FFL Types or, "No you don't have to "have a class 3 permit" to buy a machinegun/sbr/etc.".

C'Thulhu said:
So a local museum curator can declare ANY gun a C&R gun? I'm curious about this.
More to it than just that.
Need to submit a proposal/report with corresponding data as to why it should be C&R to BATFE.
This method is how the Czech 9x18mm CZ-82 became a C&R.
 
Class 3

I've had to educate sooooo many people in this subject. Sooooo many people I've met ask (or say) whether you need a license just to own a machine gun. I keep telling them it's the same process as owning any other NFA item (LEO sigs, fingerprints, tax stamp, etc.). Yet, they just keep coming out of the woodwork.
 
I used 199trust.com to create my trust documents when I bought my SBR. The Docs were awesome and they were quickly emailed to me. Can't beat the price either, an attorney in my hometown was going to charge me $450 which is outrageous imo.

Actually I am looking forward to buying a can for the SBR and I will throw that in the trust too.

A buddy of mine used guntrustlawyer.com to buy a trust and said his cost like $350. He was pissed when I told him what I paid for mine, lol that's what he gets for not doing his research :)
 
Where are the exceptions?

"http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/"

This is from the ATF website. From the looks of this, the regs don't allow any FFL items in WI, period. I know this is not the case, but where are the exceptions for FFL tax stamps, class 2 licenses, ect in this document?
 
According to my research, Wisconsin allows all Title II firearms, except that machine guns are only allowed for scientific purposes (whatever that means).

I'm not sure what we were supposed to see in that link. It's just a list of ATF forms and publications. Where does it say anything about Wisconsin? The ATF doesn't regulate which states can have what. As far as the feds are concerned, you're welcome to have it all. It's the states that restrict certain types of NFA firearms.

I think you haven't gotten the terminology down yet. Read this thread again: FFL is a federal firearms licensee, or firearms dealer. Class 2 is a type of special occupational tax that an FFL can have if he wants to make and sell Title II firearms.

Title II firearms are silencers, machine guns, SBSs, SBRs, destructive devices and Any Other Weapons.

Normal everyday citizens apply for a single tax stamp for each Title II firearms he wants to own. There is not special licensing involved--just an application for a tax stamp. After a 6-month average wait, if he can legally buy a firearm, he'll be approved for the tax stamp and can take possession of the Title II firearm.

Aaron
 
Exceptions, Cont

Thanks for the info Mr. Baker, and you are correct, I messed up the terminology. Here is a more specific link. http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/state-laws/31st-edition/index.html
This is the same site from the other link, just one click further. On the right there is a list of states. I looked at WI, my home state, and read the ATF's regs concerning title 2/NFA items. The reg states that these are prohibited, and I can't find the section that allows for CLEO/tax stamp/fingerprint/ect.
 
Illinois is a "No way, Harvey" state when it comes to Machine guns. But I worked for a firearms manufacturer who was based in Illinois, the owner lived in Illinois.....and he had a safe full of machine guns.!! He said that he paid a thousand bucks a year (I think that was the amount) for a special tax stamp, to go with his manufacturers license, and that was that. Must have been, because our good buddies from the ATF were frequent visitors.

I'm confused ! How was that legal? I thought that when federal and state law conflicted, the Feds always went by the more restrictive law.... And Illinois says no, you can't have one...
 
tark said:
I'm confused ! How was that legal? I thought that when federal and state law conflicted, the Feds always went by the more restrictive law.... And Illinois says no, you can't have one...
I'm guessing that Illinois only prevents individuals from having them, not dealers. Your friend is allowed to possess those items because he holds a Federal Firearms License (FFL) and has paid the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) that allows an FFL to deal in Title II firearms (and also manufacture them if they have a certain type of SOT).

Illinois apparently allows FFL/SOT holders to possess and sell machine guns, but they probably restrict who they can sell them to (my guess is they're only allowed to sell to law enforcement, but I don't know Illinois gun laws).
 
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So my question is:

I have a Class 1 FFL license. If I want to make a suppressor, for personal use, do I fill out the "Form 1" like everyone else, as individual or trust? Or is there some other process? Just didn't make sense that I'd have to do the fingerprinting and passport photo thing again.
 
I have a Class 1 FFL license. If I want to make a suppressor, for personal use, do I fill out the "Form 1" like everyone else, as individual or trust?
Yes. The 01 FFL doesn't allow you to "manufacture." In order to bypass the Form 1, you would need an 07 FFL and a Class 2 SOT. This can get expensive, especially considering the ITAR tax. You're better off just filing the Form 1 and paying the $200 tax.
 
Pre '86 is transferrable to anyone that can pass the background and pay the fees and get the signatures, etc.

Post '86 are transferrable as "dealer samples" to dealers.

See below - http://rkmerting.com/pre-and-post-dealer-samples/



Generally, dealer samples are the machine guns that gun shops keep to demonstrate a particular firearm. Today, the military or a local police department may wish to test a firearm out before ordering enough for the whole department. In days gone by, i.e. before May 19, 1986, civilians could also demo a machine gun before buying one.

When the Firearm Owners Protection Act was passed on May 19, 1986 two classes of dealer samples were created. Those owned by gun shops before the passing of the law, i.e. pre-1986 dealer samples, and those purchased by gun shops after the passing of the law, i.e. post-1986 dealer samples. It was clear to the ATF that post dealer samples could only be owned by gun shops actively developing firearms or selling firearms to government entities. The FOPA allowed for nothing else. Unfortunately, interpreting the FOPA as to pre-1986 dealer samples was more difficult.

The FOPA provided that no machine gun could be owned by civilians unless it was legally owned prior to May 19, 1986. All pre-1986 dealer samples were legally owned by civilians, but the ATF interpreted the law as strictly as possible. The ATF deemed that ownership as stock of a FFL shop was distinctly different than ownership by a civilian on a Form 4. Therefore the ATF will not let pre-1986 dealer samples be transferred to anyone without a FFL with a class III license. Sadly, these firearms will never be registered on a Form 4.

However, the ATF recognized that the firearms were legally owned by civilians prior to the FOPA and therefore could remain in civilian hands. By their interpretation, any FFL with a class III license may purchase a pre-dealer sample. Additionally, by a quirk in the law designed to handle FFL inventory on the closing of a business, the owner of the FFL may take personal possession of the machine gun upon the closing of the business. However, the law still prevents the new owner from selling the firearm to anyone other than another FFL with a class III license. (Note that ability to take personal possession of a dealer sample only applies to pre-1986 samples and not post-1986.)
 
Thank you. And what about purchasing one (Form 4)? Same answer, I am guessing?
Basically, yes. You could pay the $500 Class 3 SOT, on top of your 01 FFL, which would allow you to get suppressors tax-free using the Form 3. However, this would make sense only if you were planning at least 3 transactions a year. Otherwise it would be cheaper just to pay the $200 transfer tax.

One advantage of having the 01 FFL (without the SOT) is that you can get an NFA item interstate, on a one-time or occasional basis, without having to go through another dealer. You still have to pay the transfer tax.
 
Basically, yes. You could pay the $500 Class 3 SOT, on top of your 01 FFL, which would allow you to get suppressors tax-free using the Form 3. However, this would make sense only if you were planning at least 3 transactions a year. Otherwise it would be cheaper just to pay the $200 transfer tax.

Also bear in mind that SOT is not a one-time deal like the tax stamp; you have to pay the $500 SOT every single year ($1,000 if your business does >$500K/yr. in revenue), and NFA items must be disposed of if you don't maintain it. Not at all a practical way to acquire personal NFA items.

ATF is also not at all OK with using FFL or SOT status to enhance personal collections.
 
Also bear in mind that SOT is not a one-time deal like the tax stamp; you have to pay the $500 SOT every single year ($1,000 if your business does >$500K/yr. in revenue), and NFA items must be disposed of if you don't maintain it. Not at all a practical way to acquire personal NFA items...
Not true.
Sole Proprietors can keep everthing but post '86 machine guns once they cease paying their SOT.
Corporations that stop paying their SOT can continue to possess as long as their corporation remains valid.
 
Not true.
Sole Proprietors can keep everything but post '86 machine guns once they cease paying their SOT.
Corporations that stop paying their SOT can continue to possess as long as their corporation remains valid.

So the only way to own post 86 items is to become a manufacturer, then maintain the SOT, or become a corporation.
 
So the only way to own post 86 items is to become a manufacturer, then maintain the SOT, or become a corporation.
Not exactly. The only way to own post-1986 machine guns is to become an FFL dealer or manufacturer and maintain an SOT. This allows you to get post-1986 “dealer samples” that are intended to be machine guns that the FFL demos for possible sale to a governmental entity.
 
I read "hso's" initial post and even printed it out, hoping to decipher things when I felt I had a clear mind. I've held an FFL since February 1969, after the 1968 Gun Control act edict that all those folks doing "gunsmithing" should have a license and keep bound records. Since then, I have had three (3) compliance checks by three (3) different ATF agents. All were very amicable, but they all had varying answers to some questions I had for them.
I had just gotten into assembling 1911 type pistols, buying the S/N'rd grip frames and going from there. One of the agents told me I was now a "manufacturer". I asked how so? Well, now you are manufacturing firearms for sale and need to become a licensed manufacturer at a cost of quite a lot more than I thought it should be. But, if a customer brings me a S/N'rd 1911 Caspian grip frame that they bought, that's all fine and dandy if I build the pistol from there.
Now, this guy trying to build a business from what I know and can do, is completely confused. I don't actually MAKE or manufacture any parts, including the grip frame, so how, on this side of Mars, am I doing any manufacturing? I'm just putting stuff together as the customer requests. Still, I would need, at least at that time, to fork out $1000.00 to hold a manufacturers license. So, I quit doing that and haven't since, unless a customer brings me a Colt Series 70 1911 that he wants stuff changed on it.
I keep explicit records of what comes in and goes out, I am involved with all the local LEO's in receiving confiscated firearms and transferring them to my bound books. Then the serial numbered part that's considered the "firearm" is completely destroyed and most all other parts become scrap items sent to the local scrap yard, of which I have a separate bound book and the last compliance agent liked to see.
So, I'm now at the point that those of us just doing gun repair, or some form of slight modification, be issued a separate license that doesn't involve bought firearms transfers. I suppose the Federal beau acracy is not ready for something like that at this time and I was completely amazed that my license was recently renewed for another 3 years, with how the current administration views us. Glad I'm getting close to retiring and calling OVER AND OUT!
 
I read "hso's" initial post and even printed it out, hoping to decipher things when I felt I had a clear mind. I've held an FFL since February 1969, after the 1968 Gun Control act edict that all those folks doing "gunsmithing" should have a license and keep bound records. Since then, I have had three (3) compliance checks by three (3) different ATF agents.
Three compliance inspections in fifty two years??????:scrutiny:
I just had my fourth in twelve years.


All were very amicable, but they all had varying answers to some questions I had for them.
Sounds normal. Never take the verbal answer, ask for the citation.


I had just gotten into assembling 1911 type pistols, buying the S/N'rd grip frames and going from there. One of the agents told me I was now a "manufacturer". I asked how so? Well, now you are manufacturing firearms for sale and need to become a licensed manufacturer at a cost of quite a lot more than I thought it should be.
That isn't anything new. Frankly I'm shocked you didn't know that.


But, if a customer brings me a S/N'rd 1911 Caspian grip frame that they bought, that's all fine and dandy if I build the pistol from there.
You assemble from your parts and frame/receiver it's manufacturing.
You assemble from parts and frame/receiver provided by the customer its gunsmithing.


Now, this guy trying to build a business from what I know and can do, is completely confused. I don't actually MAKE or manufacture any parts, including the grip frame, so how, on this side of Mars, am I doing any manufacturing?
Because ATF defines assembly as a manufacturing activity.



I'm just putting stuff together as the customer requests. Still, I would need, at least at that time, to fork out $1000.00 to hold a manufacturers license.
Says who? An 07FFL (Manufacturer) is no where close to $1000...............try $150 for your first three years.





So, I'm now at the point that those of us just doing gun repair, or some form of slight modification, be issued a separate license that doesn't involve bought firearms transfers.
An 07FFL (Manufacturer) can do everything an 01FFL (Dealer) can do PLUS manufacturing.



I suppose the Federal beau acracy is not ready for something like that at this time and I was completely amazed that my license was recently renewed for another 3 years, with how the current administration views us. Glad I'm getting close to retiring and calling OVER AND OUT!
Amazed? So am I.
I highly recommend you start reading everything at ATF.gov
FAQ's
Rulings
Open Letters
Regulations
 
Geeez, thanks for your tempered response. I don't believe I'll consider any advise from you. Been doing just fine all these 52 years. This is Wisconsin, NOT Texas, and maybe some folks NEED to have more frequent compliance checks, apparently I'm doing well enough in their eyes that I've only needed three.

An 07FFL (Manufacturer) can do everything an 01FFL (Dealer) can do PLUS manufacturing.

Well, sparky, you sure do if you are going to offer "short barreled shotguns" to be used as door breachers. :neener:
 
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Geeez, thanks for your tempered response. I don't believe I'll consider any advise from you.
Well, you better consider advise from someone........by your own admission you've been in violation of ATF regs/Federal law for quite some time.
I don't give a rats hiney if you ignore me, but please seek advise from someone.
By your own admission you don't know ATF regs.
Please dont take my comments as belittling you, I'm more ticked off at ATF for failing to ensure you were operating according to the regs.


Been doing just fine all these 52 years.
"Doing just fine"?:rofl: Dude, you've been manufacturing firearms for 52 years without an 07FFL. You didn't submit a single Form 2 in 52 years. You likely didn't engrave the required markings for 52 years.
In your case, yes, you did just fine because ATF didn't catch you until recently.




This is Wisconsin, NOT Texas, and maybe some folks NEED to have more frequent compliance checks, apparently I'm doing well enough in their eyes that I've only needed three.
Uh, Wisconsin FFL's have to follow the same ATF regs and federal law as any other state or US territory.
Compliance inspections are based on multiple factors, among them the number of transfers (acquisitions and dispositions) by the licensee. I had 2,200+ in 2020. Others are a high number of short "time to crime" guns, denied transfers and firearm traces. Many large gun stores will have a yearly compliance inspection. (ATF is limited to conducting one per year)

That you have only had three compliance inspections in 52 years has to be a record. I'll bet a hamburger that if ATF reads of three inspections in 52 years someone's gonna lose their job in Wisconsin. Not to mention ignoring your manufacturing activities during that time.
In FY 2020, there were 5,827 compliance inspections for 80,000 FFLs (not including collectors). Being that there are less than 800 IOI's at ATF, the chances of getting a compliance inspection every 3-5 years is normal. But three in 52 years? Unheard of.


"An 07FFL (Manufacturer) can do everything an 01FFL (Dealer) can do PLUS manufacturing."

Well, sparky, you sure do if you are going to offer "short barreled shotguns" to be used as door breachers. :neener:
Is that your plan? From your post above it reads as you do not currently hold an 07FFL.
Wow.
 
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You don't know squat about what I've been doing for 52 years and certainly don't know what you write about. DUDE. I don't need to have as many compliance checks as you do, are you having problems whereby they need to visit you every three years? ATF feels I'm doing just fine and it's all been without your lousy advice, I wonder why that is? Drop it, I don't need your, or anyone elses advice on how to do my business, so stick your nose into some one else's who requires your quips. I don't. Nuff written, go meddle in some other posts. DUDE. I just got my license renewed, so I'm GOOD for another 3 years at what I do. :neener: Whine to someone else, I'm done with you, DUDE.
You are now actually the ONLY DUDE I have on ignore here. Have a GREAT day.
 
You don't know squat about what I've been doing for 52 years
Sir........you told us what you've been doing: "....I had just gotten into assembling 1911 type pistols, buying the S/N'rd grip frames and going from there..."



and certainly don't know what you write about.
Yet I'm not the one who was wholly ignorant of what constitutes manufacturing: "One of the agents told me I was now a "manufacturer". I asked how so? Well, now you are manufacturing firearms for sale and need to become a licensed manufacturer at a cost of quite a lot more than I thought it should be. "

So in addition to not knowing what FFL is required to manufacture, you believe the cost of an 07FFL to be a lot more than you thought it should be: ".....Still, I would need, at least at that time, to fork out $1000.00 to hold a manufacturers license. "
Where you got $1000 is anyones guess. Its actually cheaper than an 01FFL.


But hey, you know more than the rest of us, keep on doing you.:rofl:
Comedy gold this is.
 
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