EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

[RoscoeBryant]

The UK government are seeking to ban rifles with a muzzle velocity of over 10,000 ft.lbf (ie. 50 cal) and MARS/lever release action rifles. Their reasoning is that they are worried that terrorists will somehow gain access to such guns, and will leave the police outgunned.

Shouldn't have "de-gunned" the Bobbys then, if they are worried they will be outgunned...

 

[Bohemus]

Guys, keep your fingers crossed for us tomorow and on thursday as Senate will decide upon our guns future...

 

[Snejdarek]

Listening to the past few minutes of the Senate debate (video stream is overloaded). I just puked a little into my mouth.

I can take losing the vote, but the utter stupidity of the antigunners' arguments is a little too much.

Final vote soon, I will report on the outcome.

 

[Snejdarek]

UPDATE

THE PROPOSAL FAILED TO PASS THROUGH SENATE.

 

[everydefense]

Oh no

 

[DJ Die]

It's sad really. Some of our senators outright lied or bent the truth so far it must have snapped in half. They want to push for a change in the law by June 2018 with a completely reworked law to completely replace the current law as some later date. At least people who currently own the soon to be A-1 category weapons should be issued an exemption automatically. It still sucks and 2 of my 4 guns will become A-1 now. I guess I'll have to buy at least one more gun next year...

 

[everydefense]

Do you expect the presidential election result to have any impact on gun rights?
https://www.politico.eu/article/milos-zeman-wins-second-term-as-czech-president/

 

[Blackstone]

Sorry to hear that

 

[DJ Die]

Do you expect the presidential election result to have any impact on gun rights?
https://www.politico.eu/article/milos-zeman-wins-second-term-as-czech-president/

Not really, as Miloš Zeman didnt do much to support our effort despite claiming to be against the directive during his first term. Besides, our president has very little formal power compared to the US one, for example.
A new petition has been launched to push for a repeated vote on this law as well as to refuse the directive, the previous petition was submitted to the senate with more than 110 thousand signatures.

 

[Snejdarek]

Do you expect the presidential election result to have any impact on gun rights?

Not really, as Miloš Zeman didnt do much to support our effort despite claiming to be against the directive during his first term.

I disagree. The election outcome is very important for gun rights and general heading of gun policy in the country. It is true that the presidency is largely ceremonial function in the country, yet the president has a very large influence on the course of publicly debated issues.

We could hardly ask more from Zeman when it comes to support of gun rights:
- he repeatedly publicly opposed the EU Gun Ban
- his wife made a publicity stunt during the first term by getting concealed carry license and he often speaks about the fact that she CCs a revolver (on top of several pictures of her firing military rifles)
- he repeatedly spoke in favor of private firearms ownership
- he may very well be the only single high ranking politician within the entire Europe that has in the past several decades asked holders of CC license to do carry their firearms and be vigilant and ready to act in case of terror attack / criminal act happens

Hi rival, Mr. Drahoš, has for a long time headed the advice of his well paid advisors and kept clear of firearm issue and especially of showing any antipathy to gun owners. However, firearms became one of main topics of their first (of two) televised debate, and there Drahoš let his view to be clearly known. When Zeman applauded a shop owner who shot dead a thief who stabbed clerk in the neck, Drahoš replied by saying that "not all shop owners can be armed and everyone who gets into a shop should not be killed." My only thoughts were ***?

On point as regards Directive: Zeman's taking the easy way out (given that his post is mostly ceremonial), saying that the Directive should not be implemented. Drahoš is taking the "correct" way out: it is our duty to implement now.

Despite mostly ceremonial role, the President will serve one important role: He will have to sign any law implementing the Directive into effect. Zeman's position and possibility of using his veto power makes "hardcore" implementation further less likely.

[There is nothing else to like about Zeman, and plenty of reasons to vote for the other guy just to get Zeman out. But when our gun rights are under attack, we don't have the comfort of choosing the best candidate, we must base the vote on the one issue, or else we are lost.]

And now some pics of Mr. Zeman and his wife.





(Note that human shaped targets are illegal in most of Europe. Where they are legal, their use would be akin to political suicide)











In my humble opinion, any gun owner who voted against Zeman should surrender their firearms. And since surrendering them to the state would be a waste, I volunteer to take a good care of them guns.

 

[Snejdarek]

UPDATE

The amendment may very well be dead but there are now attempts under way to revive it. Czech constitution leaves some room for interpretation according to which in case that the Senate has failed to reach the qualified majority and at the same time also failed to strike the amendment down (as is the case), it may be brought to the floor for a new vote.

I personally don't think that it would be brought back for a re-vote or that the re-vote could lead to a different outcome. However the Zombification of the amendment might raise chances of a new amendment being filed in the Chamber of Deputies and then voted through the Senate after 1/3 of it is changed in the autumn elections.

As regards the EU Gun Ban implementation:

- there is a first draft by the Ministry of Interior that would implement the Directive
- Ministry is launching "expert panel" that includes basically all organizations concerned with the issue, from gun associations to big businesses

- the specific issue of "select fire firearms rebuild into semi-auto configuration" might be solved in a very Czech way - legally, all/most such guns will be considered as semi-auto firearms that are newly made by use of "some" original old parts. So it seems that nothing will change with the vz.58 market as well as very popular rebuilds of all the milsurp guns that flooded Czech gun shops in the past several years.

 

[Snejdarek]

- the specific issue of "select fire firearms rebuild into semi-auto configuration" might be solved in a very Czech way - legally, all/most such guns will be considered as semi-auto firearms that are newly made by use of "some" original old parts. So it seems that nothing will change with the vz.58 market as well as very popular rebuilds of all the milsurp guns that flooded Czech gun shops in the past several years.

UPDATE

Regarding the above mentioned. It seems that the Ministry of Interior will take the road of "only the guns that were first registered as full-auto and only then re-registered as semi-auto will be considered as converted withing the meaning of the directive." Given that basically all of the milsurp firearms do not enter civilian registry before the conversion to semi-auto, there would probably be next to no guns falling within this category.

Still, there remains the issue of magazine capacity and PDWs.

 

[Snejdarek]

UPDATE

The proposal for implementation (amendment to the current firearms act) will enter the first reading in the Chamber of Deputies of the Parliament tomorrow.

This proposal was basically put together on autopilot: There were elections in the autumn and the outgoing government ordered Ministry of Interior to prepare a draft that would implement the EUGunBan in the most sensitive way possible. The beaurocrats of the Ministry are on one hand very pro-gun, on the other without clear political guidance on where to cut the corners they prepared something that is much less ambitious than what we were hoping for.

The good thing is full grandfathering for pre 13 June 2017 guns banned by the EUGunBan.

The bad news is that after this date, they will be may issue. The good news is that their may issue statute is drafted in a way different than the may issue statute for full auto guns - which is applied very restrictively. Another good news is that for sport shooters (that are members of shooting club that issues paper that they train there regularly) it is on par with shall issue (only for guns that are used in international shooting competitions, I don't think that my semi-auto ZB.26 will fall into that category - well a Czech-Slovak event with old machineguns would be probably enough to fulfill the letter of the law, so maybe we will start one )

The main problem with it is that the may issue will be fallable to political decision of the Minister of Interior.

Well, the fight is only starting, I don't think that there is too much of political will to push it through, we will see after tomorrow.

Anyone interested in more detail is welcome to read it here with google translate: http://zbrojnice.com/category/implementace/

 

[Snejdarek]

UPDATE

Great news today. The proposal for implementation was stricken down faster than it entered the floor. The raporteur deputy put forward motion to have it stricken down and to debate on the proposal only after the EU Court of Justice decides teh suit that the Czech Republic has brought against it. Details of the suit are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#European_Court_of_Justice_challenge

That possibility was always on the table, but what is more important is that 167 deputies out of 172 voted in favor of the motion to have it stricken down. Nobody voted against.

Today is a good day.

 

[Snejdarek]

For some reason, the new Prime Minister and Minister of Interior met with with the people that are behind a petition against the EU Gun Ban today.



These gentlemen represent "ANO" party that first tanked the proposed constitutional amendment on the government level and then supported it in the Parliament (probably the public opinion polls came in...).

To say that their position on the issue is unpredictable is an understatement. So I am quite curious to see whether this is a sign of change.

The implementation of the EU Gun Ban is now at the Chamber of Deputies and will be on floor probably some time next month. As of now I have no idea what to expect, and truth to be told, not even what to hope for.

@Bohemus Care to weigh in?

 

[Snejdarek]

UPDATE

There is a petition against the EU Gun Ban. It has currently over 50K signatures gained in past 4 months - all of them physically on paper with addition of personal data that allow identification of the petitionists - i.e. in line with Czech law, no anonymous online petition.

Today, the President of the Czech Republic Miloš Zeman added his own signature.



Mr. Zeman has veto power over any proposed law.

In case he vetoes the implementation, the Chamber of Deputies would need to vote again on the measure and approve it by at least 101 votes from 200 (while in original adoption, simple majority of those present is sufficient).

Although largely symbolic for now, it shows that the battle for implementation is far from over.

Right now the implementation proposal of the Ministry of Interior (as explained above) is still waiting for 1st reading in the Chamber of Deputies.

 

[Snejdarek]

SWISS UPDATE : : : SWITZERLAND CAVED IN

The EU Gun Ban was debated on Wednesday in Swiss Nationalrat. The Parliament passed it with slight modifications from the original government proposal of full implementation.

The Swiss will thus:

- be able to keep their service rifles (which are prohibited under the EU Gun Ban due to being converted from full auto and having high capacity magazine). However in case a person would want to sell his service rifle, it would be considered prohibited firearm and the buyer would need to jump through red tape (obligatory sport club membership, regular training, sport club affidavit that he NEEDS the gun for particular discipline).
- be able to keep their standard capacity magazines, HOWEVER in case they actually do put them inside of a firearm, the gun will immediately become PROHOBITED with all of its consequences

Otherwise, from practical point of view, it seems as full implementation. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#Gun_ban

The bill will now go to the other chamber of Swiss parliament

 

[Snejdarek]

UPDATE

Reviving the constitutional amendment is now becoming a real possibility. There are two ways forward now: either re-launch the existing proposal after 1/3 of the Senate is changed after autumn elections, or to come up with a fresh proposal that would differ from the previous one.

As the autumn elections are nearing, Senator Láska ("Love" in Czech) has now voiced his support for introduction of the RKBA into Czech Constitution - not as part of the former proposal that aimed at the change of the Constitutional Act on Security of the Czech Republic (and mainly as a right to own guns to protect the country - i.e. a way to get gun ownership out of the EU law reach, as EU has no say over matters of national security), but as a part of the Consitution itself, and as a right to own and carry guns for personal protection.

This good man Láska was the rapporteur of the original proposal in the Senate, and not only was he vehemently opposed, he was very active in persuading other Senators to vote against it. Hopefully he will reap what he siw in the autumn, as his seat is also up for reelection.

I'll just leave hir a link for my later purposes (in Czech) https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/...4?seq-no=2&dop-ab-variant=&source=clanky-home

 

[Armybrat]

If the EU continues dictating too much overreaching policy into its members national affairs, then the organization will eventually fall apart.
In my opinion, Europe screwed up when they allowed it to become more than an economic partnership of nations. Instead the EU has become a "big brother" controlled by the Germans & the French - two countries that are really interested only in themselves.

 

[RPZ]

If the EU continues dictating too much overreaching policy into its members national affairs, then the organization will eventually fall apart.
In my opinion, Europe screwed up when they allowed it to become more than an economic partnership of nations. Instead the EU has become a "big brother" controlled by the Germans & the French - two countries that are really interested only in themselves.

I agree. It's timely that this EU "gun ban" is being pushed right when tension is sky high over another, ahem... major issue .. that is tetering on causing about five other nations to just pull out altogether.

I think they are worried about uprisings in several other countries as well.

 

[Ignition Override]

How about private gun ownership (bolt/semi-auto rifle or handgun) in the nearby countries which blocked almost all of the recent immigrants?

Has either type of gun been legal in Hungary and Poland? The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland appear to be in their own little world among the EU nations.

But I'm aware of Slovenia's gun rights and the funny gun channel--Polenar Tactical-- operating there.

 

[Snejdarek]

How about private gun ownership (bolt/semi-auto rifle or handgun) in the nearby countries which blocked almost all of the recent immigrants?

It is not so much question of legality as of the amount of red tape you need to get through to own a firearm. Technically, you can own an AR 15 also in Mexico, but for all practical purposes Mexicans are a disarmed population with draconian gun laws.

Then, apart from gun laws, you need to factor in also the general population's attitude to firearms. Last but not least, a gun is not worth much unless you can have it with you and use it for self defense - as the chief editor of Charlie Hebdo found out, being a sport shooter he was denied concealed carry license, even though he was on Al Qaeda's kill list. We all know how what happened next.

So, in general:

Slovakia - OWNERSHIP: permissive may issue | MODERN SPORTING RIFLES: may issue | CONCEALED CARRY: permissive may issue | GENERAL ATTITUDE: permissive | EU GUN BAN VOTE: government supported EU Gun Ban

Hungary - OWNERSHIP: may issue | MSR: may issue | CC: forgetaboutit | GENERAL ATTITUDE: guns are bad | EU GUN BAN VOTE: government supported the EU Gun Ban

Poland /note - laws changed recently and I might not be up to date / OWNERSHIP: shall issue ? | MSR: shall issue ? | CC: was forgetaboutit, recently changed to permissive, not sure though | GENERAL ATTITUDE: most disarmed population in Europe, attitude is changing though | EU GUN BAN VOTE: government voted AGAINST

Austria: OWNERSHIP: shall issue | MSR: shall issue | CONCEALED CARRY restrictive may issue | GENERAL ATTITUDE: good | EU Gun Ban vote: government supported the EU Gun Ban

Slovenia: OWNERSHIP: shall issue | MSR: ? | CONCEALED CARRY forgetaboutit | GENERAL ATTITUDE: interesting sport / you wanna carry what are you crazy? | Eu Gun Ban vote: government supported the EU Gun Ban

It's timely that this EU "gun ban" is being pushed right when tension is sky high

Problem is that the only two national governments that voted against the EU Gun Ban were Czech and Polish.

Even the Swiss supported it (they are not members of EU but they were taken along for the drafting process as the rules will be binding also on them through their association to the Schengen borderless agreement).

 

[Ignition Override]

Thanks.
Because I did not read enough about the EU Gun Ban to understand what it means, I will read what you said about it.

 

[Snejdarek]

Because I did not read enough about the EU Gun Ban to understand what it means, I will read what you said about it.

I put quite some effort also into this explanation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Firearms_Directive#Gun_ban

 

[Old Dog]

Snejdarek, keep fighting the good fight. It's heartening to know that there are still some activist pro-gun folks left in Europe ... And thank you for the continued updates, much appreciated!