Early 32-20 S&W pistol ammo reloading with black powder

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Back then when common sense prevailed they could box ammo for specific applications and life went on. Any commercial 32-20 ammo I've shot was pretty weak and I'm sure because ammo manufactures today no longer assume common sense prevails.

Yeah, any "modern" 32-20 ammo you're going to buy in a box store today is going to be safe in those older guns. Interestingly enough, the 32-20 would be all but dead or totally dead (out of production by Win and Rem) if it weren't for Cowboy Action Shooting. HSM makes a pretty good version in their "Cowboy Loads" and there are one or two other boutique type ammo makers still churning out commercial 32-20 of good quality.
 
Another interesting thing probably worth pointing out. When saying vintage if you consider "the day" being close to 20 some odd years after the cartridge was invented. Actually when the cartridge was invented no there was no difference because they were all black powder until close to the turn of the century.

The "rifle" marked ammo came along after the turn of the century and as you say intended for use in the model 92 rifles and such because they would have been marked for smokeless. I'm not sure if any original 1873 rifles were ever marked for smokeless powder as I've never owned one that new. Think of the "rifle" marked vintage ammo being like +P ammo today.

The 32wcf "Winchester central fire" or later known as 32-20, started out as a small game black powder rifle cartridge chambering for the 73 Winchester and soon picked up by Colt and lived into the 20th century in many firearms and was fairly popular chambering in revolvers into the smokeless era.

People have to remember when dealing with very old cartridges like this is that a lot of things changed in the late 19th century shortly after cartridges like the 32-20, 45 colt, 44-40, etc were designed and those cartridges lived through those changes. Changes in the types of propellants, the projectiles used, to the designs and metallurgy in firearms to withstand those changes. Back then when common sense prevailed they could box ammo for specific applications and life went on. Any commercial 32-20 ammo I've shot was pretty weak and I'm sure because ammo manufactures today no longer assume common sense prevails.

It's definitely best to stay on the side of caution when loading ammo in cartridges like this and if in doubt have your gun looked at by a qualified gunsmith and get their opinion.
Talked to Mike the tech at Old Eynsford. He mentioned that the CTG early on was a balloon CTG. He explained that the CTG would accept powder into and around the rim on the CTG. The CTG would accept the full 20 grains of BP given the additional room around the rim. I guess that is how they made shells back then.

My vintage S&W 32-20 pistol 2nd. generation takes a smaller bullet than the standard modern load a .313 I believe. I contacted Montana bullet works and he instructed me how to "slug" the barrel. " Montana Bullet Works
To measure the groove diameter of a rifle barrel, drive an egg sinker, soft lead bullet, or round ball (like those sold for muzzleloaders) through the barrel. The ball should be slightly larger than needed to get an accurate impression. Make sure the barrel is clean and lightly grease the slug before pushing it through. Use a stout cleaning rod or wooden dowel. For most guns, drive the slug from the muzzle end and retrieve it from the chamber. For muzzleloaders, drive the slug a few inches into the barrel and retrieve it with a worm jag. If your gun has an even number of lands and grooves, the groove diameter (now the high spots on the slug) can be measured with a micrometer or calipers."
YouTube also has some great videos showing how to slug a rifle, this one from iraqveteran8888:
The throat of the pistol chamber measured .311. Had I tried to put a .313 into the chamber It would not of fit or it would of become stuck being .002 over the maximum. They have a mold for the .311 bullett so I was in luck.


My 32-20 rifle slugged to .313 so a .314 was the bullet of choice of which there are several options. I chose not to have the additional GC-gas chambered addition they put on the bullets. As far as I can tell it is just there to keep the barrel from leading up, acting as sort of a cleaner of lead. It is made of copper so it is harder than lead but being Wikipedia smart it seems only necessary of higher caliber bullets.
 
Sheesh

I have slugged lots of barrels. That guy makes it look a lot more difficult than it has to be. I get nervous when anybody is using a hammer near the muzzle, even if it is a soft hammer. And I will also tell you it is not absolutely necessary to lube the slug either. I have slugged plenty of barrels with a dry slug. I have used everything from a soft lead ball, to a fishing weight, to a hard cast bullet, they all work. I have never used a wooden rod, too easy to crush or break. I start the slug with a short brass rod about 6" long. Easy to hold onto and keeps the hammer away from the muzzle. When the short rod is almost all the way in I switch to a long rod about 3 feet long. Simple, easy peasy. Takes about 5 minutes to slug a bore and that includes set up time. The key is to use a slug big enough to completely fill up the rifling of the barrel. If the slug does not show drag marks on the high spots, which coincide with the grooves, than it probably did not completely fill the grooves and the measurement is suspect. Easy to slug a barrel with an even number of grooves, just measure across the high spots with a caliper. More difficult with an odd number of grooves (most S&W barrels) because you can only measure from high point to low point, and then you have to measure the height (depth) of the grooves and add that on. Tough to get that accurate. There is a technique for slugging barrels with an odd number of grooves that involves using a V block to measure and doing some calculations, but I have never gotten the hang of it.


Let's talk 32-20 for a moment. The Winchester Model 1892 in this photo was made in 1911. the S&W 32-20 Hand Ejector on the left was made in 1916. The Colt Police Positive Special 32-20 on the right was made in 1926. I have no problem putting modern Smokeless 32-20 Cowboy ammunition through any of them.

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Any idea exactly what 32-20 S&W revolver you have? I may be able to help date it if you know the model and Serial Number. If you have a good photo I that would help too.




Anyway, loading Black Powder into a cartridge is super easy, you are making it harder than it needs to be. You simply pour in enough powder so that when you seat the bullet it compresses the powder between 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it.

How to determine the correct amount? Here is a technique I have used for years. You make a little ruler out of a small stick. you place the end of the stick at the crimp groove on a bullet, and make a mark at the rear of the bullet.

Like this:

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Then you place the ruler with the mark at the mouth of the case, and pour in enough powder so that it covers the base of the ruler by about 1/16" to 1/8". That's all there is to it! No remarks about the fingernails, those are the lovely Mrs Johnson's fingers who held the little ruler while I took the photo.

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Or, you could use your caliper to measure the distance from crimp groove to base of the bullet, and then use the extension dohikkey at the end of the caliper the same way. Pour in enough powder so the base of the extension dohicky is covered by about 1/16" - 1/8" of powder.

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It really is that simple. You have now determined the correct amount of Black Powder powder for that bullet. Then you pour it out into the pan of your powder scale and weigh it. Yes, I said weigh it, don't listen to all that guff about you never weigh Black Powder. You now have determined the perfect weight of the powder charge for that bullet in that case. NOTE: unlike Smokeless powder, not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. They all weigh a little bit different. So you have determined the perfect weight of powder for that bullet and that brand and granulation of powder.

Do yourself a favor, buy a set of Lee dippers:

https://leeprecision.com/powder-measure-kit.html

Cheap and well worth the money. Throw away the sliding rule that comes with it, or just ignore it, I find the data on it is mostly incorrect.

Use the above technique to select a Lee dipper which gives you the closest to the ideal 1/16" -1/8" compression. This is not rocket science, it does not have to be exact.

I use several different Lee dippers when I set up for loading cartridges with BP, I select the one that works best for the cartridge in question. I have some custom dippers I made from spent cases soldered to a brass wire.

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When using your dipper always use a consistent motion to dip out the same amount of powder each time. Use the dipper like an ice cream scoop to scoop up the powder, then scrape off the excess with a piece of card.

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I load Black Powder on a progressive press, and I have several powder rotors set up for my standard loads. But dippers work fine if you are loading on a single stage press.

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If you are loading on a single stage press, all you need is a set of dippers. My old single stage Lyman Spartan press is set up for 45-70 in this photo, but it would work fine with 32-20 too.

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This is what the guy at Old Eynsford was talking about. The case on the left is an old Balloon Head case. The case on the right is a modern Solid Head case. These are both 45 Colt cases, but the idea is the same for all cases. You can see the Balloon Head case has more interior volume, so it would take more Black Powder to fill it up than with a modern case, Balloon Head cases have not been made for a long time, so this is not an issue.

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Primers:

You really need to buy a reloading manual. Stop looking up stuff on the web and actually buy a real book and READ IT!

You are confusing primers with loading dies. Primers are the little button shaped thing you press into the primer pocket at the rear of the case. When a firing pin strikes them, they send a flame through the flash hole to ignite the powder charge. You can see all that on the sectioned cases in the photo above.

Modern 32-20 cases take Small Pistol Primers. Period. Not Small Rifle Primers or anything else. Small Pistol Primers. You can use any brand, Winchester, Federal, CCI, it does not matter.

Reloading dies are the metal tubes you shove your cartridges into to load them. This is a set of 32-20 dies. Notice there are three dies in the set. Other types of dies only have two dies, but for 32-20 you need three. This is a set of fancy RCBS Cowboy Dies. It is not necessary to buy this set, any brand will do, these have a couple of features that make it slightly easier to load. Notice I keep a few dummy cartridges, without powder or primers in the box, in case I have to reset the dies for any reason. Also, notice there is a shell holder in the box. The gray, round, steel piece. This does not come with a set of dies, you have to buy a shell holder separately, and they are specific to a particular cartridge. One other thing: Some die sets come with a carbide ring in the bottom of the sizing die. This means that case lube does not have to be used with them. Tapered die sets, like 32-20 are not available in a carbide version, so case lube must be used on your cases or they will probably get stuck in the dies. No fun, trust me on this.

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Bullets: because tubular magazine rifles have the point of one bullet resting against the primer of the cartridge in front, you do not want any sort of pointed bullet loaded into a cartridge that goes into a rifle with a tubular magazine. You can use any bullet style in a revolver. Forget gas checks. You don't need those. They are to prevent the rear of the bullet from being softened by the hot expanding combustion gasses. Plain lead bullets will serve you fine. Standard bullet diameter for 32-20 is .313. Don't sweat it if your barrel slugs a little bit larger or smaller, .313 will be fine. Let me know how you make out slugging that S&W barrel which probably has an odd number of grooves. Most usually have five grooves.

One other thing about bullets. If you use standard off the shelf bullets with Black Powder you will probably build up a deposit of hard fouling in the grooves which will quickly degrade accuracy and be difficult to remove. For all my Black Powder cartridges I use bullets with a soft Black Powder compatible bullet lube. I used to pan lube my bullets with a mixture of Crisco and beeswax. These days I buy my bullets from a guy in California who casts them special and lubes them with his own home made bullet lube.

P.S.Regarding the difficulty of loading WCF cartridges and splitting the neck of crumpling the case. Yes, all the WCF cartridges: 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, and 25-20 have very thin brass at the case mouth. Thinner than say 45 Colt. That is just the way they are. So yes, you have to be very careful setting up your dies with those cartridges, the brass is not as forgiving as loading cartridges with thicker brass at the case mouth, such as 45 Colt. I set my dies very carefully, with these cartridges.

Here is a trick I learned a long time ago. When I set up my dies for any of these cartridges, I leave a hair of space between the top of the case mouth and the underside of the top of the crimp groove in the bullet. This is a 44-40 round, but the trick works for all the WCF cartridges.

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As the ram of the press shoves the case up into the seating/crimp die, the brass 'swallows' the stationary bullet. If the die is set so the tippy top of the brass bumps into the underside of the crimp groove, something has to give. What usually happens is the brass at the mouth gets shoved down and crumples below the bullet. Like this. I actually set the dies to exaggerate the effect.

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If a hair of space is left, say about .005 or so, the brass stops rising up and does not get shoved down from butting against the top edge of the crimp groove. When setting up my dies I simply measure a few cases, and select a few that are the longest by a few thousandths to use when setting up my dies. Then any slightly shorter cases will be guaranteed not to bump into the underside of the crimp groove.

The other thing you have to remember when loading WCF cartridges is do not rush. If you raise the ram quickly, and the case is slightly off center in the shell holder, the mouth of the case may strike the bottom of the die. A more robust case, like 45 Colt would shrug off the insult, but a WCF case will probably get mashed. The solution is simple. Slow down. That way if you feel a case bump into the bottom of the die you can stop the stroke before any damage is done to the case. Simply straighten it out, and guide the case mouth into the die with one hand and no damage will be done to the case.

I always say, loading WCF cartridges is not difficult, but it is fussy. You have to set your dies up just right, and you have to slow down.
 
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Let's talk 32-20 for a moment. The Winchester Model 1892 in this photo was made in 1911. the S&W 32-20 Hand Ejector on the left was made in 1916. The Colt Police Positive Special 32-20 on the right was made in 1926. I have no problem putting modern Smokeless 32-20 Cowboy ammunition through any of them.

Agreed. My 1930 PPS has handled Vintage WWB and Remington, modern Winchester gray box, HSM, Ultramax, hand loads, no problem. I don't shoot it a lot, but when I do, I don't worry about the ammo.
 
To: Driftwood Johnson, Wow, that is some post. On the barrel is Pat. Apr. 9,89, March 27,94, May 31,95, July 18,95, Aug.4,96, Dec.22,96, Oct.4,98,Oct.08,01, Dec.17,01. My S&W has a serial on the base of the handle 17925* and on the cylinder 17925 and on the cylinder hinge seen when the chamber is opened is 17691. Pearl gold S&W logo on the handles, nickel plated. Thanks again for that awesome post.
 
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Sheesh

I have slugged lots of barrels. Any idea exactly what 32-20 S&W revolver you have? I may be able to help date it if you know the model and Serial Number. If you have a good photo I that would help too. Wow, that is some post. On the barrel is Pat. Apr. 9,89, March 27,94, May 31,95, July 18,95, Aug.4,96, Dec.22,96, Oct.4,98,Oct.08,01, Dec.17,01. My S&W has a serial on the base of the handle 17925* and on the cylinder 17925 and on the cylinder hinge seen when the chamber is opened is 17691. Pearl gold S&W logo on the handles, nickel plated. Thanks again for that awesome post.
 

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SAAMI I understand is what reloading manufactures model there specifications for dies and concurrently brass manufactures such as Remington and others design and produce shells for reloading. I bought 250 brass casing from Remington and measured the shell casing per the case measurements given through Wikipedia on the specfication measurements given there for the 32-20 Winchester. My Remington shell casings fall short of these measurements for rim diameter, rim thickness, case length is very close. Example: rim diameter .408, Remington rim diameter .404 / rim thickness .065, Remington .063 / neck diameter .327 Remington .323 / base diameter .354 Remington .346. A tech at Remington stated that Remington brass is soft whereas Winchester is hard. The other measurement that concerns me is the SAAMI requirements of shell thickness. My web search stated between .008 and .010 on the thickness, Remington is .008 in shell brass thickness. I only did this to select the best casing for my reloads. Several other shell manufactures like Horndey, Federal, Lapua seem to hold a much higher standard and if so their price reflects it almost two to three times the price of Remington brass but I do not have their shells to see if their brass is thicker than .008, it would be interesting to know since that information is not giver out by the manufactures over the phone.

All of this aside I am building up to ask a simple question to you reloading experts. I understand or have been told that new brass should be resized but in my vintage pistol in particular the new brass casing just slides in the chamber. Why would I need to resize the case at all until I spent the round. I understand about bevelling the mouth of the rim of the case to receive the bullet but like the old addage , if it ain't broke why fix it, so why resize the case since it might become smaller or less tight in the chamber. I started the caseing in the Cowboy dies I bought and it appears it will resize the new casing down. Is this an old versus new issue whereas firearms and there ammo was peoduced differently than todays standards. Since it is a bottleneck case and not a straight wall case you are not able to resize from inside out only from the outside. Why is this brass made so thin. Is it because it has to be.
 

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Driftwood gives some good advice. Only thing I would add is make sure your bullet is .001 or .002 larger than the cylinder throat. They should push through with very little effort, not drop through unassisted.

If using black powder, lube specific to black powder is a must. Not going to load many? But the stuff. Loading thousands? Buy the first stick so you see how it works and then find a recipe and make your own, but that is another thread.

Kevin
 
To: Driftwood Johnson, Wow, that is some post. On the barrel is Pat. Apr. 9,89, March 27,94, May 31,95, July 18,95, Aug.4,96, Dec.22,96, Oct.4,98,Oct.08,01, Dec.17,01. My S&W has a serial on the base of the handle 17925* and on the cylinder 17925 and on the cylinder hinge seen when the chamber is opened is 17691. Pearl gold S&W logo on the handles, nickel plated. Thanks again for that awesome post.

The serial number is the number on your grip frame. The fact that the cylinder matchescis a good thing as it shows it is original to the revolver. The number on the crane or yoke (17691) is an assembly number to keep the parts together in the factory. The asterisk after the serial number indicates your fevolver was returned to the factory for some kind of service or repair.

Speaking of serial numbers, the common place S&W marked their revolvers is the bottom of the grip frame, on the cylinder, on the back of the extractor, on the arm of the yoke, and on the barrel flat.

You can spend $100 to get a factory letter that tells you when it shopped from the factory, where it was sent, how it was built ( barrel length, finish, stocks, sights, anything special). It will also tell you it was back for service but not what the service was. For that you have to contact the S&W Historical Society. Acty, the factory letter is no longer offered by the factory. The historian, Roy Jinks, retired and not replaced. He now works with the Historical Society.

Nice revolver, have fun with it.

Kevin
 
You can do all those tricks as Driftwood mentioned or whatever but I can tell you straight up the best insurance you have against crushing a case is to crimp on a separate stage than seating the bullet. and a Lee FCD completely eliminates crushing the cases because its a collet that squeezes the whole case.

The image shared above is what is referred to as a semi balloon head case, the actual balloon head cases were folded and many were copper cases and the whole base was more hollow. That's why you can only get around 17 or so grains in new cases today and the old cartridges had 20 grains.

If you want a custom 32-20 bullet mold with a large lube groove like the 44 bullet Driftwood showed above I designed one and with the help of the late John Kort got it drawn up an it is in the Accurate mold catalog listed as the 31-115D. I designed it with a bit heavier base than another bullet in the catalog people had tried. The 31-115D has the same nose as the original bullets found in 19th century Winchester 32wcf loadings but had a crimp groove added to the point for max oal for the Uberti rifles today and the large lube groove allows me to shoot an entire 6 stage match without cleaning or loosing any accuracy.
 
Howdy Again

I am a little bit confused over your serial number. The number on the bottom of the grip on a S&W revolver is the serial number.

You stated the SN is 17925*. If it is a six digit SN, for instance 179251, that number is too high, it is out of the range of 32-20 Hand Ejectors. However if the SN is 17925, five digits, the gun was made between 1903 and 1905. The serial number on these older S&W revolvers typically shows up in 4 places; bottom of the grip, rear of the cylinder, flat on the underside of the barrel, and underneath the ejector star.

The image shared above is what is referred to as a semi balloon head case, the actual balloon head cases were folded and many were copper cases and the whole base was more hollow. That's why you can only get around 17 or so grains in new cases today and the old cartridges had 20 grains.

That is incorrect, what I pictured above is indeed a Balloon Head case. The folded, copper cases you are referring to are the old Benét primed folded copper cases. These were only made for a short time in the late 1860s up until the mid 1870s. The case was made of copper. Inside there was an iron 'anvil cup' pressed into the bottom of the case and held in place with a crimp near the bottom of the case. The priming compound was deposited between the bottom of the case and the anvil cup. There was no visible primer on the outside of the case, so they are often mistaken for rim fire cases. The first versions of the 45 Colt cartridge and the 45 Schofield cartridge were Benét primed. The two rounds in the center of this photo are Benét primed. The cases are made of copper and the very prominent crimp at the bottom is holding the interior anvil plate in position. The two rounds on the left are 45 Colt, the two rounds on the right are 45 Schofield. The outer two rounds are my own reloads.

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The original 45-70 rounds were also copper cased Benét primed rounds. The round on the left is Benet primed. These caused problems with the early Trapdoor rifles the Army was using because the extractor could rip through the rim, leaving most of the spent round in the chamber. Then the only way to get it out was to pry it out with a knife. Not a good situation during a battle.

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This photo shows a cross section of Benet primed rounds. The anvil plate is obvious, being held in place its crimp. The anvil plate had two holes in it to allow the flame from the priming compound to jet through and ignite the main powder charge. This photo also shows the folded copper nature of the case head. Since the priming was on the interior of the round, there is no visible primer at the case head, making them look like Rimfire rounds. Incidentally, Benet priming is named after Stephen Vincent Benét, the commander of the Frankford Arsenal. He was instrumental in developing this priming system. But yes, Benét primed rounds had more interior powder capacity than the later Balloon Head rounds, and more than current Solid Head rounds.

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As far as bullet diameter is concerned, I always say the correct diameter bullet for any revolver is one that can easily be pushed through the chamber throat with gentle pressure from a pencil. The easy way to determine this is to hold the revolver pointing at the ground with the cylinder open. Drop a prospective bullet into the chamber. If it falls right through the chamber throat (the narrow portion at the front of the chamber) it is too small. If it takes a lot of force to shove it through the chamber throat, it is too big. If gentle pressure with the end of a pencil or pen pushes the bullet through the chamber throat, it is just right.



Cartridge Dimensions: SAAMI stands for Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute. It is a volunteer organization of American firearm and ammunition manufacturers that sets standards used in the American firearms industry. In addition to specifying dimensions for cartridges and chambers, SAAMI also sets the acceptable maximum pressure for cartridges.

https://saami.org/

Rather than rely on a questionable second source such as Wikipedia, after all anybody can edit a Wikipedia page whether they know what they are talking about or not, why not go to the horse's mouth and get the official data on cartridge dimensions?

This is the official SAAMI spec drawing of the 32-20 cartridge and its chamber.

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Notice this drawing includes tolerances. It is impossible to manufacture anything, yes anything, to an exact size. There will always be a slight variation in critical dimensions on any mass produced object. What a tolerance does is set the limits on how much a dimension can vary from the 'perfect' measurement, and still function as it is supposed to. Generally speaking, the tighter the tolerances are, the more expensive it will be to manufacture the part. So mechanical designers set tolerances as loosely as possible so that the part will not be too expensive to manufacture, but will still function as designed. This drawing uses the old fashioned + and - tolerancing scheme, but it still works fine. Let's go through it for a moment. Rim diameter is specified as .408 +0/-.010. So any rim diameter from .398 to .408 is acceptable. Take a look for a moment at the dimensions of the of the pocket that receives the rim in the chamber drawing. Diameter is set as .418 +.012/-0. So the smallest pocket diameter or .418, will still accept the largest acceptable cartridge rim diameter of .408. That is the way mechanical designers determine what tolerances are acceptable. If the tolerancing is too tight, many completed parts will not be acceptable and will have to be discarded, greatly increasing the cost to manufacture. If tolerances really need to be tight for a part to function properly in an assembly, the tolerancing will reflect that. Otherwise, tolerances are always kept as loose as possible so the parts will work well together and not be too expensive to manufacture.

As an example, back when I was a mechanical designer, the default tolerance on all our drawings was +/-.005 out to three decimal places. So any part that was within a .010 spread of the stated dimension was acceptable. If I needed it tighter, I would specify +/-.002 or something on that order. Even with today's CNC equipment, going much tighter than that starts to approach the limits of what is repeatable.

OK, rim thickness is .065 +0/-.010. So anything between .055 and .065 is acceptable. You can go through the entire drawing, I'm not going to, but I'll bet you will find your Remington brass is what we call 'in tolerance'.

Example: rim diameter .408, Remington rim diameter .404 / rim thickness .065, Remington .063 / neck diameter .327 Remington .323 / base diameter .354 Remington .346. A tech at Remington stated that Remington brass is soft whereas Winchester is hard. The other measurement that concerns me is the SAAMI requirements of shell thickness. My web search stated between .008 and .010 on the thickness, Remington is .008 in shell brass thickness.


I always buy Starline brass. I have a few pieces of 32-20 in hand right now. Rim diameter .402. Rim Thickness, .060. Over All Length, 1.283. All well within Tolerance.

Sizing new brass: When a cartridge is fired, the interior pressure expands the diameter of the brass. One of the beauties of cartridge brass (70% copper 30% zinc) is that it has a little bit of 'spring' to it. So as the cartridge fires, the brass will expand to completely fill the chamber, but it will spring back ever so slightly. This is good because if the brass were dead soft it would expand to the diameter of the chamber and get stuck. It is always recommended to size brand new brass. The brass just might be out of spec, and sizing it will squeeze it down to spec. I do most of my reloading on a progressive press, and the sizing/decap die is the first die the brass runs through. So all my brass gets sized, whether it is brand new or has been fired a bazillion times. It is not worth the effort for me to remove the sizing/decap die for brand new brass. Even on a single stage press I will always size brand new brass right out of the bag. I can tell you this is not always absolutely necessary, when I load brand new Starline 44-40 brass, the sizing/decap die barely touches it. I could probably load that stuff without sizing it. But sizing brand new brass is a good habit to get into, because you have to resize spent brass anyway.

By the way, you will need Case Lube to size your 32-20 brass. There are no Carbide dies available for the tapered cartridges, such as 32-20. Carbide dies are very, very smooth on the inside, and will allow unlubed cases to be sized without getting stuck in the die. But because of the manufacturing techniques used to make them, there are no Carbide dies for 32-20 and the other WCF dies. If there were, they would be hideously expensive.If you run unlubed brass into a conventional steel sizing/decap die, it will probably get stuck and you will not be able to remove it without completely disassembling the die and forcing the stuck brass out. Trust me on this. Traditionally reloaders used to use a pad to wipe case lube onto their cases before loading them. These days there are aerosol sprays available.

This is the stuff I use. The red spray can at the top of the page. Just like the old Brylcreem ads used to say, a little dab will do ya.If you spray too much on, and leave drops of case lube on your brass, the drops can dent the cases. Again, trust me on this. I usually set all my cases for a loading session into a wooden loading block, and give the brass a quick spray. No sweat if some gets inside. Then I let the lube dry for a few minutes while I set up my dies in my press.

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/case-care/lubes-and-cleaners/case-lubes
 
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Trivia alert:
In the 1880s UMC started headstamping ammo with "S H" for Solid Head to differentiate what we now call "balloon head" from the folded head D.J. shows above. A cartridge collector's board got into the improvement from there with a thicker head but still protruding primer pocket as the "semi-balloon head." Then the head got so thick as to be flush across the inside as what we now call "solid head."
 
Driftwood I'm not going to argue with you but what you showed was what is referred to as semi-balloon head. Here is a good diagram with just a quick search. #3 is a full balloon head case, #4 is semi-balloon head It's all a matter of what someone calls them but this is what was always called. A full balloon head is also called a folded head. According to my late elders what you are calling balloon head was also called the solid head before todays solid head came along. As the cases progressed apparently the terminology did too.
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I never heard a folded head case called "full balloon" before. The cartridge collector's board I googled made a distinction between "balloon head" which had a solid rim and a protruding primer pocket, marked "S H" for "Solid Head" by UMC, and later cases with thicker head but still some protrusion of the primer pocket as "semi-balloon head." But that is a fine distinction among collectors, lost on modern shooters and having no effect on modern ammunition. I have one balloon head or semi balloon head .44 Special picked up on a range years ago.

Elmer Keith made a difference of a full grain of powder between balloon head and solid head .44 Special cases. MORE powder in the roomier balloon head, less in the solid head.

These days, if you chance upon a balloon head case, do like I did and put it on the shelf as a novelty.
 
Howdy Again

The Balloon Head case in question came from this box. I bought it some years ago, I seem to recall from someone on the SASS Wire. As can be seen, it is a box of unprimed brass from Remington. Probably from the 1930s. The case heads are all marked REM-UMC (Remington-Union Metallic Cartridge). Remington merged with UMC in 1912. I have not counted them recently, but it is pretty much a full box, minus the one I sectioned for that photo. I obviously seated a primer in one, probably as an experiment to see how a modern primer would seat, I don't really remember. For some time now I have been planning to load them with Black Powder, which should help determine how much more powder they can hold than modern solid head brass. Notice how there is no 'extractor groove' above the rim as there is with modern 45 Colt brass. Rim diameter is very small, only around .505, much smaller than the current SAAMI standard of .512. but still within tolerance, .512 +0/-.012. With such a small rim, they might not extract too well in a rifle, but I don't care because I don't have any rifles chambered for 45 Colt. Rifles were not chambered for 45 Colt until sometime in the 1980s, so this was not a problem when this brass was made. If no one objects, I will continue to call this brass Balloon Heads. Actually, I will continue to call them that even if someone does object. The misspelling of Balloon Head was not done by me.

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Can you comment on how much black powder is correct for loading the 32-20 Winchester cartridge. I am using a RCBS 98gr. .311 Bullet for my pistol loads. It has two grooves one for the special SPG Black powder lube and the top groove for the crimp. The other bullet is a NOE 115gr FN-PB .314. If I fill a 32-20 casing to the top using Swiss 2fg no.3 black powder it weighed out at exactly 18.3 grains.

Each bullet I use has different lengths. The 98gr. bullet is .566 in height and the crimp ring is .208 from the base. The 115gr. bullet is .616 in height and crimp ring is .314 from the base.

Some where I read or heard that with black powder fill the shell to where the base of the bullet sits in the the cartridge. Other sources say to compress the black powder by over filling. Since the larger bullet needs more powder to maintain it's velocity less powder is less power. Usings 2fg. will compress more than 3fg. too I imagine.
 
I already answered your question in post 28.

Modern brass does not have as much internal capacity as the old Balloon Head brass that was used in the late 1800s. Look at my photo of a Balloon Head case compared to a modern solid head case. I am not going to get into an argument about what the proper name for my Balloon Head cases is, as far as I am concerned, they are Balloon Head cases. Period.

Take another look at the photos of how I determine the proper amount of powder for a particular cartridge and a particular bullet.

The proper amount of powder is the amount that will be compressed between 1/16" and 1/8" when the bullet is seated. No, do not fill the case to the brim. Do as I do. Determine how much of your bullet will be seated inside the case, below the case mouth, when seated and crimped. This will vary slightly for different bullet designs, depending on where the crimp groove sits on the bullet. The proper amount of powder will be the amount that is compressed between 1/16" and 1/8" when the bullet is seated.

It is that simple.

You may actually get away with the same powder charge for both bullets, I don't know, it depends on how precise you want to be.

When you think about it, allowing for between 1/16" of compression, and 1/8" of compression is a pretty broad standard. When loading 45-70 for my Sharps I would be more exacting than that. I would also use a compression die to compress the powder before seating the bullet. You just don't need that kind of precision if you are loading for a revolver. Determine the numbers, pour out the powder into your scale and weigh it. That will be the correct amount for your cartridge and your bullet. Ignore guys who say you don't weigh Black Powder, they don't know what they are talking about.

You will also hear that you should not compress the powder with the bullet, it will deform the base of the bullet and ruin accuracy. Again, when I load 45-70 for precision accuracy in my Sharps, I do not compress the powder with the base of the bullet. I use a compression die to compress the powder, I seat a thin card wad over the powder, and then I seat and crimp the bullet.

All of that is unnecessary if loading Black Powder for a revolver. I proved this to myself many years ago. I loaded up some 44-40 with a card wad between the powder and the bullet, in order to not deform the rear of the bullet, and I loaded some by just compressing the powder with the bullet as I keep saying. Then I fired the two different loads out of a Winchester Model 1892 at about 10 yards. I could determine no significant difference in accuracy with either load. Maybe something would have shown up at 100 yards, but not at 10 yards. Certainly not with a revolver.

I have been doing this for over 20 years. If you want to weigh your powder, go right ahead. If you want to measure strictly by volume, that is fine too. Just be consistent.

All other things being equal, you will see between 60 fps to 100 fps more velocity when using FFFg instead of FFg. Use the same amount of powder with either granulation.

Swiss Black Powder is very high grade stuff. Much better than Goex. Swiss uses a different type of charcoal than Goex, and the powder burns cleaner, leaving less fouling in the barrel than Goex.

I suspect your bullets carry far less bullet lube on them than the Big Lube bullets I use for all my Black Powder cartridge loads. But since you are using Swiss, which burns very clean, and since you are shooting a revolver, your bullets will probably be fine and you will not experience hard fouling building up near the muzzle and will probably not experience the cylinder binding from Black Powder fouling. I can shoot a revolver all day long with my BP loads with Big Lube bullets and have no problems.

If you experience hard fouling near the muzzle affecting accuracy, swab your barrel out with your favorite water based Black Powder solvent. If you experience the cylinder binding from fouling on the surface of the cylinder, wipe off the front of the cylinder with a moist cloth.

Any other questions?
 
Is there a general rule when crimping bullets. 32-20 bullet has a crimp ring. After gently crimping running a fingenail over the crimp and only catching a little of the rim I stop the crimp. I guess there is no advantage to crimping so the rim is firmly imbedded into the crimp groove. I assumed crimping so tightly would impead the ve!ocity of the bullet. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
Howdy Again

I can tell by your questions that you still haven't bought a loading manual, have you?

You really should buy a recognized loading manual if you want to be loading ammunition safely. There is way too much erroneous information on the Internet.

First, let's get some terms correct.

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When you crimp your cartridge, you are folding over the case mouth into the crimp groove on the bullet.

If you are working all by yourself with no other reference, a good way to determine if your crimp is correct is to compare it to some factory loaded ammo.

On the left in this photo are a few of my 32-20 test dummies. On the right are some commercial Winchester 32-20 rounds.

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What brand of dies are you using? Dies for most revolver cartridges, 32-20 can be considered a revolver cartridge for our purposes, make what is called a Roll Crimp. When the crimp has been properly formed, it's profile is round.

This photo should help. On the left is one of my 45 Colt reloads. On the right is a commercial 45 ACP semi-auto round.

Notice the profile of the crimp on the 45 Colt round. See how it is 'rolled' into the crimp groove. Yeah, if I run my thumbnail over it I can feel where the crimp is, but the point is the crimp die formed a rolled crimp. It is round, or radiused in profile. Now notice the 45 ACP crimp. It is almost non existent. The 45 ACP round has a Tapered crimp. The reasoning is, when a rimmed cartridge such as 45 Colt, or 38 Special, or 32-20 is inserted into a chamber, it is the rim of the cartridge that prevents the cartridge from falling all the way into the chamber. That is called Head Spacing. A rimmed cartridge such as 45 Colt or 38 Special, or 32-20 Head Spaces on the rim of the cartridge.

The 45 ACP cartridge is considered a Rimless cartridge. Yes, there is a rim, but the rim is no wider than the body of the cartridge. There is a great big extractor groove on the 45 ACP, for the extractor claw to grab, but the rim of the 45 ACP round is no wider than the rest of the body of the cartridge. So what keeps the 45 ACP from falling too far into the case? The case mouth. Most semi-auto cartridges such as 45 ACP do not have a crimp groove on the bullet. The crimp simply bites into the diameter of the bullet. When a 45 ACP is properly crimped, about 1/2 of the thickness of the brass at the case mouth will dig itself into the bullet, and the other 1/2 of the thickness of the brass will be standing proud of the bullet. Inside the chamber of a 45 ACP or 9MM pistol there is a squared off section in the chamber that the exposed portion of the case mouth butts up against to keep it from falling any further into the chamber. We say that such a cartridge Head Spaces on the case mouth, not on the rim, like a 45 Colt, etc.

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So.

The crimps on your 32-20 ammo should resemble the crimp on my 45 Colt round. Looking at it in profile, the crimp should be rolled over into the crimp groove.

The slightly sticky part to all this is that 32-20, like 38-40 and 44-40, has very thin brass at the case mouth. Depending on the brand of die you used, the crimp may or may not have the nice round profile that my 45 Colt crimp has.

Your 32-20 crimp may actually look slightly smooshed into the crimp groove.


I guess there is no advantage to crimping so the rim is firmly imbedded into the crimp groove. I assumed crimping so tightly would impead the ve!ocity of the bullet. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Actually, that is incorrect. You want what I call a Firm Crimp. Particularly in a round like 32-20, which has thin brass at the case mouth.

When a cartridge first fires, you want some resistance to the bullet moving out of the cartridge case. There are those in the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle world who put no crimp on their cases at all.

Let's back track for a moment. When your bullet first slides into the cartridge case, there should be a little bit of resistance to it sliding in. The bullet should be ever so slightly larger in diameter than the inside of the case mouth. Only about .001 or so. That creates what is called Neck Tension. So the brass is clinging slightly to the bullet. Neck tension does not hold a bullet very firmly. The BPCR guys can get away with this because they are shooting single shot rifles. There are no extra rounds sitting in a magazine or the chambers of a revolver. So when they fire a round, it's gone and they then load a fresh round. If you try loading 45 ACP with just neck tension and no crimp, the unfired bullets in the magazine will attempt to jump forward every time the gun fires. Actually, they stay still and everything else, the gun, and the cartridge case, jumps backward. So any firearm that is a repeater, like a revolver, needs to have some crimp on the bullets to keep them from jumping forward in the case under recoil.

When the primer first fires, it starts the powder burning. With modern progressive burning powders, as the milliseconds pass, pressure builds inside the case. At some point, the pressure will build enough so that it starts to push the bullet out of the cartridge case. If there is very little crimp, the bullet will start moving before the pressure builds enough and the powder will burn inefficiently, never developing enough pressure to push the bullet down the bore at the desired velocity. With a Firm Crimp, the bullet gets delayed from moving just long enough that the pressure inside the case builds up to the proper level that the bullet will move smartly down the bore as it is supposed to.

So yes, you want a firm crimp on your 32-20 rounds. You want the crimp to have a firm hold on the bullet so it does not jump out of the case during recoil, and so that the pressure builds up enough.

Here is a good rule of thumb for how firm the crimp should be. Find a hard surface like a wooden desk or something. Something hard, not soft. Hold one of your loaded rounds with the bullet against the desk. Now push down on the round as hard as you can. If the bullet slides into the case, your crimp was not firm enough.

Here are some good reloading manuals. I suggest you buy one, and read it.

https://www.midwayusa.com/reloading-manuals/br?cid=19845


P.S. I forgot this is the Black Powder section of The High Road. You still want a firm crimp with Black Powder. You still want pressure to build a bit before the bullet starts moving. If you don't have a firm crimp, the case will not obdurate (swell) enough under the relatively light pressure generated by Black Powder to prevent fouling from blowing back into the chamber. Not so important with a revolver because fouling is going to blow all over the place anyway as it is blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap. Very important with a rifle to keep all the fouling in the bore, and not blowing back into the action.
 
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OP, Driftwood has gone to great lengths to advise on the proper procedures for loading 32-20. I also use 17 grain of 3fg and compress an 1/8" (dowel method for measuring works great) on my BP loads using Starline at 1.28". I'd recommend Lyman's 4th ed Cast Bullet Handbook for this particular cartridge. While your questions are always welcome I strongly urge you to at the very least pick up some sort of manual and read it thoroughly.
 
I am using the Hornady 32-20 Winchester Custom Grade Dies. I had to purchase the 32 S&W/H&R dies also to get the Hornady New Dimention Expander Die. I like Hornady dies for their quality especially the locking ring that tighten the dies in the press. My crimps are a little shallow according to your results Thanks for the excellant explanation on crimping loaded cartridges. Your right about advice over the web but not so far on the Highroad forum with experts like yourself
 

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OP, Driftwood has gone to great lengths to advise on the proper procedures for loading 32-20. I also use 17 grain of 3fg and compress an 1/8" (dowel method for measuring works great) on my BP loads using Starline at 1.28". I'd recommend Lyman's 4th ed Cast Bullet Handbook for this particular cartridge. While your questions are always welcome I strongly urge you to at the very least pick up some sort of manual and read it thoroughly.
Can you tell me what bullet you are using? Thanks
 
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