Engraving

[Styx]

Are all form 1 SBR that didn't come from the manufacturer with a brace and aren't 80% receivers (aka already have a manufacturer's serial number and engravings) need to have my name/trust and location engraved on the receiver? There's a lot of conflicting information online.

 

[GaryNC]

Are all form 1 SBR that didn't come from the manufacturer with a brace and aren't 80% receivers (aka already have a manufacturer's serial number and engravings) need to have my name/trust and location engraved on the receiver? There's a lot of conflicting information online.

Yes the MAKER of the SBR needs to have their name and location engraved on the receiver. MAKER can be individual or TRUST as listed on the from you filed with ATF.

 

[dogtown tom]

Are all form 1 SBR that didn't come from the manufacturer with a brace and aren't 80% receivers (aka already have a manufacturer's serial number and engravings) need to have my name/trust and location engraved on the receiver? There's a lot of conflicting information online.

Form 1's filed under the forbearance for pistols with arm braces are not required to have any makers engravings.
There shouldn't be any conflicting information because ATF has had this on their website for months:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/onc...k-firearm-i-manufactured-short-barreled-rifle

Once the firearm is registered, am I required to mark the firearm since I manufactured a short-barreled rifle (SBR)?
If the SBR equipped with a “stabilizing brace” is registered by May 31, 2023, the possessor is allowed to adopt the markings on the firearm. The maker’s marking exception is only applicable to firearms that are registered pursuant to the final rule. If the firearm is a personally made firearm, the possessor must mark in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 & 479.102 prior to submitting the E-Form 1.

 

[dogtown tom]

Yes the MAKER of the SBR needs to have their name and location engraved on the receiver. MAKER can be individual or TRUST as listed on the from you filed with ATF.

Not true for the reasons posted above.

 

[Styx]

Form 1's filed under the forbearance for pistols with arm braces are not required to have any makers engravings.
There shouldn't be any conflicting information because ATF has had this on their website for months:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/onc...k-firearm-i-manufactured-short-barreled-rifle

Thank you

 

[MachIVshooter]

If not a "personally made firearm" and registered with a brace during the forbearance, ATF has given an exemption on marking requirements.

*I still find the exemption dubious, as ATF really doesn't have the authority to waive a statutory requirement.

If it wasn't a production receiver with a brace registered during the forbearance, it must be marked in accordance with 27 C.F.R., but you do not have to engrave the receiver. Most people do, but you can engrave any metallic part, as long as that engraving meets the size & depth requirements and is present and easily visible when assembled as an SBR.

 

[dogtown tom]

If not a "personally made firearm" and registered with a brace during the forbearance, ATF has given an exemption on marking requirements.

*I still find the exemption dubious, as ATF really doesn't have the authority to waive a statutory requirement.

ATF didn't waive the requirement, "the Secretary" did. He also waived the $200 tax. ("the Secretary" being the Attorney General)

If it wasn't a production receiver with a brace registered during the forbearance, it must be marked in accordance with 27 C.F.R., but you do not have to engrave the receiver. Most people do, but you can engrave any metallic part, as long as that engraving meets the size & depth requirements and is present and easily visible when assembled as an SBR.

No longer true.
2021R-05F, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms changed the marking requirements.https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver

 

[MachIVshooter]

No longer true.
2021R-05F, Definition of “Frame or Receiver” and Identification of Firearms changed the marking requirements.https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver

Has to do with "personally made firearms" where non-licensees are concerned, not the additional maker markings on a Form 1 NFA weapon made from an existing serialized firearm.

2021R-05F was also vacated by a federal judge last week.

 

[Styx]

Has to do with "personally made firearms" where non-licensees are concerned, not the additional maker markings on a Form 1 NFA weapon made from an existing serialized firearm.

2021R-05F was also vacated by a federal judge last week.

Many may not know that it was thrown out as whenever someone has attempted to posted about it, their thread has been promptly closed.

 

[dogtown tom]

Has to do with "personally made firearms" where non-licensees are concerned, not the additional maker markings on a Form 1 NFA weapon made from an existing serialized firearm.

No sir.
"Makers" must engrave their name and the location where the NFA firearm was made on the receiver or frame only.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-479/subpart-G

§ 479.102 Identification of firearms.

(a) Identification required. Except as otherwise provided in this section, you, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) Serial number, name, place of business. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or otherwise placed on the frame or receiver thereof, an individual serial number, in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The serial number must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. The frame or receiver must also be marked with either: Your name (or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where you as a manufacturer or importer maintain your place of business, or in the case of a maker, where you made the firearm; or if a manufacturer or importer, your name (or recognized abbreviation) and the serial number that begins with your abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., “12345678-[unique identification number]”; and

The only markings that are not required to be placed on a frame or receiver are covered here:

(2) Model, caliber or gauge, foreign manufacturer, country of manufacture. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver, or barrel or pistol slide (if applicable) thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The additional information shall include:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) When applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; and

(iv) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

2021R-05F was also vacated by a federal judge last week.

You think?
It's only applicable to the 5th Circuit (Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi).
Given that it likely to be appealed, anyone in those states who doesn't understand that this isn't settled is a fool.

And if you don't live in Texas, Louisiana or Mississippi.........it doesn't apply to you and you damned well better know that.

 

[Styx]

You think?
It's only applicable to the 5th Circuit (Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi).
Given that it likely to be appealed, anyone in those states who doesn't understand that this isn't settled is a fool.

And if you don't live in Texas, Louisiana or Mississippi.........it doesn't apply to you and you damned well better know that.

I thought that too at first but it applies countrywide. It may or may not be overturned on appeal, but as of right now, Biden and the ATF's "Ghost Gun" rule change is dead.

 

[dogtown tom]

I thought that too at first but it applies countrywide. It may or may not be overturned on appeal, but as of right now, Biden and the ATF's "Ghost Gun" rule change is dead.

Says who?

 

[Styx]

Says who?

FPC and other gun rights groups, major news organizations, and the websites that sell 80% lower recievers some of which have already started reselling the items that the ATF's ghost gun prohibited.

 

[dogtown tom]

Many may not know that it was thrown out as whenever someone has attempted to posted about it, their thread has been promptly closed.

That thread was closed because it was a "drive by", not because of the subject.

In the last year there have been an increasing number of posts that are links to YouTube content with no real commentary or opinion by the person posting the link.
Thats a "drive by" and is annoying and lazy.

 

[Styx]

That thread was closed because it was a "drive by", not because of the subject.

In the last year there have been an increasing number of posts that are links to YouTube content with no real commentary or opinion by the person posting the link.
Thats a "drive by" and is annoying and lazy.

I don't recall saying the threads were closed because of the subject???? My point is that the threads posted about the topic thus far have been promptly closed, so many here might not know the that the ban was thrown out. I didn't make an argument either way on my opinions about whether they should have been closed or not.

 

[dogtown tom]

FPC and other gun rights groups, major news organizations, and the websites that sell 80% lower recievers some of which have already started reselling the items that the ATF's ghost gun prohibited.

Oh please........"news articles" and websites aren't cites. NOWHERE on FPC's website does it state this ruling applies nationwide.


Please show me where a Federal Circuit Court decision applies outside of that circuit. May the Lord help us all if that's possible, as the 9th Circuit is slightly more hostile to gun rights than the 5th.

 

[Styx]

Oh please........"news articles" and websites aren't cites. NOWHERE on FPC's website does it state this ruling applies nationwide.


Please show me where a Federal Circuit Court decision applies outside of that circuit. May the Lord help us all if that's possible, as the 9th Circuit is slightly more hostile to gun rights than the 5th.

It is possible, the entire rule change was thrown out, and everyone else is getting it wrong. Everyone states including those who sell them that the entire rule has been thrown out. No one anywhere other than you have stared it only apply to the 5th Circuit thus far.

Universal Vacatur:

Many lower federal courts hold that section 706(2) of the Administrative Procedure Act, 5 U.S.C. § 706(2), instructs courts reviewing agency regulations to vacate regulations that are unlawful as defined by that provision. Vacatur as the courts understand it is distinct from injunctions against enforcement proceedings and declaratory judgments. Unlike remedies that operate with respect to parties and parties’ rights, vacatur operates on regulations as such, depriving them of legal force. That feature makes vacatur an inherently universal or nationwide remedy. Lower courts issued orders purporting to vacate rules in two prominent recent cases, Health Freedom Defense Fund v. Biden, the mask mandate case, and United States v. Texas, an immigration enforcement policy case that was recently argued before the Supreme Court .

https://www.yalejreg.com/bulletin/vacatur-of-rules-under-the-administrative-procedure-act/

 

[MachIVshooter]

No sir.
"Makers" must engrave their name and the location where the NFA firearm was made on the receiver or frame only.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-479/subpart-G

Well, that's crappy, forcing Form 1 makers to bear the NFA engraving regardless of whether or not it's in an NFA configuration. Did they make amendments in the last year and change? I hadn't reviewed it recently, as it really didn't change a thing for us, we've always marked our cans on the tube and F2 registered SBRs, SBSs & MGs using existing receivers on the serialized receiver, but I don't recall makers using existing serialized production firearms being required to put name and location on the receiver when they published it last April

 

[dogtown tom]

Well, that's crappy, forcing Form 1 makers to bear the NFA engraving regardless of whether or not it's in an NFA configuration.

That's always been a requirement. Previously regs allowed placing the makers markings on the barrel. Thats no longer an option.

The rule does not require makers to go back in time and remark their Form 1 firearm to meet the current regulation.

Did they make amendments in the last year and change?

No.
Under the forbearance for "pistols with an arm brace", they specifically did not require makers markings via the rule.

I hadn't reviewed it recently, as it really didn't change a thing for us, we've always marked our cans on the tube and F2 registered SBRs, SBSs & MGs using existing receivers on the serialized receiver, but I don't recall makers using existing serialized production firearms being required to put name and location on the receiver when they published it last April

I think the impetus was issues with multiple manufacturers names and locations on a firearm. Being that LE is easily confused by one manufacturer/model/serial#/etc, having me mark "Hart Sports, Plano, TX" on an SBR I assemble from an existing Colt AR is a little silly.

ATF agreed and amended the regulation to allow this:

§ 479.102 Identification of firearms.
(3) Adoption of identifying markings. You may adopt existing markings and are not required to mark a serial number or other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm in accordance with this section, as follows:

(i) Newly manufactured firearms. Manufacturers may adopt the serial number and other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm by another manufacturer provided the firearm has not been sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of to a person other than a qualified manufacturer, importer, or dealer, and the serial number adopted is not duplicated on any other firearm.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I think the impetus was issues with multiple manufacturers names and locations on a firearm. Being that LE is easily confused by one manufacturer/model/serial#/etc, having me mark "Hart Sports, Plano, TX" on an SBR I assemble from an existing Colt AR is a little silly.

ATF agreed and amended the regulation to allow this:

§ 479.102 Identification of firearms.
(3) Adoption of identifying markings. You may adopt existing markings and are not required to mark a serial number or other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm in accordance with this section, as follows:

(i) Newly manufactured firearms. Manufacturers may adopt the serial number and other identifying markings previously placed on a firearm by another manufacturer provided the firearm has not been sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of to a person other than a qualified manufacturer, importer, or dealer, and the serial number adopted is not duplicated on any other firearm.

Yeah, that aspect is definitely an improvement which will give the cleaner aesthetics of a factory SBR. We don't make very many NFA weapons using existing receivers, though, and they're all demo hosts that aren't for sale.

I do find it odd that the rule now gives the option of engraving with city & state or using a S/N with your abbreviated FFL# as a prefix. I wonder if anyone will actually do the latter. We don't intend to change, as we prefer to have the city & state denoted, and all of our S/N prefixes are indicative of the type of suppressor or firearm.