neck ID of about 0.280 which really matters not very much as the bullet has yet to be seated. After seating they are more like about 0.335" OD.

I started making some .223 and .308 dummy rounds last year and still have 20 pieces of brass (10 EA.) waiting to be finished. I guess I should get to finishing them. Since they are 100% useless as they are.

Ron

 

[FROGO207]

If the round that you used was NOT fired from your rifle that is the problem most likely. The Lee loader neck sizes only and if the empty casing would not fit in the rifle before sizing it probably still will not fit after neck sizing. FWIW the casings need to be sized smaller (shoulder set back a bit) after several firings anyway or they will be too long to fit the chamber whether you trim the total length or not. A standard type of press--even a Lee handheld press, and dies to be able to full length size bottle necked rounds are needed items in every reloaders tool lineup IMHO. The Lee loader is GREAT for straight walled pistol brass nothing beats it for loading a 38 SPL round for cheap but it has it's limits for reloading bottle necked brass cartridges..

 

[blarby]

As I suspected- thanks for the fill-in , FROGO

 

[fguffey]

#12
WinchesterAA
Member



Join Date: March 9, 2006
Posts: 836 I don't have a full length sizer, or know anybody that does. In theory I could drill and tap a 7/8-14 hole about an inch deep or so in my desk and mount the die in backwards and use my arbor press to push the case in, but my original idea was to do some good with the lee classic loader and get a good single stage press sometime down the road when I know exactly what I'll want, and in the meantime, piece together a more precise toolkit than stuff I make with a drill press/hand drills/dremels/bench grinders/etc. I really ought to get a lathe...


“......the die in backwards and use my arbor press to push the case in” I have arbor presses, with my arbor presses there is no such thing as a case whipping my press, the arbor press wins ever time. Drill and tap a plate, something like a plate used in a press with the 7/8”x14 threads, clamp it down then look up inside the arbor, my arbors have a 1/2” hole designed to hold tools, (how convent?), C&H4D, Hollywood Gun shop, etc., etc., used shell holder with 1/2” shanks for mounting shell holders with various and different applications.

Using the arbor press for reloading, there is no advantage, except, height, and room, lots of room, when using the arbor press never forget to lube the cases. I have used the arbor press for pressing cases into the chamber of a barrel, carefully.



F. Guffey