Elderly retired teacher arrested for Queen Anne flintrock

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"Why would someone in possession of narcotics consent to a search. This is starting to reek of "reasonable deception."

You might consent to a lot when some cop has a .40 pointed at your head and asks for "voluntary" consent.

Jim
 
Strange how First Amendment right cases can be made with unsavory defendants, but Second Amendment right cases have to have defendants who on the way to the Supreme Court can walk across the Reflecting Pool without getting their feet wet. Van Gilder is not a Heller or MacDonald. Second Amendment right cases have to be saints.


Apparently the elderly Van Gilder got the 21-yo to drive him to the antique dealer to pickup the pistol and the 21-yo took a side trip on the way back to buy some heroin. By the accounts, the vehicle was searched because it was in a drug buying area.

Van Gilder was originally released since an undersheriff decided it was a 250 year old antique, unloaded, not usable as a weapon, and Van Gilder had been cooperative. A day later, Sheriff Robert Austino ordered Gilder arrested at his home by deputies in three squad cars.


IF (big if) the authorities arrested Gilder to pressure him to testify against the driver, and he is largely ignorant about the driver's heroin connections, he is in a pickle. Police have arrested casual associates of guilty parties to pressure them for info; if they have info, they can get leniency; but, if they don't have info, they can get the full weight of the law, worse than active criminal associates who do have info to give up. In other words, boys and girls, it pays to pick your friends and associates carefully.

BTW searches for "Gordon Van Gilder" also bring up author Gordon Van Gelder a different person.
 
IF (big if) the authorities arrested Gilder to pressure him to testify against the driver, and he is largely ignorant about the driver's heroin connections, he is in a pickle. Police have arrested casual associates of guilty parties to pressure them for info; if they have info, they can get leniency; but, if they don't have info, they can get the full weight of the law, worse than active criminal associates who do have info to give up. In other words, boys and girls, it pays to pick your friends and associates carefully.

I don't think there are any "leniency" otions available here no matter what he knows or sings to.
This arrest involves the Graves Act and the charges against him have a Mandatory Sentence and the DA and AG cannot reduce them. I Think?
 
^^ The option in NJ is acceptance into a pretrial intervention program. That's what happened to the unfortunate woman arrested after crossing into NJ with the Pennsylvania CCW that she (dumbly) thought was good in NJ. It'll likely be the outcome here as well, based on the way things generally run. There's no court case to be had, as he is clearly in violation of NJ's statutes, which like it or not have alreayd been challenged without effect, and which are enshrined in law.


Willie

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2. I've been pulled over a time or two in New Jersey and never has the officer asked to search my car. What made the police want to search his car for a "minor infraction" of traffic rules?

From the article I read in the local paper, he was on his way home with it, got pulled over and told the officer it was in the car when asked if he had any firearms.
 
Minority opinion

I'm weighing in as a refugee from the peace loving people's republic of new jersey and as semi/LEO ( private guard with arrest powers and worked public housing in D.C. )

Hell NO!! N.J. cops are brain dead on 2a issues in general and the finest thing in life is to catch a jersey cop out of state with his/her/its sidearm where they ain't authorized. Especially if a cop from that jurisdiction has been hassled in Jersey. Serendipity.

People in N.J. in general have a brain lock when it comes to firearms issues. I made my first arrest on 7 Oct 87 on behalf of the Toll Bond Agency in Camden N.J.. I was armed with a rattan stick... yeah it's that teh stoopid.

What N.J. should be is a wake up call to the rest of the country. Don't let this happen to you. This teacher is actually getting a mild does believe it or not. Seems like he is one of the lucky ones. At least he didn't have 'hollowpoint' ammo with him. Couldda been worse.
 
Yeah I've gotten pulled over on 40 not even for being black, but for giving a black guy in a casino uniform a lift from a bus stop. An incredibly common occurrence for folks to give rides going in to the city. This chick only had two hashmarks on her sleeve, guess she hadn't figured the thing about casino people helping each other out...

I know for a fact that there are some good ones, but in general they are among the worst you will ever encounter. Avoid NJ at all costs, if you live there you might want to reconsider..
 
These situations make me happy to have stiffed the jersey gestapo on a ticket for blowing a tollbooth on the turnpike. Sign said "out of change pass here" so we did, never once thought to pull in at the hut and pay with a card...ticket came (beat us home) for 100 bucks plus toll. It was my buddies car, I gave him a stamped envelope, he wrote a 50 cent check and put it in the mail. Haven't heard from the jersey gestapo since then. They did cash the check, and we both come up clean on warrants.
 
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Willie Sutton said:
The option in NJ is acceptance into a pretrial intervention program. That's what happened to the unfortunate woman arrested after crossing into NJ with the Pennsylvania CCW that she (dumbly) thought was good in NJ. It'll likely be the outcome here as well, based on the way things generally run. There's no court case to be had, as he is clearly in violation of NJ's statutes, which like it or not have alreayd been challenged without effect, and which are enshrined in law.


Willie

I'm not sure the Pretrial Intervention is an option here.

Ms Allen was a PA resident charged in NJ with possession of a firearm and the DA was powerless to reduce her charges due to the Graves Act.

The AG issued a clarification directive that gave the DA the option to allow her to enter the Intervention program and not face Mandatory Felony charges.

The AG's directive is specific to "out-of-State" visitors. Van Guilder is a NJ resident.
Here?
http://www.nj.gov/oag/dcj/agguide/directives/Graves-Act-clarification-2014.pdf
 
Why would someone in possession of narcotics consent to a search.

I ask myself this on nearly a daily basis while entering new case files into the system. It literally happens all the time. It is the silliest thing I've ever heard of and it is extremely common.
 
Very strange case ... some bad decisions by the old gent, questionable association with the driver, but very disturbing behavior by the Sheriff's office. The Prosecutor's office likely saw the morass ahead decided it wasn't worth wading in hip deep into a scandal to come down on a senior citizen. The Prosecutor has enough challenges of her own just staying in office (a recent sex toy scandal and related complaint from a subordinate being just one).

Ahhh, New Jersey ...
 
They make a big deal about the age of the defendant, a 72 year old man, a senior citizen. Is this to imply he's incapable of following the law? Are they cutting him all this slack because of his age? Or because he has led an exemplary life to that point? Do they think he's senile just because he's 72?

Would the outcome of the case, possession of a 300 year old flintlock, have been different if it was a younger person? I have never seen anything in law that differentiates penalties based on different adult ages, aside from statutes meant to help persons under 18.

By using the age defense they have left the outcome ambiguous for others. I guess the heat generated in the press for this "senior citizen" forced the prosecutor to back off and drop charges. But the law itself remains. Would have been better for the other citizens of NJ if the case had gone to trial and a judge dismissed the charges and found the law to be improper.
 
By using the age defense they have left the outcome ambiguous for others. I guess the heat generated in the press for this "senior citizen" forced the prosecutor to back off and drop charges. But the law itself remains. Would have been better for the other citizens of NJ if the case had gone to trial and a judge dismissed the charges and found the law to be improper.

Several points in response:

Clearly the amount of national and international attention to this contributed significantly to the use of "prosecutorial discretion" in this case.

However, there is also the likelihood that there were serious flaws in the case itself. And questions about the Sheriff's conduct and media disclosures. And then there is the little nuance of whether this particular 300 year old flintlock could potentially be considered "inoperable."

And, importantly, the Prosecutor's office, and the Prosecutor herself, are still embroiled in a number of rather embarrassing scandals that they need to dig out from in the public's eye. This may have been a large factor, combined with the above, if you've been following the local news and politics.

In the end, this case may just have been a big stinking pile that the Prosecutor just did not need on her desk. The wrong case at the wrong time.

Last point. Whether or not it would have been better for the citizens of NJ, it would certainly not have better for a 72 year old pensioner with limited ability to pay the legal fees to defend the charges in court.

Had the case gone to trial, I really don't think a NJ judge would find the law to be improper. Maybe dismissed the case on a technicality or on a motion (e.g. if the flintlock were per se found to be inoperable). More likely is the chance that the defendant would be found guilty and this aggressive NJ law would have found precedent extending back to 300 year old flintlocks.

Remember, they can prosecute in NJ for an unregistered BB gun. And that has not been overturned yet.
 
P5 Guy said:
He will never see his property again no matter if he's charged or not. And that is the problem for me.
I have to wonder if he'd be able to visit his property by stopping by the sheriff's home . . .
 
THREE thoughts, New Jersey Cops IME even the decent fellows are almost to a person complete asses one gun laws. They suck, they should be jailed just for their felonious intent and conspiratory ways. I did meet one pro 2a Atlantic CIty Cop that was strictly Constitutional when no other cops were looking .....

Had a real decent neighbor cop who was untenable on the subject of unilateral personal disarmament. Stated that in Virginia with open carry legal he'd quit. He was serious and otherswise a great guy and a great cop, otherwise.

Number one son. possibly the only church going 17 year old virgin on the Island of Brigantine New Jersey, certainly in the minority among his peers.

Is at the arcade, trouble starts, he wisely leaves giving a ride to young hottie with a curfew. Cops pull him over for driving legally in a legal car. Find cub scout pocket knife, charge boy with two felonies, creepy cop ends up being alone with young girl while son is booked, loses seat in USMC infantry school.... Cop about crapped himself when I interviewed him as a civilian and with a friendly inquisitive interview. Not accusatory in the least. Case was dropped. Kid re-enlisted and went Motor T.

There is no defense or excuse for New Jersey Cops, or their gun laws. We should throw them out of the Union because they don't care about how it's done in America. I lived there for eight years, number one son is still there after honorable service. That cop craps himself everytime he sees the kid, no longer toting a badge..

Second thought, I'd rather have an unending stream of heroin buyers than cops who blatantly disregard the law. New trooper pulled me over in front of my house today without any probable cause mumbling some bullcrap about when I put my turn signal on, guess he didn't know I live here. I have a high tolerance for ethnic diversity and a low tolerance for death pledges ( mortgages ) HOA types and brain dead suburbanites, in general I do better in the sticks or the ghetto. My paid for home ain't exactly in the sticks.

BUT, as soon as this lad ran me he realized that he had made a terrible mistake and gracefully left the scene without giving me any reason to take an interest in him. Unfortunately there are too many black people here for the law to shut down the open air drug market like they would in the white suburb about 200 yards south of this cut...

I'll happily die right here in this crappy little hood in my crappy little paid for shack on my paid for land before I'd spend two months paying mortgage and Jersey taxes. It's not hypothetical, I could go back to cutting code in a cube and move one state to the North, have a McMansion, ain't gonna happen. Staying in Delaware or moving further South.

I feel sorry for people in New Jersey, but this fellow? Hard to have much sympathy. A teacher shuttling an addict around? You can find even violent offenders at my house sometimes. I'm not a qualified mentor but I'm here. I understand their condition, empathize with them, but they don't get to buy drugs out of my car.

My take? No innocent party here, none more injured than the constitution and if there is a benevolent and just God it won't be California falling into the ocean. That is all.
 
I have to wonder if he'd be able to visit his property by stopping by the sheriff's home . . .

Not if it has any resale value, had a buddy who got his prescriptions nicked by Jersey cops after a Martial Arts injury. You can bet they didn't keep his pain killers and muscle relaxants at home. Might have kept the stool softeners ( soft tissue damage in the abdomen from a fight ) until they figured out what they were...
 
What exactly is a "heroin bag"? A bag with heroin residue in it or is it just a small bag?

Mike

I am reasonably led to believe that heroin is packaged inside a wax paper type 'seal' inside of a small plastic bag giving small bags of heroin a recognizable profile.
 
They make a big deal about the age of the defendant, a 72 year old man, a senior citizen. Is this to imply he's incapable of following the law? Are they cutting him all this slack because of his age? Or because he has led an exemplary life to that point? Do they think he's senile just because he's 72?

Or too old to be rolling dirty looking to score some H. Somewhere, Keith Richards is crying and realizing it's really all over ;)
 
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