Early 20th century caliber wars

[Dr.Rob]

"This energy may vary to a considerable extent, but its minimum should be sufficient to disable the enemy, that is, to render further fighting impossible on the part of the opposing soldier who is in full service uniform, protacted by all sorts of equipment such as belts, cartridge pouch, buckles, metal buttons, fur coat, breast plate & perhaps under the additional cover of planks or brush-wood, or behind a closed door."

"The smaller caliber has more penetrating effect, the larger the more spreading or stopping power."

(Source: British translation of WW1 era Luger manual, comparing 30 luger vs 9mm para) Luger 9mm Parabellum Automatic Pistol manual, Deutshe Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, Berlin.

Sounds like the old 45/9mm debate all over again.. and yet smoothed over.. as both will take out a man, as described above.

 

[Nightcrawler]

And yet many today wouldn't rely on 9mm FMJ for self defense, let alone .30 Luger.

Amazing how our perceptions change.

 

[c_yeager]

Maybe thats why the brittish used .455 webleys?

With the above exception though it seems that europe has always been fond of what we would consider really small calliber pistols. I wonder why that is?

Its also interesting to see that the arguments havent been changed or been supported by much more real data over the last hundred years. All of our geletin tests, and "ammo-expert" opinions, and we are still pretty much in the same argument as before.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Remember, though, that the militaries of the world at that time were laboring under the provisions of the Hague Accords, which mandated jacketed ammo.

One reason why German WW I-era 9mm ammo was truncated cone flat point.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Yeah, but we didn't get JHP ammo that worked well until the 1980s, if I'm not mistaken. FMJ was about all they had, and yet there don't seem to be as many reports from the period about not having enough stopping power (the Moros are a notable exception).

So what's different now? People haven't gotten any more durable. Have perceptions just changed, or are we really better shooters now?

 

[Dr.Rob]

Well the point is.. if it can penetrate his coat/leather belts and metal buckles and buttons.. it will do the job.


Wonder what Colt/SW/etc say about their handguns in this period re: 'stopping power'?

 

[CMcDermott]

Remember the medicine of the era also - no antibiotics, tetenus shots or blood transfusions. Getting hit anywhere by anything could cause a fatal wound if it got infected. Proper use of a tourniquette(sp?) was still unknown, and could cause you to lose a limb as much as it's use would save you from bleeding to death.
Yes, stopping power was probably a concern, but a much bigger concern was keeping your skin whole and in 1 piece - literally.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Yeah, but we didn't get JHP ammo that worked well until the 1980s, if I'm not mistaken. FMJ was about all they had, and yet there don't seem to be as many reports from the period about not having enough stopping power (the Moros are a notable exception)."

Not true.

Lead hollow point bullets were well known as far back as the 1880s. The Hoxie bullet was a lead hollowpoint that could be made even more interesting by inserting a .22 caliber blank in the tip.

There are many reports from the period of the British encountering native folk, including the Dinka and Dervishes in the Sudan, who just didn't want to go down after being hit with even a large caliber bullet.

Ever hear of the Webley "Manstopper" round? Essentially a combination of a wadcutter with an ENORMOUS hollowpoint. Developed expressly to deal with the Dervishes, who got drugged up before heading into combat.

The Dum Dum bullet? Another British innovation designed to deal with pissed-off natives who wouldn't die.

 

[mete]

European concepts of handguns were very different. It was more of a badge of rank than anything else. Then it was treated as a carbine , have you seen a BHP or others with a sight calibrated to 200 yds ? The lessons learned in Africa and other places in the Empire were thought to be applicable only on the natives and not europeans thus the brits were very slow to use the machine gun in WWI. After all they went back to the 38 and 9mm after some use of the 455.

 

[Sean Smith]

Incidentally, the .38 caliber Webley that was introduced after the .455s originally had a very soft non-hollowpoint 200gr bullet that supposedly could produce quite nasty effects (sort of "squish & tumble about" deal), but was replaced with a 150gr jacketed bullet that was famously ineffective.

IIRC the .455 Manstopper looked basically like a hollow-base wadcuter loaded backwards... sort of a flying lead shot glass.

 

[Mike Irwin]

If I have time tonight, I'll photograph the Webley Manstopper I've got in my collection.

It's a reproduction, done by an old friend of mine, but made to the same specifications as the original.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, so who here would pick .30 Luger over 9x19mm?

 

[Mike Irwin]

"who would pick a .30 Luger over a 9x19..."

Winston Churchill did...

He also picked it over a .455 Webley...

 

[Nightcrawler]

I thought Churchill preferred the Mauser in 7.63x25mm?

*shrug* .30 cal pistol bullet just the same. As long as it'll penetrate the frontal plate of the skull, it'll do the job as a service arm. Bigger bullets just give you more room for error.

 

[Jim K]

Churchill wrote about using the Mauser pistol (what we call the C96 or "broomhandle"), but he could not have used a Luger in that period (1899) in South Africa, because it would not have been available.

Jim

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

1911 was kind of an important year. Phillipines. .38s. Human waves. Need to stop them. .45 acp.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I thought Churchill preferred the Mauser in 7.63x25mm?"

Oops...

Oh scrumblebunt.

But, in the grand scheme of things, not really much difference between the two rounds. Both overpenetrated to hell and back...

 

[Oracle]

If I have time tonight, I'll photograph the Webley Manstopper I've got in my collection.

That would be fantastic. I've long wanted a mold for this bullet that would work for a .45 Colt.

 

[Dr.Rob]

The .45 acp was developed in 1905, the 1911 was the first Military accepted 45 cal auto loader.

The 45's sent to the Phillipines were SAA's and 1878 DA models in 45 Colt.

 

[Jim K]

Contrary to what has been written repeatedly, the Philippines experience did not lead directly to adoption of the .45 Model 1911. It led first to reissue of the Model 1873 SAA, then to purchase of 4600 Colt Model 1902 revolvers (the Model 1878 in .45 caliber), and then to the adoption of the Model 1909 revolver. But it did cause the army to specify that any semi-auto pistol adopted had to be in .45 caliber.

Jim