Fending off attacks from less-than-lethal weapons

[natedog]

If someone were to approach and threaten you with pepper spray or a stun gun (like the one pictured below) and tried to mug you, what level of force would be legally acceptable? What if they actually used the pepper spray/stun gun?

 

[mbs357]

Well...first off, I have no basis for this other than my way of thinking.
I'd assume lethal force.
Just because they're going to subdue you with less-than-lethal weapons doesn't mean they're going to stop assaulting you once you're incapacitated.
Once you're unconcious, or whatever, what's going to stop them from beating you to death/raping you/throwing you into a pit of hungry lions/bears/lawn equipment?

 

[Preacherman]

If they incapacitate me with a stun gun, they can get their hands on my not-stun gun. That means they'll have a lethal weapon to use on me. No, thanks . . . if I'm faced with such a threat, they're going down, one way or another.

 

[Erebus]

Exactly the way I see it. I'm not going to trust someone that is assaulting me to stop once I am subdued. They may just grab your wallet and run. They might not want to leave a witness, especially if they have a previous record, and are going to take your gun.

Besides to me, with my allergies and asthma, pepper spray could be lethal if I don't get treatment quick.

 

[ezypikns]

I'm not sure.....

but I think that meeting anything OTHER than deadly force WITH deadly force will get you a stretch in jail. I'm not saying that's RIGHT mind you.

 

[goalie]

Is a jury of your peers going to think that it was REASONABLE to respond to an attempt to subdue you with the aid of such a device with deadly force? To put it another way, was it REASONABLE for you to be fearful of death or serious bodily harm when you were assaulted by an assailant who, before attacking you, made a conscious decision to arm himself with a device that could be used to render you helpless?

I'm guessing that the answer, at least if you have a good lawyer, is yes.

 

[Standing Wolf]

If the criminal has a stun gun, he's going down. If he's got a water balloon, I'm going to get wet.

 

[scottgun]

Isn't it a felony to attack someone with pepper spray or a taser?

Lethal force seems resonable to me.

 

[Don Gwinn]

There's a big difference between actual "Tasers" and "stun guns" of that type. Most "stun guns" of that style, from the actual evidence I've seen, will hurt a great deal but not incapacitate you if you're expecting pain and determined to fight through it.

Whether the Taser actually does disrupt neural function (as claimed) or simply increases the pain to an unbearable level, I don't know, but there's a big difference.

I don't know (I say that a lot) whether any of this would make a difference in a court of law, but who knows? Could someone say that since the stun gun can't actually incapacitate you, then a "reasonable man" wouldn't have feared for his life? Can you argue that the average "reasonable man" doesn't know that the stun gun can be overcome?

Does any of this even matter, legally speaking?

 

[Hypnogator]

Most law enforcement agencies teach that use of deadly force is justified against an assailant with OC or a Taser, because these agents are capable of incapacitating an officer to the point that (s)he will be unable to maintain control of his or her weapon.

I agree. Still, I'd hate to be the first poor ba*d to dump someone who was coming at me with a can of OC or a Taser.

 

[Sgt Stevo]

I too would have to end a man, bent tasing or stunning me. I would not want to end up in a basement dungen somewhere.

"he came at with something black and metalic." "I was scared" So he is no longer and issue.

 

[orangeninja]

Most law enforcement agencies teach that use of deadly force is justified against an assailant with OC or a Taser, because these agents are capable of incapacitating an officer to the point that (s)he will be unable to maintain control of his or her weapon.

This is true........if you try to OC me, I will try to shoot you....no question in my mind.

Several departments’ video tape and store tapes of officers being sprayed to demonstrate the effects of OC on an officer in court. In my case it almost completely incapacitates me......which makes me a strong believer in magazine safeties and level 3 holsters. You may get a gun from me (though you'll have to all but kill me) but God help me if you get a functional magazine from me.

 

[migoi]

Maui Police seemed justified....

http://starbulletin.com/2004/03/05/news/story10.html

Friday, March 5, 2004

Chief says police
shooting was justified
Maui police look into giving officers
Taser guns after Sunday's fatal incident

By Gary T. Kubota
[email protected]

WAILUKU >> A police officer was justified in fatally shooting a suspect who resisted arrest and sprayed pepper spray at the officer and a resident, Maui police Chief Thomas Phillips said yesterday.

But Phillips said his department is looking at equipping officers with Taser guns that subdue a suspect with a nonfatal electrical charge.

Phillips said he does not know if using a Taser gun would have been successful in Sunday's fatal shooting.

"We can only speculate," he said.

A Maui officer, who has not been named, fatally shot 48-year-old Charles Benson Ogden on Sunday evening on the beach about 150 yards south of Lipoa Street.

Detectives said they have been unable to find a local address for Ogden and believe he was living out of his backpack. He formerly lived in Oklahoma.

Police said a preliminary check showed Ogden was wanted on a warrant for a weapon violation, possibly explaining why he initially fled from the police officer.

Witnesses told police that at one point, Ogden reached into his backpack but stopped after being warned by the police officer.

A pair of scissors and a fish knife with a 6-inch blade were later found in the backpack.

The death of Ogden was the second fatal shooting by Maui police this year. Officers in Paia on Jan. 23 fatally shot Lisa Kaina, who allegedly refused to stop driving a stolen Cadillac and nearly hit a number of people.

Phillips, who held a news conference yesterday, said the officer responding to a report of indecent exposure on the Kihei beach intended only to speak with Ogden, but the situation escalated into violence.

The police chief said that at the time of the shooting, the officer could see only a silhouette of Ogden because of the strong pepper spray in his eyes.

Phillips said the officer was protecting a male resident who had assisted police in the chase and also been hit with the spray, which was sold as a bear repellent.

"We believe the officer and the citizen were in danger. ... The officer was actually pretty much debilitated with the spray and in a fairly vulnerable position," Phillips said.

migoi

 

[Knob Creeker]

Justified? Absolutely!

A police officer is justified to use lethal force in a lot more situations than a citizen. For instance, if I kick in someone’s front door at 2am, run into their bedroom, and shoot them as they reach for a gun, I think I would get thrown in the pen. On the other hand, if a cop mistakenly serves a warrant on the wrong house and the same scene unfolds, he will be cleared of all charges. But that is getting a little off topic.

If someone faces a thug who is armed with a stun gun, pepper spray, or anything else that could be used to inflict bodily harm, I hope they would use every bit of force available to neutralize the threat and avoid becoming a victim. He initiated an unprovoked attack, so if Mr. pepper spray dies of lead poisoning, so be it.

In states that have adopted a ‘stand-your-ground law’, this is not even up for discussion. This law says that if a person is attacked (home, car, or anywhere else) they can meet force with force, including deadly force if they reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent great bodily harm or to prevent the commission of a felony involving the use of force. If a BG was about to use pepper spray or a stun gun on someone, then the BG is about to commit a felony involving the use of force (and/or will attempt to cause great bodily harm); BANG.

On April 11, Kentucky’s version got sent to the Governor to be signed into law.

 

[Jayb]

If the mugger gets close enough for you to tell the extent/leathality of his armament BEFORE you react, you're in deep trouble anyway.

 

[SolaScriptura139]

In states that have adopted a ‘stand-your-ground law’

Does anyone have a list or a link to a place with a list of states that have this law?

 

[Randy in Arizona]

If the criminal has a stun gun, he's going down. If he's got a water balloon, I'm going to get wet.

Am I supposed to trust a stranger to only have water in the balloon?

Possibilities:
Hydroflouric or other acids,
Lye or other caustics,
Biohazard material - -

 

[NineseveN]

Am I supposed to trust a stranger to only have water in the balloon?

Possibilities:
Hydroflouric or other acids,
Lye or other caustics,
Biohazard material - -

Hint: think reasonable man standard.

 

[Randy in Arizona]

Hint: think reasonable man standard.

DUH! No reasonable man is going to attack me!

 

[Lupinus]

In my estimation, any attack armed or otherwise makes no difference. An attack is an attack.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

I love the "duty to retreat" law.

Your Honor, I DID retreat. First I drew my weapon to cover my retreat. Then I shot him to stop him from following my retreat w/ his knife. I then waited for the police to arrive to secure the area for my retreat. And finally I retreated to the safety of the Police Station and gave a statement.

I think how you deal with a person w/ OC or a taser is the same as how you would deal with any attacker, if the person is aggresive towards you then you need to defend yourself. Keep in mind that lots of different type of people carry OC.

Some people may be intimidated by you and pull out OC to defend themselves, not to attack you. [If you have a commanding presence, it is very easy to unintentionally intimidate some people]. It should be pretty easy to tell the difference between a scared person and a predator. I some one corners me in a alley and pulls OC or a taser then I am going to treat them no different than if they pulled a knife or gun.

IMO using OC or a taser to incapacitate(sp?) some one is no different than putting a gun to their head and telling them to "get on your knees".

 

[Graystar]

In New York a person can meet a robbery attempt with lethal force. It doesn’t matter whether the perp is armed or not.

Now if they would only allow us to carry something that can readily apply lethal force...

 

[thumbody]

In MI lethal force is justified when you are in fear for your life or in danger of serious bodily harm. If someone is coming after me with a tazer or pepper spray I would feel my health is in danger. A person with athsma could die from pepper spray.

 

[Azrael256]

An attack is an attack

Agreed. OC is a deadly weapon if you make it one. So is a stun gun. A brick can be a deadly weapon. A frying pan can be a deadly weapon. A garden hose can be a deadly weapon. A good sturdy pen can be a deadly weapon. I can go on like this all day.

 

[BobTheWitch]

Use of Force

I love my state.

Since Summer 2005 it is legal to meet an attackers force with force, including lethal force if there is a threat to life or limb.

It is also legal in this state to use force, including lethal force, to stop the commision of a forcible felony. Armed Robbery is a forcible felony. Electrical Devices (Stun Guns) and offensive sprays, are both considered weapons under florida law.


I love my State.