EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

Between Czech and Swiss model, which one do you consider better?

  • Switzerland: generally easier access to firearms, but forget concealed carry

  • Czech Republic: higher innitial hurdle - must gain license first, but shall issue concealed carry


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Centralised power, slavery, welfare state, elites interested only in wealth and accumulation of power, barbarians crossing the borders. Professional military replacing the citizen soldier, followed by starving it of funds, then use of foreign auxillaries. The Huns moving in the east and the Nomads in the South.
Time to break out Gibbon to see what happens next.

Good luch to our Czech friends, they will need it.
 
Do you think that Poland might've folded to political pressure and voted "For" to avoid being blacklisted by the countries favoring stronger gun control?
Poland is now in situation of both mass protests as well as international scrutiny due to the current government's reforms as well as practical steps (last week, during Parliamentary vote on state budget, opposition members of parliament were not allowed into the voting room).

So pressure over gun control is the least of their worries. I do believe that this was sincere vote from Poland - after all, Poland does have the lowest per capita firearm ownership in the EU. The fact that their laws are now changing towards more permissive is nice, however the lack of determined base as well as determined politicians sets the pace.
 
Thanks to the Czech Republic for taking a stand and not chicken out.

Here is Czech Annex to the vote: http://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/declaration-of-the-czech-republic-firearms.aspx

If the directive gets implemented, I sure hope they give the EU a hard time about it, and the constitutional amendment is certianly a step in the right direction!

Czech Republic has never taken EU Commission to the European Court of Justice (in general this happens about once a decade in total), which just changed last week OVER ALCOHOL: http://www.denik.cz/z_domova/cesko-zazaluje-evropskou-komisi-kvuli-denaturaci-lihu-20161219.html (Czech only, use google translate)

If the government sues over this I am confident they will sue over the Directive. Or, which is more probable, they will reach agreement with the Commission that EU will respect the new Constitutional Amendment that makes individual firearms possession national security issue (thus making it out of reach of EU law) - and Czechs will keep their firearms and concealed carry while everyone else including Austrians will be bound by the Directive.
 
True. It's Europe. It hasn't changed since Rome fell in 476 AD.

Well, that's been true ever since Og became the chief caveman. Well, until 1791 AD*. Then, of course, the post-1791 generation of Ogs have been working to curtail ("infringe on") that right.

Well I understand right as something I can reach through court decision in case government tries to deny it to me.

Ah, but you see, whatever action resulted in your having to go to court for any decision at all on the "right*" itself is an infringement on that right in the first place.**

See how that works? Or should work.

Terry, 230RN

* 1791 is the year the U.S. Constitution, including the Bill Of Rights, was fully ratified. We don't call it "The Bill Of Privileges," by the way.
** As opposed to legal action as a result of the abuse of that right.
 
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Here is Czech Annex to the vote: http://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/declaration-of-the-czech-republic-firearms.aspx



Czech Republic has never taken EU Commission to the European Court of Justice (in general this happens about once a decade in total), which just changed last week OVER ALCOHOL: http://www.denik.cz/z_domova/cesko-zazaluje-evropskou-komisi-kvuli-denaturaci-lihu-20161219.html (Czech only, use google translate)

If the government sues over this I am confident they will sue over the Directive. Or, which is more probable, they will reach agreement with the Commission that EU will respect the new Constitutional Amendment that makes individual firearms possession national security issue (thus making it out of reach of EU law) - and Czechs will keep their firearms and concealed carry while everyone else including Austrians will be bound by the Directive.


I fear, it will not be that easy for the Czech Republic either. While you certainly are correct, our weak politicians in Austria will do nothing to fight the directive and it will be implemented without objections (we will keep our firearms however...), I do not think the comission will back away completely from Czech Republic. Adopting firearms legislation is not optional but part of the schengen agreement, and while the EU certainly will agree to some exceptions, they will not agree to a complete exemption, if only as a power demonstration. Depending on the wording of the amendment and the courts interpretation of it, ther may or may not be a lot of room for interpretation.
The directive at the moment for example does not take away the right to own firearms from anyone, it "just" proposes some limits on what a person can own and the prerequisites for that.

I certainly would be glad for you, if you get a complete exemption (carring however would not be affected either way, becaus the directive does not prohibit a country from having there own issuing rules for carry permits), but I would not be so sure about that.
 
The directive at the moment for example does not take away the right to own firearms from anyone, it "just" proposes some limits on what a person can own and the prerequisites for that.

Which includes obligatory sport shooting club memberships and private sport shooting club endorsements in order to be eligible to purchase PDW. Both of these would be unconstitutional under current Czech Constitution.

And don't get me started on the magazine size restrictions...

I certainly would be glad for you, if you get a complete exemption (carring however would not be affected either way, becaus the directive does not prohibit a country from having there own issuing rules for carry permits), but I would not be so sure about that.

That is not completely true. If the new PDW rules are implemented, the only weapons available for CC will be pistols and revolvers. This will be a problem for average Jan who has a concrete threat against his life and decides pistol is not sufficient CC tool for his safety, but more importantly, for private security companies.

As a country which constantly protests Czech nuclear facilities Austria should have more understanding for our affinity to keeping PDWs/SBRs for protection of those (as well as private security by bank transports, or places that might become a target the way Charlie Hebdo did).
 
I really do not understand why you keep making snarky comments about Austria for things like these? It doesn't have anything to do with the directive, and just because I am an Austrian does not mean, I agree with everything (or anthing for that matter) my government does or says.

From that perspective your are right - naturally, what you can not own, you can not carry. But CC itself is not attacked in the directive, which is what I meant to say.
Obligatory membership in shooting clubs is also one of the last hopes gun owners have in Austria for fighting the directive, as requiring membership in any club is unlawful for the government (had our share of bad experiences with that in the 30s and 40s....). It will be interesting what the supreme court has to say about the matter.
 
Thanks for the interesting, thought provoking, and illuminating information on the EU situation. Most of us here would have no idea as to what's going on there otherwise. Hope the Czechs get to keep their rights!

I feel deprived that we are unable to see your no doubt beautiful gun toting GF. lol
 
I really do not understand why you keep making snarky comments about Austria for things like these? It doesn't have anything to do with the directive, and just because I am an Austrian does not mean, I agree with everything (or anything for that matter) my government does or says.

Sorry for roughing up your feelings. I meant it in totally neutral way. If Austria's main issue regarding relations with Czech Republic is security of our nuclear facilities, and Czech Republic explicitly said that the proposed directive will be detrimental to that, I would have expected Austria to jump on the wagon for this very issue if not for anything else.
 
Im sorry I misinterpreted your statements - english is not my native language (as you probably can tell), which can lead to some misunderstandings!
Yeah... Opposing nuclear facilities is mainly a publicity stunt for austrian politicians, as nuclear energy is very unpopular and you can easily pretend to "do something" if you speak out against it.
 
Im sorry I misinterpreted your statements - english is not my native language (as you probably can tell), which can lead to some misunderstandings!
Yeah... Opposing nuclear facilities is mainly a publicity stunt for austrian politicians, as nuclear energy is very unpopular and you can easily pretend to "do something" if you speak out against it.
No hard feeelings.

What are actual rules in Austria on CC? Can you CC "anything" or do you need special permit for a given CC gun?

I can CC any B category gun I possess. I only needed special paperwork in order to be able to carry my GF's guns (I still didn't figure out how to properly conceal her AR 15 on my body, but at least I can have it loaded in the trunk ;) ).
 
If you can obtain a permit (fairly easy until 2010, still doable until 2014, but very hard for "average joe" at the moment) you can carry whatever you want in the category you got the permit for - which usually is Category B. The permit just states, how many guns you can carry, not which. There also is no limit on how you can carry, so you do not have to conceal a gun. That being said, if you carry an AR openly in public you will certainly have the police called on you very quickly (so proper concealement is of interest ;) )´.
If you want to carry someone elses gun, you just should get some signature from the registered owner to avoid confusion with the police, but there are no laws on that. Do you have to file something with the police about that (and how would it work if you lend a gun just for range use?), or did you mean just some paperwork with your GF?

For police officers that law changed a bit as of today. They now automatically get a permit for off-duty carry (they could apply for one in the past, but it depended on their superior if they got it), but due to some very... knowledgeable... politicians have a restriction for "caliber smaller than 9mm". There are already a lot of discusisons going on as while it is clear what they intended, technically a .223 has a "smaller caliber" than 9mm ;)
 
Do you have to file something with the police about that (and how would it work if you lend a gun just for range use?), or did you mean just some paperwork with your GF?

Technically, I need CC permit for each cat B gun, but in reality it is covered by acquisition permit (it is "permit to acquire, possess and carry" - I would have to actually strike out "carry" if I would not want to have it, I wonder if anyone has ever done so), so no extra paperwork. For guns that are not mine I need to file up for the permit with police (strike out "acquire") and also file approval of the owner (15 minutes depending on how fast the cop is on the keyboard).

The problem with range use is that I can let anyone use cat B at the range (even if they don't have any license) but can't let them take it to the range, i.e. I would need to be there.

No open carry unless you are going hunting or have a special permit for special occasion (reenactments, V Day parade, etc.).

The only way for cops here to carry off duty is to get a license the same as any other civilian.

What is the most available sub-9mm pistol available in Austria? I suppose here it would be a surplus CZ 82/83 had there been any such limitation (these tend to be entry level guns for new license holders on budget with prices starting at €80).
 
Now this is cool - Czech and Austrian gun owners having a conversation about firearms rights in English on an American gun board. Love it. BTW, big fan of Czech firearms, carry a P-09 every day, use a BREN 805 as a coyote buster and CZ 527M for light hunting rifle. Austria....you guys are supposed to have some really good beers, aren't you? As good as Pilsner Urquell?
Gentlemen, in all seriousness this statement by our Czech friend is dead on to rights;
It seems that there quite a few places in US where 2A is not worth the paper it is written on, so fighting about the terminology seems a bit futile.
For me, a resident of Free AZ, the laws in New Jersey or Hawaii seem like the state is located in the Former Soviet Union, while in California, recently naturalized Chinese immigrants are boasting of finally being able to purchase a firearm, even those restrictions that seem so onerous to me are the very breath of freedom to them. Seriously, recent news article. I hope against hope that the Czech Republic gets that 2A for themselves, and they break away from the death spiral that is the EU, as seen from the American Southwest. Good luck!
 
So lending someone a gun is not possible, even if it is owned by your spouse? Well, its not that big of an issue if the paperwork is easy to file, but still annoying.
Open carry is nice as a possibility, but unless you are a security guard or someone wearing uniform would be highly unpractical anyways, as I fear there are many people not used to guns in public and you would often have to deal with the police being called on you.

What is the most available sub-9mm pistol available in Austria? I suppose here it would be a surplus CZ 82/83 had there been any such limitation (these tend to be entry level guns for new license holders on budget with prices starting at €80).
Sorry, i did not phrase that right - the law says "9mm or smaller", so standard 9x19 is fine. The phrasing however is unclear (as said above - technically a .38 special is not okay, while a .223 or .308 would be) and will lead to some interesting court sessions in the future. The most available sub 9mm would be the Walther PPK and its respective clones, starting at around 50€ for clones and around 200€ for originals. The most common 9mm however is - of course - the Glock 17, followed by the Glock 19.


Austria....you guys are supposed to have some really good beers, aren't you? As good as Pilsner Urquell?

We do, the selection of Austrian beers is great and friends oversees always ask me to bring some! If they are better than Pilsner Urquell depends on your taste I guess ;)
Very famous are Ottakringer Helles, Hirter Bio, Zipfer Urtyp or Salzburger Weisse (if you like wheat beer), but there are so many brands that it is impossible to say which one is the best. But aside from beers the country is also known for a little pistol inventend by Gaston G. ;)
 
So lending someone a gun is not possible, even if it is owned by your spouse?

Unfortunately not.

What are your rules on firearms storage? I can keep 2 outside of the safe for HD (accessible to spouse notwithstanding whether she does or does not have a license).

Open carry is nice as a possibility, but unless you are a security guard or someone wearing uniform would be highly unpractical anyways

Here also private security must CC, so that's a big issue with the current EU Gun Ban proposal.

I wouldn't OC anyway, unless I would have a specific reason to do so (like handing out leaflets in front of EU Commission Representation ;) )
 
Unfortunately not.

What are your rules on firearms storage? I can keep 2 outside of the safe for HD (accessible to spouse notwithstanding whether she does or does not have a license).

The law on that is pretty simple and consists of one sentence: "Firearms have to be kept securely", but interpretation of that varies a bit from district to district. In general, a good lock on the door is sufficient for categories C and D, for category B the district police (who determines whether something is considered "secure") will require some form of locked device, and for A you will need a fixed safe. This however only comes into affect if you leave your home. As long as you are at home, you can keep your firearms however you want as long as everyone inside the home is legal to access them. So if you have kids at home, you have to lock away all firearms (or keep them on your person), and if your spouse does not have a permit for category B, you have to lock everything thats category B. C and D is legal for everyone over 18 years of age.
You can keep all your firearms loaded if you wish, and there are no laws on how to store ammunition. The only thing you can not do is store than more than 10kg of powder in one place.

Are there rules on that or the number of rounds you can keep for you?

OCing in front of the comission sounds funny - however it might just inspire them to the next idiotic idea on what to regulate ;)
 
Are there rules on that or the number of rounds you can keep for you?

No magazine capacity/rounds count restrictions (apart from the fact that you may have maximum 2 ready-to-shoot firearms with you - if you have more, they should be unloaded).

Specific storage requirements for more than 500/10.000/20.000 rounds.
 
I was amazed with the media reaction in Austria - almost every newspaper reportet in a neutral tone, not a single one panicking about gunslinging madmen from CZ, not even the evening news (being famous for such views).

As I understand the amendment still has to be voted on in the parlament and they need votes from opposition parties (represantatives from non-governmental-parties, I don't know the correct term unfortunately)? Does it look good for a positive vote?
 
I just love how the stock photo for 'guns' at WAPO is from an English 'gun' surrender (having jack-squat to do with either lawful civilian carry or Czechland) and appears to contain a large number of toy guns, no less. I'd wager most of the others are deactivated in some way based on that context.

They then go on to essentially slander the Czech people as paranoid racists because the demonstrably-corrosive cultural influx seen on display in neighboring EU states is as yet still a small minority of the population. Also that it is somehow 'ominous' that private Czech citizens could be considered part of that state's security apparatus by their own government (I assume the implication is they are secretly building some massive army to infiltrate other EU states, or something? I wasn't quite sure what the author was alluding to with that language)

TCB
 
RoscoeBryant said:
...Very famous are Ottakringer Helles, Hirter Bio, Zipfer Urtyp or Salzburger Weisse...
Now I know what to look for at BevMo, thanks! Always up to try something different.
RoscoeBryant said:
But aside from beers the country is also known for a little pistol inventend by Gaston G.
Heard of the guy, got known for shovels and knives, right? :D
 
I was amazed with the media reaction in Austria - almost every newspaper reportet in a neutral tone, not a single one panicking about gunslinging madmen from CZ, not even the evening news (being famous for such views).

Good to hear that. One of the most absurd reactions I've seen was that Czechs will be pushed out of Schengen as neighboring countries will then resort to checking every person and vehicle leaving the country for CCers. Don't mind we already have 240.000 CCers.

The absurdity of this argument comes to light when you realize that Germany alone says they have over 600 persons who represent immediate danger as regards possibility of carrying out a terrorist attack. This is the reality on the ground and newspapers are worried about CCers? Too bad we will have to wait for the first one to commit an attack in the Czech Republic before the border checks on cars coming from Germany are established.

As I understand the amendment still has to be voted on in the parlament and they need votes from opposition parties (represantatives from non-governmental-parties, I don't know the correct term unfortunately)? Does it look good for a positive vote?

Yes, it needs to be voted in in the Parliament. So far it seems that the other two parties of government coalition are not that very positive about the amendment, meanwhile opposition in parliament seems more or less supporting it.

It is proposed by the Social Democrats who are leading government coalition party but suffering about 5% less vote in current polls behind ANO - the second government coalition party. I do believe that they welcome ANO Ministers' reluctance and will play it during elections.

(One of the main issues is that it was proposed by Social Democratic minister of interior without prior consultation with ANO minister of defense - even though it is drafted as amendment to the constitutional act on national security).
 
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