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EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Snejdarek, Dec 16, 2016.

?

Between Czech and Swiss model, which one do you consider better?

  1. Switzerland: generally easier access to firearms, but forget concealed carry

  2. Czech Republic: higher innitial hurdle - must gain license first, but shall issue concealed carry

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  1. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    As the EU is about to enact the #EUGunBan and the Czech Republic will have general elections in 2017, Social Democratic Party (currently leading government coalition) has just announced that they will propose a constitutional amendment that shall protect the right to be armed.

    The proposed wording is clearly aimed at preserving the status quo in the country (firearms are accessible after gaining shall issue license first).

    "Občané ČR mají právo nabývat, držet a nosit zbraně a střelivo za účelem ochrany životů, zdraví a majetkových hodnot a podílet se tak na zajišťování vnitřního pořádku a bezpečnosti a ochraně územní celistvosti, svrchovanosti a demokratických základů ČR. Podmínky a podrobnosti stanoví zákon."

    "Citizens of the Czech Republic have the right to acquire, possess and carry firearms and ammunition for the purpose of protection of life, health and property and thus participate in the provision of internal order and security as well as of territorial integrity, sovereignty and democratic order of the Czech Republic. Terms and conditions shall be determined by a law. "

    Thanks to the EU, for the first time in history, gun laws will most probably become a major election issue.

    Proarms_Armory_gun_shop_in_Prague.jpg

    Here is my personal take on this:

    3.75% of adult population are legal gun owners
    2.75% of population have concealed carry license (US had less until 2010; this year the number significantly grew but we don't have any statistic yet)

    While in most of Europe, gun ownership may be understood with individual bounds - as sporting/hunting tools, here vast majority of gun owners own their firearms for self defense. I.e. they are understood as a family tool of safety (i.e. often a single family member has the license, but everyone has access to it within the household or understand guns as such).

    Also given that they are safety tools rather than hobby tools, the attitude to their possible ban is very different. The Dutch pretty fXXXXd up with their proposal that would lead to ban of all semi-autos, so not only those affected by actual new directive (now aiming at "black guns"), but also most other gun owners got concerned.

    I'll go on a limb and say that only 50% of gun owners feel strongly to the extent it will be single issue election for them. Meanwhile I'd say the same about 90% of CC holders (1). So we arrive at some 3.2% of population. Each one of them will directly influence at least 3 other people in the election, and at least half of them will go berserk and ask every and anyone close to them to support gun right vote (if not particular party, then at least choose the most pro-gun from those acceptable - Czech Republic is very, very far from US two party politics).

    That makes 10% of electorate. Typical elections have about 60% turnout, however this 10% will have much higher motivation. And thus I arrive at 15 - 25% of electorate choosing based on the gun ticket.

    Meanwhile the migration crisis made headlines like the one about the Dutch girl who got prosecuted for pepper spraying a migrant that tried to rape her. Headlines like this made it the first time I had people coming to me and asking me about the extent of gun rights in different EU countries, and a lot of general population simply being dumbstruck by the fact that in most of EU people are by law barred from exercising effective self defense. There may be only 2.75% CC license holders, but relative to other EU countries there is huge rate of people who carry pepper sprays/zappers and/or knives for self defense, and only now they realized they can't take it for granted. All these people can be played well during elections, and none of their votes can be won by gun control.

    ČSSD has now realized that they can't compete with ANO in general, they need to talk to concrete parts of society to win their vote. It is clear from recent statements that they chose the pensioners and unions and now - with the constitutional amendment - gun owners. There are only two ways for them to go forward - either play it all along and win their votes or lose them all.

    (1) The past two months are the first time in about 16 months that you can buy vz.58 without having to sign up on a waiting list to get on a waiting list (I am not kidding, this is what several shops offered to me in April stating that their standard waiting lists are full). AR-15 - PAR MK3 still has waiting times of several months as do VAR rifles (I am not sure about LUVO) and the only foreign semi-auto rifles in stock are above 45.000 CZK mark. Pistol and revolver sales were also through the roof. Normal gun sales are 15K per year, 2015 were 50K and I suppose that 2016 will top that. CC license application were so high that waiting times for exam got from two weeks to half a year (now they are back to a month but not due to low demand, but due to tripling of exam dates).
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  2. Bohemus

    Bohemus Member

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    I was right about to post it here (as i did somewhere else) but your post is as always more elaborate and less czenglish;)
     
  3. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Even in my most positive drive moment I could not imagine that the amendment that was first flouted yesterday in the morning will be officially lodged by the evening.

    https://apps.odok.cz/veklep-detail?pid=KORNAGNGZSFW

    Not only is it sponsored by the Ministry of Interior, but they even use the exact same language and approach as the EU Commission to the EU Gun Ban proposal - saying it is necessary reaction to "development of security situation" and thus shortening time for debate on the proposal.

    It is almost as if Social Democrats decided to give it to gun owners as a Christmas present.
     
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  4. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    I see you like my wikipedia stats as well as my GF's pic :) Good for ya!
     
  5. Radagast
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    Radagast Member

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    That unfortunately means its nullified at the moment of creation.

    The English Bill of Rights of 1688 is still law there and in much of the Commonwealth. Because of its wording it can effectively be repealed by legislation:
    That's from a current Australian legislation data base. The only people allowed to exercise their right to be armed are the Police, who are specifically exempted from the various Firearms Acts. They carry under their common law right to be armed for self defense.

    Ditto the Illinois RKBA clause.
    Politicians will always weazle-word to get elected.
     
  6. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Well the proposal aims at securing status quo on firearms in the country which is currently under threat by the EU institutions. There is absolute social acceptance of the status quo - gun laws are never politicized and never election topic, simply because both general public as well as gun owners are happy enough.

    While I agree with you in general, given how fervent the Czech Constitutional Court is in protecting constitutional rights, the fact that up to 25% of lawmakers have CC license and general acceptance of current Gun Act, I am not particularly worried.

    What really warms my heart is that the entire proposal is drafted with maintaining collision course with EU:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic#2016_Constitutional_Amendment_Proposal

    BTW, this is by far my most favorite beer, cheers to your nick, mate.

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Radagast
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    Radagast Member

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    After 20 years of fighting the pro gun fight I am very cynical of the promises that politicians make. That said, I wish you the best of luck. Sticking a cork in the bottle of the EU genie is a good idea. Once its out you will never put it back in.
     
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  8. Squire Western

    Squire Western member

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    I voted for the Czech Republic model on the poll. An easy choice.
     
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  9. JN01

    JN01 Member

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    Nothing is perfect, but it sounds like a great start to protecting your rights. Good luck.
     
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  10. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    What's funny about any bill of rights, is that by definition the practical implications will be "determined by a law." A law bound by the bill of rights. ;)

    What'd be nice, here, and perhaps already is depending on translation/context of the exact language used, is a stipulation that said laws governing the RKBA be determined by the Czech Republic (as opposed to external treaties or bodies like the EU)

    The real impact will be seen in a decade or so; a bill of rights only matters when it is respected by a generation of courts, in opposition to the short-sighted desires of legislators.

    TCB
     
  11. Bohemus

    Bohemus Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2016
  12. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    *whistles* You weren't kidding, Bohemus;
    So, they're out to ban all semi-auto firearms (if they get ARs and AKs, there is literally nothing stopping them from banning the remaining models available), and legally treating guns that have been deactivated by destruction, as guns (this is either a legal paradox, or more likely, a broad sweeping ban on firearms parts commerce). The first punch is banning everything that isn't a Browning BAR hunting rifle or using a neutered 10 round magazine, though it appears Browning Hi Powers will still be allowed for the time being.

    The gloves are off now, euros; whatcha gonna do 'bout it?

    Your nation has like 3% weapon carriers, and like 5% registered gun owners, right? That's what I'd be worried about, because those are the numbers your politicians base their decisions around. Either that, or you've managed to cultivate honest politicians for the first time in human history.

    TCB
     
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  13. 230RN
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    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    Agreed, but I take issue with the conception of the word "right" in both proposals and in the posts here. It's still just a mere "privilege" the way it's being used in this thread.

    Let's keep that straight, shall we?

    Terry, 230RN
     
  14. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    Well I understand right as something I can reach through court decision in case government tries to deny it to me. Which is the way things are in my country, albeit the fact that there I need to fulfill certain criteria first in order to enjoy that right.

    It seems that there quite a few places in US where 2A is not worth the paper it is written on, so fighting about the terminology seems a bit futile.
     
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  15. 230RN
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    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    I just like to keep the distinction clear.
    Sorry, that makes it a privilege. However, I agree that certain legal and political authorities in the U.S. muddle that one up.

    It's the abuse of the right that should be a matter of law, not the right itself.

    I'm done here for now. Let it rest.

    Terry, 230RN
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
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  16. RoscoeBryant

    RoscoeBryant Member

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    I would like to point out about that is: laws governing the RKBA in the EU already have to be decided on by the individual parlaments or governments, the EU can not decide them. The problem is, the EU can sign a so called "directive" (which is the case with the current gun ban/firearm restrictions), which does not have the force of a law on individual citizens, but it does force the individual countries to pass laws accordingly.
    If a country does not do this (or if a countries supreme court rules a certain law to be unconstitutional), you end up in a very funny situation where a country has to sign something into law but can not do it. This sutiation usually is solved by some form of agreement between the EU and the single country, but there is no "official" way to deal with it. I really hope, the Czech Republic does not fold to the pressure on this topic, there sadly is not much resistance left (if there was any in the first place) against this stupid directive
     
  17. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    At least in classical liberal (i.e. founding American/Enlightenment) philosophy, what you describe is recognition of your rights by the government (which includes courts as well as lawmakers; so long as free exercise is upheld in the end, the right is recognized). This is the practical reality under which we all labor, and is not necessarily ideal or even acceptable. The right itself is seen as independent of government, "God-given" and/or intrinsic to the quality of life of all humans. This belief allows the citizens or even individuals to see a government that does not recognize their rights as illegitimate, and deserving of alteration or overthrow. Considering the opponent was a King with the supposed 'divine right' of God Himself behind the throne, it was thought that anyone who would rebel should have sufficient justification (such as that King going against God's will in violating human rights). Sounds rather silly to many modern Americans that we would need an independent belief system to realize we have human rights, but in many, many, many parts of the world (in fact, all of them at the time of our independence), you have tyranny spanning multiple generations and a citizenry that no longer has (or never had) even the concept of freedom.* These same modern Americans often impugn us for 'worshiping' our Constitution and other founding documents as 'sacred,' but the fact is that substantial portions of them (The Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and entire Bill of Rights, notably) are Enlightenment manifestos laying out the philosophical reasons the proposed governing system fits within those ideals. So in a way we are 'worshiping,' but instead of a God or State, our human rights, as far as holding them to be sacred and inviolable, in keeping with a philosophy laid out in ancient texts.

    TCB

    *I once saw an interview of a subsistence farmer in Pakistan while Pervez Musharef was being ousted; the journalist asked if he had any opinion on who should be his next leader, and the guy said he had none. She then asked if he were president if there were any policies/etc. he would want; the guy looked at her like she had two heads, gave a confused chuckle, and said "no." It was painfully apparent the guy had never once even considered having any say in his leadership (I know Pakistan is nominally democratic, but the rural boonies this guy lived in are historically unrepresented/ignored by the urban government)
     
  18. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    That's kind of my point; under that scenario, the inability of the Czechs to legally pass the 'required' law demanded by the Euros, would result in either:
    -Negotiation with the EU to maintain their rights (i.e. 'representation' within that body to protect civil rights, the goal of any republic)
    -Withdrawal from the EU organization so as to maintain their rights (i.e. secession from an oppressive system without representation that respects civil rights)
    -Compliance with the EU so as to maintain membership (i.e. betrayal of the citizens by their representatives, at which point popular revolt against both systems becomes increasingly justified so as to reclaim protection of civil rights)

    Regardless of what happens, so long as the Czech people agree they should have a RKBA, they will, come hell or high water. That's all our Bill of Rights is; a list of the primary rights the states all agreed had better not be violated if the federal government wanted to continue existing with their support. It agreed, because it was weak and needed the states, then naturally set to strengthening itself almost immediately so one day it would not. The EU, and all coalition governments, follow a similar dynamic ("we're just a common trade zone organization"..."now we're demanding your nation pass gun control laws in conflict with your local constitution & peoples' wishes, or face our wrath")

    TCB
     
  19. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    That is what the proposed amendment of constitution is about. Giving individual firearms ownership national security dimension, as national security falls outside of scope of European Union Law.
     
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  20. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    So Trilogue on EU Gun Ban ended and the EU Gun Ban moves forward towards vote in the EU Parliament and Council. The trilogue vote in the EU Council was as follows:
    AGAINST: Czech Republic (+ Luxembourg on grounds that the Ban doesn't go far enough)
    ABSTENTIONS: Austria, Switzerland (which was invited despite not having the right to vote)
    FOR: all remaining countries (including Poland)
     
  21. 230RN
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    230RN Marines raising the left-leaning Pisa tower.

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    You don't need to refer to any divine right to establish the right to keep and bear arms.

    The right exists in nature itself throughout both the plant and animal kingdoms. Every creature has some defense mechanism it carries around with it every day of its life.

    In short, even kittens carry concealed weapons.

    But humans are only limited in this right by someone who has more and better weapons, and have transformed it into a mere privilege.

    Terry, 230RN
     
  22. everydefense

    everydefense Member

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    Da[ng]... that's rough. It seems the Czechs are the only ones willing to stand up for their RKBA. Even Poland chose not to stand with them. Very sad.

    Do you think that Poland might've folded to political pressure and voted "For" to avoid being blacklisted by the countries favoring stronger gun control?
     
  23. RoscoeBryant

    RoscoeBryant Member

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    My countries representatives took the cowards way out - if your are against something, why not vote against it? What is the use of abstaining your vote?
    Thanks to the Czech Republic for taking a stand and not chicken out. If the directive gets implemented, I sure hope they give the EU a hard time about it, and the constitutional amendment is certianly a step in the right direction!

    @everydefense There certainly is a lot of pressure put on the countries to follow the comissions proposal, but I think sadly for many representatives it is just not that big of a topic. In very few european countries, RKBA is a topic you can win votes with, therefore many politicians simply don't care about it.
     
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  24. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Sure looks a lot like a majority of wolves voting to eat the sheep, there...
     
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  25. Squire Western

    Squire Western member

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    True. It's Europe. It hasn't changed since Rome fell in 476 AD.
     
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