P5 Guy
Member
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
NPR says that school shootings are rare, horrible even if only one.
NPR says that school shootings are rare, horrible even if only one.
The main difference is that the police responding aren't in the situation, the teachers and coaches are. It's their lives which that are at risk. So far many teachers have met their end in these active shooter situations doing everything in their power to protect kids, they just didn't have the one tool that might've stopped it.This is a perfect example of why I don't think simply introducing guns into schools will be of a particular help in the future. Here was someone trained and equipped to deal with the problem, and he simply didn't go in. I don't expect an armed parent to go hunting in the halls, I expect them to take their family and get the heck out of there. I don't expect an armed teacher to go hunting, I expect them to hunker down just like toivo described in his post.
The military and LE spend a lot of time trying to instill into its members the ability to go into harms way, even when the odds are dramatically stacked against you. It's unreasonable to expect a citizen to do that. For every chest thumping keyboard commando I've read talking about how they'd have saved the day with their EDC, I know the reality is that a very very small percentage when faced with the actual prospect of facing another human being in deadly combat by making a completely voluntary choice (going in and hunting) will actually do so. On the flip side I know there are those out there who have seen the elephant (far worse then I have), and even though they may only have a 5 shot snubbie they will take the fight to the enemy with the will to prevail. If you've never ran to the sound of gunfire or the like, all you have is the hope for what you might do.
What could be done to improve armed response to active shooter situations?
This is a perfect example of why I don't think simply introducing guns into schools will be of a particular help in the future. Here was someone trained and equipped to deal with the problem, and he simply didn't go in. I don't expect an armed parent to go hunting in the halls, I expect them to take their family and get the heck out of there. I don't expect an armed teacher to go hunting, I expect them to hunker down just like toivo described in his post.
Ever been to a school? They mostly dress alike, like Clowns. Which Clown do you shoot, the one that's shooting or the one you thought was shooting because it's wearing a trench coat?
You respond to an active shooting at a clown convention. You're the first officer to arrive and you're alone. Your adrenaline is pumping, the political climate is going to judge you harshly whether you kill the Killer Clown or don't, but what if you shoot an innocent clown holding a squirt gun, how then will you be judged? You might lose your job, you're definitely going to lose your possessions due to civil litigation even if you win because now you owe the lawyer. Your wife divorced you and takes the kids because the town has turned against them. I've been stripped of rank and paid a fine and owed thousands to a lawyer due to unjustified use of force (not a shooting, and it was 4:1), judged by people who never stood a watch, never carried a gun and never put their lives on the line.
Ever been to a school? They mostly dress alike, like Clowns. Which Clown do you shoot, the one that's shooting or the one you thought was shooting because it's wearing a trench coat?
I completely understand officers that wait for back up.
Get your Keister in and shoot who? What if the shooter has tucked his gun away? Who do you shoot? The 16 year old who looks like he might be a suspect? I got suspended for knowingly walking into a hostage situation and after a lengthy conversation peacefully disarming the dad holding his twin infants hostage due to a domestic problem. I was young and trusted my instincts, there was no back up for miles and the radio was extremely quirky in the hill country I was patrolling. I still got suspended and reprimanded and was demoted. I'm not saying I wouldn't go in to a school shooting, I was a loose cannon, but most normal cops followed procedure and procedure clearly states that an officer must wait for back up.
Blame the politicians, parents and Schools for not coming up with anything better than duck and hide, it has never worked but that doesn't stop our educators from parroting this solution.
Do you realize what would happen if a cop shot your child by accident? I doubt you would be so adamant. Just as I would never think to tell a Submariner their job why would a Submariner who admittedly has no LE experience think it's OK to tell others theirs?
As for me personally, I no longer wear a badge but knowing what I know, would never even think about wearing one again.
I know I'm calloused but I really have no sympathy left for victims mainly because they choose to be victims but if a warrior dares to push a kid out of the way to face an attacker you can bet your white dress uniform that kid's parents are going straight to Twitter and Facebook after they've contacted a lawyer.
BTW, the few sailors that I once knew were tough as nails and took no BS but you can't just barge in to every situation. Cops don't know what's going on, who's the bad guy, how many there are, etc. etc. Many times cops shoot the wrong person (Officer Mohamed Noor, Charles Kinsey) for example.
It ain't like TV, it's chaotic, noisy, fast, nerve wracking, foggy and disjointed. The responders senses are bombarded and many times a hasty action is the wrong one.
If you shoot the mime, should you use a silencer?You respond to an active shooting at a clown convention. You're the first officer to arrive and you're alone. Your adrenaline is pumping, the political climate is going to judge you harshly whether you kill the Killer Clown or don't, but what if you shoot an innocent clown holding a squirt gun, how then will you be judged? You might lose your job, you're definitely going to lose your possessions due to civil litigation even if you win because now you owe the lawyer. Your wife divorced you and takes the kids because the town has turned against them. I've been stripped of rank and paid a fine and owed thousands to a lawyer due to unjustified use of force (not a shooting, and it was 4:1), judged by people who never stood a watch, never carried a gun and never put their lives on the line.
Ever been to a school? They mostly dress alike, like Clowns. Which Clown do you shoot, the one that's shooting or the one you thought was shooting because it's wearing a trench coat?
I completely understand officers that wait for back up.
My take, for what it’s worth,,,, I visit all the schools in our country as a Gideon,,,One is in a small, mostlylow income village. That school is very secure,,,,, I have to go through two locked doors,,,, and between them is a security area of which I cannot leave. They won’t open the second door until they are certain who I am...Fortunately they know me cause I have visited many times.... Then once inside I go no where!! Without a school personnel accompanying me... The interesting thing is all classroom doors have these locking devices that automatically lock the doors from the administrative office. They are like large steel pegs that go up from the floor to lock the door in place. And there are at least two people watching monitors every minute and they dare not slack their duty.....
I am so proud of that little school.
Agreed.What I said was "When the Killer Clown is killing, get your keister in there and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT."
Nowhere in there did I say "Get your Keister in and shoot..."
All those "what ifs" you posted fall under the category of "evaluate and take action as required". It's part and parcel for the job. If a LEO cannot handle that, then why are they in the job?
Does anybody here honestly think I could have used "what if" excuses to not do my job as a Reactor Operator on a submarine, the most advanced mobile weapons platform ever designed in human history? What if I didn't follow my procedures and training during a flooding casualty and inadvertently lost propulsion in the middle of a flooding casualty at test depth? What if, during a flooding casualty, something else unexpected happened which further threatened the ship? Those dolphins on my chest told every other shipmate on that submarine that I had what it took to figure it out and take the appropriate actions as required. My oral board with the Commanding Officer himself certified me by law as a qualified, fully capable Reactor Operator. If I couldn't cut it, then I would not have deserved those dolphins, or my nuclear qualifications, and I would have been disqualified and removed from submarine duty. The SAME philosophy applies to law enforcemen officers, in my opinion. If you can't hack it, then move on to something you CAN hack and let someone else move up instead.
Life is FULL of uncertainties. Some of them are dangerous. And some jobs are supposed to be able to deal with those dangerous uncertainties.
And you know what? Sometimes we get hammered (justly or not) for doing what was right for the time. That comes with the territory. When I made Chief, that was a defining characteristic driven home to me and my fellow selectees at the time by all the other Chiefs charged with our training and initiation. We do the right thing, regardless. And sometimes that means we fall on the sword in the process for the greater good. Sucks...but that's what it takes to REALLY live up to the ideal.
Granted...there are probably procedures to be followed, and training to be had, in the LEO field for just such situations. Maybe it's specialized, I don't know...I've never been a LEO. I'll leave those details to you and others and trust that your word on such matters is far more credible than mine.
"Just as I would never think to tell a Submariner their job why would a Submariner who admittedly has no LE experience think it's OK to tell others theirs?"
You have every right to demand that a Submariner be able to do their job, regardless of your own experience. You may not be able to rightfully tell a Submariner HOW to do their job, but that's not what we're talking about.
Likewise, I won't tell a LEO how to do their job. I will say, however, that if a LEO CANNOT do their job, they should move on. And that's at all levels...from the most junior at the lowest levels, all the way up the ranks and across the board. Local law enforcement, county, state, federal...and for the red headed stepchildren of the military, the Coast Guard. (They're a whole 'nuther level of law enforcement!)
"It ain't like TV, it's chaotic, noisy, fast, nerve wracking, foggy and disjointed. The responders senses are bombarded and many times a hasty action is the wrong one."
Absolutely, you're right. And like I told an instructor giving us that stupid "Total Quality Leadership" training many, many years ago (it was a civilian corporate "Total Quality Management" training retitled with no changes and branded as the latest and greatest method of leadership, superceding all others which came before it in totality), "This isn't Star Trek. When 'Torpedo Evasion' is announced, we don't gather up all the department heads and adjurn to the Captain's Study to figure out what to do. There's a time and a place to conduct business like this, but when push comes to shove, sometimes the REAL answer is '**** and do your job!'"
If LEO training is done properly, I imagine it's much like mine was while in the Navy. You're given the building blocks, you put those into practice to positively reinforce them, and you learn how the basic principles behind them are applied to give you the correct results. Then your training gets ramped up...different scenarios with "anomolies" thrown in to get you to figure out how to prioritize, how to work together as a team to handle complications, etc. Then it's all critiqued and trained upon so you can learn what worked, what didn't, and how to improve.
A flooding casualty drill is simple and straight forward, depending on whether it's forward or aft. But flooding drills are quickly ramped up in a variety of ways to make them as realistically chaotic as real life. Flooding means the possibility of loss of propulsion. It means the possibility of the Emergency Blow System not working. It means possible loss of electrical equipment. It means the possibility of electrical fires. It means possible loss or garbled communications. It means injuries or deaths. It means loss of lighting. It means damage control equipment not working properly. All these, and more. Pretty darned chaotic, indeed!
I fully expect a LEOs life to sometimes be every bit as chaotic as Submarine casualties in his/her own experiences, sometimes. But they STILL have a job to do.
And that, my friend, is what I mean.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/scot-p...eman-douglas-high-school-shooting-2019-06-04/
Since no law enforcement agency or agent has a duty to protect any member of the public at large this will go nowhere. Unless driven by emotion.
I'm troubled by this action... Yes, the officer behaved improperly (very badly, actually...) but not one of us can predict how we'll respond to that one heart-stopping moment - and that's from a guy who did 22 years in police work. I'll certainly agree that he failed utterly and that there were certainly grounds for dismissal - and that 30 year pension he worked for might be correctly forfeited as a result - but criminal charges? So like everyone else I'll be watching closely to see how this plays out.
I'm not going to re-hash stuff I've spoken about previously - but simply add to it that on the day in question... there was a single officer assigned to Parkland - and that usually "school resource officers" are hardly fit young officers dying for an opportunity to prove themselves. Instead the kind of officers chosen for that type of assignment are the least pro-active types on any agency (serious understatement...) and usually the type of officer that's just marking time towards the end of an un-distinguished career.
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