Favorite 9mm load?

Status
Not open for further replies.
To standardize with one powder in 9mm, you're going to have to consider a lot of issues. Most of the powder recommendations are fine for lighter loads in 9mm. And NO, reloading for 9mm is not dumb! It's about the only way to get match grade accuracy with full velocity potential. 9mm is a 35,000 PSI round. Formerly 35,700 CUP which is equivelant to todays rating for 9mm +P at 38,500 PSI. To me, the 9mm is a high performance cartridge, so I don't load light, or cast loads for it. Blue Dot will get that done, but with a long fireball. Ditto for Power Pistol or nearly any other double base flake powder.

I like recommendation #3, because #7 was originally made specifically for high velocity 9mm Nato rounds. It works extremely well with bullet weights of 124 grains and higher. Flash is very low.

V-V 3N37 will get you some of the highest velocities available in 9mm with good accuracy. Flash is moderate to low depending on bullet weight and powder charge.

HS-6 is still the velocity king. It's used by more IPSC shooters loading very high velocity loads than any other. Right behind it would be Ramshot Silhouette (formerly Winchester Action Pistol, WAP), then Ramshot True Blue and V-V 3N37. Of these four, I consider Silhouette and True Blue to better as all around 9mm powders, like say, factory load velocity. Silhouette is the lowest flash powder I've ever used in 9mm.

Flake powders are fine if flash is not a concern, but as pressure/velocity go up, so will flash. If you really want a fireball, it's hard to beat Power Pistol and Blue Dot. Blue Dot has provided some of the most accurate high velocity loads I've fired over the years.

Bushmaster is making a very good point that needs to be heeded a bit more. Unless a powder manufacturer says that two powders are identical, its best for everyone if you don't ASSume they are. Hodgdon will only commit to two handgun propellants as equivelant to Winchester powders: 540 is HS-6, and 571 is HS-7. The thing that validates Bushmaster's statement is something you may not have considered and he's not being heavy handed, but here are the facts. First, if your loading manual doesn't give pressure values for handloads, how can you say something is equivelant? Hodgdon and Winchester ball powders are made by PRIMEX. They start off from the same base chemistry in many cases, but because they are made to the specifications (or were before Hodgdon bought Winchester powders, formerly OLIN) they will differ in pressure at the same powder charge. This is the case for W-231 and HP-38. All you need to do is consult the Lyman manual where loads were charged exactly the same and fired from the same 4" ballistic test barrels. I could understand some velocity/pressure variation because of manufacturing lot, but not the differences clearly shown in the Lyman manuals that do show pressure values. The same holds true for W296 and H110.;)
 
AA #5 & WSF because they give excellent accuracy with good velocities and reasonable recoil for said velocities. They burn clean as well.

If you are looking for max velocities other powders can outdo them. ;)
 
Yep, and I didn't mean to omit them. I should have added #5 and WSF to the same category as True Blue and Silhouette. If I couldn't get Silhouette, I'd probably use WSF.;)
 
CZ57


V-V 3N37 will get you some of the highest velocities available in 9mm with good accuracy.

I agree that it is low flash and compared to other data high velocity, as listed in VV load data.

But if one approaches the problem experimentally tabula rasa, then Power Pistol comes out the velocity champion, despite what is published.
 
I don't know what peoples problem is with reloading 9mm. I load for 8 cents a round, thats less than half the price of the cheapest factory ammo.

I use 115gr winchester HB bullets and 4.5gr Titegroup.

Jon
 
OK one more. I use 4.5 grains W231 with 115 grain homecast LRN. Shoots great and reliable.
 
CZ57 said:
...Hodgdon will only commit to two handgun propellants as equivalent to Winchester powders: 540 is HS-6, and 571 is HS-7.

Sorry, but that is not correct. I would politely refer you to Hodgdon via email or phone and personally confirm as I and many others have that H110 & W296 are the same, and that HP38 & W231 are the same. According to Hodgdon, they always have been. Any differences in the manuals is a result of lot to lot variables, and/or different testing conditions. Because these differences occur, the powder manufacturers recommend reworking major loads when purchasing a new lot of powder.

And just for anyone listening, What CZ said about Power Pistol being a variant of Bullseye is correct. Look for it being sold commercially as Bullseye 84. The rest.... I won't comment on.
 
I like 5.0 grains of Green Dot with any bullet up to 125 grains. (95 grain .380 Auto bullets are real screamers, but I have trouble getting them to feed because the OAL is a little short.)

I'm about out of Green Dot, so I've switched to 4.5 grains of Promo with 125 grain truncated cone bullets, or 4.0 grains of Promo with 135 grain cast round-nosed bullets.
 
philbo, have you looked at data with pressure values given? I've heard everything you're saying, and I've heard it for years. Different lots I can buy, different test methods I'll buy, but let me put up an example where the same test parameters were used compiling data for the Lyman 46th edition in a 4" ballistic test barrel.

Lyman #358311 158 grain. This is a very common bullet and why I'm using it for comparison. There are a number of similar examples. A CCI-500 primer was used in both loads.

Max charge for +P is 5.2 grains of 231, Velocity 956 FPS, Pressure was 18,500 CUP.

Max charge for +P is 4.5 grains of HP-38, Velocity 944 FPS, Pressure was 18,400 CUP.

There is only a 100 CUP Pressure difference and velocity is very close, certainly dismissible to lot variation, but if a powder manufacturer says that there can be that much variation in charge weight (13.5%) to get a near identical result, I'd pass on either powder, or you can assume that different 4" barrels were used where chamber and bore dimensions varied by nearly 13.5%.

I certainly wouldn't recommend to anyone that they could ignore these facts and use HP-38 with the charge for 231.

Maybe I'm wrong, but when a powder company says identical, that's how I define it. HS-6 and 540 data is interchangeable according to Hodgdon at their website, as is the case with HS-7 and 571. I could cite examples with H110 and 296 in magnum revolver cartridges. Better yet, I'll just recommend to any reloader that they own at least one manual that gives pressure values with the load data.;)
 
CZ57 said:
philbo, have you looked at data with pressure values given?
CZ, The information I am working with is straight from Hodgdon. I urge you to contact them directly to verify this, or update your manual and stop relying on one that is 2 editions out of date and nearly 20 years old. ;) The 2007 Hodgdon manual lists pressure data and for every load HP38/W231 and H110/W296 is identical.

CZ, I am not going to detract further from the original post, so pm me if you want to continue.
 
I've loaded 9mm with W231 for over twenty years.

a. 115 lrn or Rainier plated bullets - 4.6 gr.
b. 115 Winchester or Remington JHP - 5.0 gr.

Reliable and accurate!
 
I certainly wouldn't recommend to anyone that they could ignore these facts and use HP-38 with the charge for 231. ~CZ57

CZ, first let me say I respect your postings and have learned a bunch from them. I've even searched several forums to obtain your posts, especially about 9mm loading with AA #7, True Blue and Silhouette. Kudos to your knowledge. I'm richer for it!

Now, about HP-38 and WIN-231. If you look at Hodgdon's reloading site, you'll notice they list both HP-38 and WIN-231 as they distribute both of them now. As an example, here's data for the 115gr SPR Gold Dot:

115 GR. SPR GDHP 115 HP-38 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP

115 GR. SPR GDHP 115 231 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP

And here's an example for 45 ACP:

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP 230 231 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP

All HP-38/WIN-231 data that I see on their site is identical.

Now, I agree if I had a specific load with 231 and was going to change to HP-38, I would definitely back off and work back up to where I wanted to be using the Chrony and perhaps mic-ing the casing if it was a hot load. But, based on Hodgdon's site, I'm convinced they're the same powder.
 
Crimp said:
But, based on Hodgdon's site, I'm convinced they're the same powder.

From an old email sent to Hodgdon about this:

Powder Equivalents
There are very few of these powders.
HS6 = W540
HS7 = W571
HP38 = W231
H110 = W296

There are no other powders that are interchangeable

Mike Daly
Director of Customer Service, Hogdon
 
Thanks, Crimp! That's the goal.

I'll bet Citadel would appreciate it if we got back on track, so I'll end my comments with just a couple of points.

First, I'm going to rely on independent testing over any powder manufacturers claims. Years ago Hodgdon went on ad campaign that said "H110, the powder that screams NO WIMPS PLEASE!" The .357 Magnum load was with a 125 gr. JHP with a velocity over 1800 FPS. Down in the fine print you could read that velocity was obtained in a 10" ballistic test barrel. With a 6" .357 magnum revolver you'd have been doing good to get within 400 FPS of their claim, THEN, if you checked a good manual with ACTUAL pressure value you could see that what they were listing was a bit short of a maximum charge with a 125 gr. JHP. Well, there's wimps, and then there's wimps, I guess.

Second, if anyone has loaded the 9mm as long as I have, a couple of things would be lodged in your learning experience. American companies have a provable bias against the cartridge, and always have. Companies like Hodgdon make up SAAMI. Crimp, since you've looked at my past posts you've probably seen a repetitive theme. I believe the 9 X 19mm has the strongest casehead of the common autoloading cartridges. We know that ka-boom events have been more common to the .40 S&W than any auto cartridge, in my reloading lifetime anyway. Now ask yourself how it is that the .357 SIG should have a SAAMI pressure max of 40,000 PSI, since its parent case is the .40 S&W? .38 Super got a SAAMI pressure reduction about the same time as the 9 X 19mm. Both were 35,700 CUP previously (nearly equivelant to the 9mm's present limit for +P at 38,500 PSI), but the Super was reduced to 36,500 PSI while 9 X 19mm was reduced to 35,000 PSI/33,000 CUP. The 9mm is a stronger case than the .38 Super. Yeah, obviously cheap imported 9mm pistols are part of the answer and .357 SIG barrels give better casehead support than pistols chambered for its parent cartridge. But who's responsible for most of the SNAFU? Does Hodgdon tell you what the SAAMI pressure max for 9mm and .45 ACP is? It ain't 28,100 CUP (or 16,800 for the .45), so I'd like to see those load levels a bit higher before I base anything on that particular data.

I can't say that Hodgdon, or more correctly Primex, (Hodgdon doesn't manufacture powder, last time I checked they just sell someone elses!) isn't pouring the same exact propellant into two different canisters on Hodgdons behalf now that they own both labels and unfortunately, IMR as well. I think it's a pretty damn dumb thing to do myself, and there are mental wimps that are concerned more about marketing than comprehensive safety concerns.

Now philbo doesn't like that I used the Lyman 46, but mentioned that Hodgdon claims 231 and HP-38 are the same and always have been. Draw your own conclusions. I trust Lyman, SPEER and Sierra testing to a greater degree than I'll ever trust Hodgdon. I use the Lyman 46 because it predates the tinkering done by SAAMI. Ditto for the SPEER #11. I just happened to get a new manual delivered with an order from Midway: The Lyman P&R III, and btw, it also lists pressure values with the data.

Back to the theme: Crimp, what have you come up with as a recommendation for a good 9mm load? Hopefully it's something that makes the 9mm discernible from a .380!;)
 
CZ57
Senior Member


Join Date: 01-07-05
Location: Heart of Texas
Posts: 478

{VARIOUS MATERIAL DELETED by moderator}

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55120&hl=
Joined March 7, 2002

I saw ELP in 75 or 76 right after they released the record with Brain Salad Surgery. They were not that good in Seattle, Lake was drunk and sang an octave lower than the record.

Bullseye 84 is what Power Pistol used to be called.
I can distinguish almost any pair of powders with smell and look except Bullseye and Power Pistol. For that pair, I need to measure density.

I don't know what you mean about your PP.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Favorite 9mm load

it's 4.6 to 4.8 of ww231 or Hp38, ANd what's nice is that if your using a Dillon 550B you can swap your tool head for the .40cal and reload .40 with the same powder charge. and base plate.
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?
pat
 
My current favorite 9mm round is:

Bulk Win 115gr JHPs @ 1.125" COL over 6.8gr Ramshot True Blue.

This'll read out as a hot load in most all the books, but before y'all start yelling at me, Sierra's 5th edition shows True Blue up to 6.9 with a 115.

For the life of me, I can't remember what fps I got when I tested it last year, but I remember it had a SD of 9 figured over 7 shots and was quite accurate, decently clean and no major fireball.

There may be better powders for 9mm performance rounds, but True Blue is no slouch. I just wish Ramshot would publish a wider and more realistic group of pistol load data. If for no other reason, it should help them sell more of their excellent powders.

Oh yeh - you asked about WIN 231. I also have loaded 115gr JHPs at 1.120" with 4.8gr of 231. Got an average of 1162 fps from a 4" XD with an SD of 11. Not too bad.
 
VG, my results are about the same. Blue Dot really comes into its own when you push it to its higher pressure range.

Clark, it's too bright and burns when it comes out of my barrel!:D
Sorry to hear about Greg Lake and ELP, but in 75 & 76, he wasn't the only guy to show up impaired.;)
 
Here's one for you: 4.5 to 5.0 grains of Bullseye with just about any 115 jacketed bullet, any good brass, and Winchester small pistol primers.

5.0 is close to max, approach cautiously...and always check with the various mfgr's on line data or from a good reloading manual...no disrespect meant, but always verify any load you get from the WWW.
 
Why do we have to go through this every time someone mentions W231 in a thread??? I have written Winchester and asked them about the lack of load data for some bullets I use and W231.

They clearly state in their reply that W231 and HP-38 are the same powders!!!

Here is the reply letter I received:
Dear Mr. xxxxx,
You can safely use the Hornady XTP data with your bullets. Use the crimp groove in your bullet and it will work fine. Hodgdons HP-38 and Winchester 231 are exactly the same powders. Anywhere you see data for one you can use the other. I'm sending 2 E-mails with data, one of which will have +P loads.

Dave Campbell
Hodgdon/ IMR/ Winchester
The above quote is a cut and paste from the letter so it's EXACTLY WHAT THEY SENT ME! In this day and age of out of control litigation they wouldn't tell you this unless it was totally true.

Can we please put this one to bed?? :rolleyes:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top