EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

Between Czech and Swiss model, which one do you consider better?

  • Switzerland: generally easier access to firearms, but forget concealed carry

  • Czech Republic: higher innitial hurdle - must gain license first, but shall issue concealed carry


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Hope you don't mind me putting in some information on what's happening in Switzerland.

Some context for our American mates:

- Switzerland is not in the EU, but they have over 200 bilateral treaties with EU in a number of fields that allow them near-same access to the EU single market
- One of those treaties is also Schengen treaty, which forms an area without formal internal border control in Europe. Non-EU countries can join Schengen treaty but by doing so they must agree to adopt EU law in a number of fields. In this case also the EU Gun Ban which was formally adopted as a Single Market Measure (i.e. a law to allow easier crossborder purchases of firearms) as there were doubts whether EU can legislate it as a safety measure (safety is generally considered as national power, not EU).

- Swiss government was invited to the process of preparation of the EU Gun Ban. In the preparatory phase, Swiss government was actually supporting the EU Gun Ban, which left the participating Czech government representatives quite puzzled.
- Swiss government asked for some special Swiss exemption with the reasoning that they need to show something at home to avoid being defeated in referendum.
- The Swiss exemption is total BS. It basically says that militia is exempted... if they fulfill all the egregious requirements for sport shooters.
- To make it even worse for the Swiss government, the Czech suit for annulment of the EU Gun Ban targets the Swiss exemption (among 4 other things). The exemption may be used only in countries with over 50 years of militia system, so it is clearly discriminatory towards countries that were under communist dictatorship until 1990. This part of the suit actually has high chances of success.
- Swiss referendum is expected to take place in May 2019, which is right about time that we expect decision of the EU court regardig the Czech suit. I guess now we can rest knowing that they will not decide before the Swiss to avoid feeding the Swiss pro-referendum folk.

In the Czech debate, we sometimes use Swiss as example that there are more countries opposing the EU Gun Ban, it is not just that we are outliers - in order to gather support of wider non-gun public. As far as I can tell Swiss are avoiding mentioning of the resistance in the Czech Republic. I even offered them cooperation on information exchange but never heard back.
 
In a strange twist, the Czech Republic has announced that the country has implemented most of the new obligations imposed by the EU Gun Ban Directive. In a true Czech fashion, the government sent official note to Brussels stating that there were 36 various implementation measures undertaken between 2000 and 2017 which implement various obligations set in the Directive.

Surely, the part of the Directive that actually bans possession of certain firearms was not implemented, but that didn't stop the resourceful Czech officials to comb the directive article by article and mark off each and every one that they deemed already fulfilled in the current Czech legislatory framework. The resulting outcome is that over 80% of obligations set by the Directive are already fulfilled.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/NIM/?uri=CELEX:32017L0853
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/NIM/?uri=CELEX:32017L0853

Taken from a purely statistical perspective, the Czech Republic has become a true model country when it comes to implementation of the Directive, far ahead of all other EU member states.

Meanwhile, speaker of the house announced that the law which was supposed to introduce the gun ban will be decked indefinitely. A completely new Firearms Act is being drafted. All in Brussels can rest assured that a full implementation will be announced once it is adopted.
 
Nothing new to report on the front of the fight for the Czech gun rights.

Just that you know, today we celebrate 100 years since independence from the Habsburg-German-Catholic occupation that started with genocidal anti-Czech war in 1620.

USA was among the first countries that recognized Czechoslovak independence. Woodrow Wilson supported Czech/oslovak fight for independence throughout WW1 and that is also why you can find his statue on the Wilsone Av just opposite to the Prague main train station, basically the main public transportation hub of the country.

Replika.Woodrow.Wilson.pomnik.celek.jpg

A little known fact: while Czech/oslovak independence was formally announced in 1918, independent Czechoslovak army consisting of Czech (92%) and Slovak (8%) defectors from Austrian-Hungarian army was established already in 1916. This even became main reason why Hitler never allowed Czechs to establish subject forces / serve in German army, as he expected that they would simply defect along with all the equipment same as inthe WW1. Meanwhile most other occupied nations could serve the German war effort directly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Legion
 
Snejdarek: Your last comment reminded me that Hungarian and Romanian forces served with the German Wehrmacht in WW2. I realize that it was much more complicated than this (regular forces vs. SS etc).

Regarding the Czech govt's strong support of concealed carry and other gun ownership..... Rights--natural rights, not a privilege allowed by a govt.--...... which can't be decided by the modern Habsburg Empire (so to speak) in Brussels, is there a fair chance that such self-dettermination will encourage other countries to also resist Brussel's brainless Royalty?
 
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is there a fair chance that such self-dettermination will encourage other countries to also resist Brussel's brainless Royalty

Guns are non-issue outside of the Czech Republic and Switzerland. And we are yet to see where the Swiss stand as their Parliament bowed down to Brussels and people will have their say in referendum in May 2019 (if they even get enough signatures for that). I believe that this actually shows Brussels that they can try their hand much harder next time given that only Czechs are concerned when it comes to illegitimate gun restrictions. Possibly finding a specific solution for Czechs and go after all other.

RIght now the main issue of contest as regards EU are obligatory migrant quota. See here: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-czech-republic-hungary-and-poland-over-low-refugee-intake/a-41691870
 
Guns are non-issue outside of the Czech Republic and Switzerland. And we are yet to see where the Swiss stand as their Parliament bowed down to Brussels and people will have their say in referendum in May 2019 (if they even get enough signatures for that). I believe that this actually shows Brussels that they can try their hand much harder next time given that only Czechs are concerned when it comes to illegitimate gun restrictions. Possibly finding a specific solution for Czechs and go after all other.

RIght now the main issue of contest as regards EU are obligatory migrant quota. See here: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-czech-republic-hungary-and-poland-over-low-refugee-intake/a-41691870

Even in article about Europe George Soros name comes up.
 
Could you elaborate? I suppose you have had a number of conversations on the topic.
They pointed to the fact that optional referendums challenging federal laws usually fail. Also that the 2011 gun control vote that failed was a popular initiative, not a challenge to a federal law. Also fears for the implications that rejecting the EU gunban would have for Schengen. Of course the pro-gun parties, which naturally lean right, hold the belief that Switzerland never should have joined Schengen in the first place.
 
UPDATE

Following the Senate elections (1/3 of seats challenged) that were won by ODS, most pro-gun party, today's vote of new Senate Speaker elevated ODS's to the post Jaroslav Kuber. Kubera has supported gun rights in the elections, however he was missing during the last year's Senate vote on the constitutional amendment.

In any case, former speaker was anti-gun, so this is a welcome change.

Everything points out to conclusion that the wind is blowing in the righ direction for the constitutional change, however it is just a light breeze now with no storm in sight.
 
Nothing new to report, so here are just some pictures of Czech first lady sending some lead down a military sniper training range in Israel during Czech President's recent visit that included opening of "Czech House" in Jerusalem.

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FIT?_sig=M3njNsldqvx2Y6u7ZCjUiu3oXNcmNVAoJu4InyCtlxw.jpg

FIT?_sig=RnhBjpbadx5QIzt7tqKTRtIjpj9FJjDjM9bG1SrjpWc.jpg

FIT?_sig=je0kPgO6z9Ybd_H3pMrZRWNJ0znePghP9H1UI6OXRj0.jpg

Ivana Zemanová is also a concealed carry license holder and CCs a revolver. President often jokes that she is the best member of his security detail.
 
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UPDATE

Ministry of Interior published first draft of proposal for a completely new Firearms Act. Apart from implementing the EU Gun Ban, the Act - if adopted in its current form, which is by far not a sure thing - would be quite a step forward in several important directions. For example:
  • the current 10 years long gun licenses would be decked in favor of lifelong "firearms authorizations". Holder would still need to submit approval of general practitioner every 5 years + have backgroundcheck done on him every 5 years (by police automatically, no actual involvement of the holder) + present registered firearms every 10 years for a periodical check. However the fact that holders would not need to formally ask for issuing of new license means that the system is less prone to abuse in a way we could see in Brazil or Germany, where renewals have led to denials and confiscations of firearms (in case of Germany - as regards concealed carry licenses, which fell by about half in past 5 years).
  • silencers would be legalized (subject to registration)
  • night visions would be legalized (no registration)
  • hollow points would be legalized
  • along with throwing away most of the paperwork (no more physical "licenses" and "firearms registation cards") and change to more streamlined online and electronic system, most of fees would be either dropped or significantly diminished
As regards implementation of the EU Gun Ban, let's just say that gun owners can be quite happy with the outcome (if approved in the current form). I will not discuss details in public forum. Also, warm greetings to any Brussels analyst that reads this part of the thread.
 
UPDATE

According to Czech Ministry of Interior ( http://www.ceska-justice.cz/2019/01...ultaci-pracovni-verzi-navrhu-zakona-zbranich/ ), first court session regarding the Czech suit against the EU Gun Ban ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#European_Court_of_Justice_challenge ) will take place in March. Therefore, they expect decision to be rendered in Q2 2019.

That means that the final decision is unlikely to take place before the Swiss referendum. Swiss referendum on Swiss law that introduces EU Gun Ban in the country will thus take place BEFORE the court's decision. This is important for three reasons:

  • Even if the court annuls some parts of the EU Gun Ban, in case the referendum fails, Swiss will alread have the EU Gun Ban as part of their national legislation.
  • One of four parts of the Czech suit is annulment of Swiss-specific excemption in the EU Gun Ban as discriminatory. This part actually has large chances of success. If the referendum fails based on the argument that they have special treatment of militia firearms - that very excemption may be annulled and Swiss would then have to change their laws again.
  • Outcome of the Court ruling can not be used as a valid argument in the referendum. Referendum will thus be akin to driving a car with eyes closed.
 
Guns are non-issue outside of the Czech Republic and Switzerland.
Guns are a non-issue in Greece because the people that want guns simply ignore the restrictive laws. Even the police estimate that there are 250,000 Kalashnikovs floating around the country in private hands.

Europe is not homogeneous when it comes to respect for laws. It seems that people are more fastidiously law-abiding the further north and west you go. Conversely, they are more skeptical of government (and therefore less law-abiding) the further south and east you go. A lot of this is based on recent -- and not so recent -- historical experience.
 
Guns are a non-issue in Greece because the people that want guns simply ignore the restrictive laws.
It's not hard to possess a firearm illegally. Many otherwise law abiding citizens do as well as a huge number of criminals. Even if you have committed a crime, you won't be arrested unless you come to the attention of the police and that's unlikely if you behave sensibly. The problem arises when you have to use your firearm to, for example, fight off a home invader. What happens to the Greek owner of an illegal gun, then?
 
It's not hard to possess a firearm illegally. Many otherwise law abiding citizens do as well as a huge number of criminals. Even if you have committed a crime, you won't be arrested unless you come to the attention of the police and that's unlikely if you behave sensibly. The problem arises when you have to use your firearm to, for example, fight off a home invader. What happens to the Greek owner of an illegal gun, then?
Occasionally, some Greek gun owner gets careless and, for one reason or another, is caught. Typically, these incidents are played up by the sensationalist media, even though they really don't amount to anything. Just today, a 53-year-old from Volos was found to have a "complete arsenal" in his home. https://www.protothema.gr/greece/ar...nos-ekruve-sto-spiti-tou-olokliro-oplostasio/ (It doesn't matter if you don't read Greek -- just look at the picture.) By American standards, this would be a big nothing. He's going to get a slap on the wrist after the publicity dies down. Meanwhile, the guys with serious guns, like AK-47's, go on their merry way.
 
You Greeks are lucky that your disrespect of law is combined with inefficient law enforcement.
Greek police can be efficient when they want to be. It appears that many of them are deliberately turning a blind eye to gun violations, especially in areas that have a traditional gun culture, such as Crete. How else can you explain the official police estimate of 250,000 Kalashnikovs in the country, while there is no coordinated effort to round them up?

The Greek experience could be an exemplar of what would happen in the United States, if draconian gun confiscation was ever passed. There would be resistance, not only among the public, but also to some degree at an official level.
 
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The campaign against the adoption of the EU Gun Ban in Switzerland has delivered 125,000 signatures calling for a referendum. This is 75,000 more than is required to trigger such a referendum. I think the referendum will be held in around 4 months time.
 
I am curious about the gun laws in Greece and what are the hoops Greeks have to jump through to get firearms and what firearms are permitted. Also how will the European Firearms Directive lead to changes in Greek gun laws?

As an American, I have always heard of Greek gun laws being so strict that virtually no one is allowed a firearm apart from police, military and politicians hence my curiosity.
 
I am curious about the gun laws in Greece and what are the hoops Greeks have to jump through to get firearms and what firearms are permitted. Also how will the European Firearms Directive lead to changes in Greek gun laws?

As an American, I have always heard of Greek gun laws being so strict that virtually no one is allowed a firearm apart from police, military and politicians hence my curiosity.
In a nutshell, shotguns are permitted (ostensibly for hunting), rifles (including bolt-action rifles) are flatly prohibited, and handguns can be licensed on a strict provable-need basis. It goes without saying that full automatics are prohibited. (As a side note, outgoing Ministers of Defense are typically presented with a submachine gun or selective-fire rifle to take home with them. But, this was an empty gesture in the cases of a couple of former Ministers of Defense, since they are now in prison for corruption.)

Outside of this framework, certain guns can be owned for competitions, on a strictly regulated basis.

The following blog entry is a pretty good rundown of the details:
https://ezine.m1911.org/showthread.php?173-International-Focus-Greece

The key thing to remember about Greece is that, despite the formal framework described above, there is a lot of underground gun ownership. The rules really are so strict, that people so inclined don't bother to comply.

The European Firearms Directive will have no effect on Greece, since the Greek rules are already stricter than what the EU is demanding. That is, the formal rules. But the formal rules have little relation to what actually goes on.
 
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