Finn M39 - What do I have?

[WardenWolf]

I recently picked up a Finn M39 at a local gun store. It's a hex receiver, but the only markings on it are the serial number and the date, 1970. All other markings have been scrubbed, with no trace of any original Russian information.

Anyone able to tell me more?

Pics at the bottom, or click here: http://imgur.com/a/VZTcj

 

[AzShooter1]

It's a Mosin Nagant that was reworked by the Finnish. They took a decent rifle and improved on it. Better trigger setup, newer barrel.

The Finn is a much better rifle than the MN. It should shoot real well for you.

 

[dh1633pm]

Post a pic and we'll be able to tell you a whole lot more. The VKT stamp is like the "US" stamp on our rifles. But there is more to tell.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

1970 makes it a "late date" M39. I'm told these were built for marksmanship training for officers and such. They didn't get many stamps for whatever reason, that's just how those rifles are. The bonus is it has about the newest barrel on any Mosin. I've got a 1968 rifle and it shoots wonderfully.

 

[Ash]

There are newer barrels, but that is the gist of things. It is an officer training rifle. The equivalent here would be if the Marine Corps were to have had 1903's manufactured in the late 1960's for officer training at Quantico.

They are true M39's. The barrels may even, perhaps most likely were, blanks made during the war by FN, SAKO, Tikka, or VKT (Valmet). They are among the rarer M39's encountered and command a premium over standard rifles (of course, Tikka and SkY 39's also command a premium).

 

[benEzra]

1970 is the barrel date. The receiver date is on the bottom of the receiver (if not defaced). For example, mine has a 1942 VKT barrel, but the receiver was made in 1905; IIRC the receiver date stamp is the last 3 digits of the year of manufacture. I think hex receivers tend to be pretty old, but I'd have to go look that up (mine's a hex).

M39's are widely regarded as the best shooters of all the Mosin-Nagants. The Finns put a lot of work into the barrels and trigger, and the stock to receiver fitting.

A good reference is Rifles of the White Death by Doug Bowser.

 

[WardenWolf]

I'm guessing I got a good deal at $350, then. I see one in similar condition on Gunbroker for $455 with 17 bids.

I knew a fair bit about M39's before, but the lack of markings threw me. Either way, the condition was so nice that I couldn't pass it up. I'd ordered one of those refurbished M1903's off AIM Surplus and it was in the gun store when I went to pick it up. It was too nice to leave behind.

Only issue is that it seems to have an overly stiff bolt, but I'm pretty sure it's due to the firing pin spring being too strong. It's definitely a lot stronger than my 1943 Izhevsk M91/30's spring. I took a chamber brush to it, with no effect.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

I'm guessing I got a good deal at $350, then. I see one in similar condition on Gunbroker for $455 with 17 bids.

Yes, you did well.

As a side note, I don't believe the Finns ever made a single Mosin receiver. When they kicked the Russians out, they siezed a bunch of rifles (like 100's of thousands), then later acquired more as "spoils of war". Then the Finns just upgraded their Russian guns with better barrels, sights, stocks and triggers.

 

[DMK]

I've heard that these late M39s were called "Sneaks" for some reason. Regardless of whether the term is correct or not, it gives you a unique name to search on in the forums or Google.

I have one made in 1970 and it shoot beautifully.


http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/finnfaq.asp

What is a "sneak rifle"?

A "sneak rifle" is a term that has become popular here in the USA to describe the later made (1960's-1970's) dated M39 rifles. The term is not really correct as it came into being on incorrect information based on a believed ban on SAKO's production of military rifles. The basis for this term is entirely incorrect but has become accepted by some. Many collectors will not use this term and do not like this term, and I happen to be one of them.

 

[WardenWolf]

Ever seen an M39 with an overly stiff bolt? I'm pretty sure the cause is the spring, as it's much stronger when pulled straight back than my M91/30, but I don't know for sure. I used a .308 chamber brush on it with no improvement. It's bad enough that I may need to have a gunsmith smooth it out.

 

[DMK]

Ever seen an M39 with an overly stiff bolt? I'm pretty sure the cause is the spring, as it's much stronger when pulled straight back than my M91/30, but I don't know for sure. I used a .308 chamber brush on it with no improvement. It's bad enough that I may need to have a gunsmith smooth it out.

Stiff when pulled back, or stiff when rotated to unlock? With or without a round chambered?

A rough chamber can cause some difficulty unlocking, but only after a round has been fired.

Have you disassembled the bolt and given it a good cleaning? It could have some dried cosmoline in there.

You could try swapping bolts with your 91/30 just to see if there's any improvement in cycling the action. Don't fire a round though, headspace could be different.

 

[WardenWolf]

Stiff when rotated to cock or unlock, with no round chambered. The rifle was marked by the previous owner as "Cleaned and greased 2008" (it was a consignment gun). The bolt was perfectly clean. I oiled it up with CLP, with no real improvement.

I'll post pictures when I get home.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Excellent find OP. The M39s are ridiculously better than the standard Russian M91/30s. They took a pig and crafted it into one of the finest military rifles in human history.

 

[WardenWolf]

Pics, as requested:





I bought the correct Finnish sling for it off Ebay. Just an FYI, putting one of those slings on is a royal pain in the butt. The buckle is too small for the thickness of the strap, and you have to force it through to get it started.

 

[caribou]

Nice Late M-39.

There were two separate manufacturer's of the M-39

SAKO manufactured alll parts ,barrels too, except the reciver for the Finn Civil Guards M-28/30 Mosin.
The Finn Armys plant at Valmet,(VTK) with "Tikka" Tikkakoskoi manufactured barrels.They made a type called the M-27

The Civil Guard and the Army decided to manufacture one model at both factorys, the M-39. By far the most excellent Mosin variation ever....

After WWII ,in compliance to Soviet peace terms, SAKO was sold to the Red Cross and started making other things, Valmet (VTK) did service work to existing military weapons, refurbishing what rifles need it.
In the past I've owned many Finns, and while the stocks and outter fitting could be burned, scarred, gouged and chuncked off, if the bre was in really good shape, and it worked, they kept it. I have never seen a Finn Mosin straight from the importer have a bad bore, ever, no matter what the outside looked like. They were only interested in accurate rifle.


"Sneak" rifle was a term an importer coined to explain the lack of manufacturer's markings, because the Russians had imposed strict arms limitations for their WWII peace negotiations. But its not true, in the 'sneak' sense...because in 1962 they adopted and began manufacture their own version of the AK-47, openly, with the Finns, again making a drop dead rugged design better...

The general idea Ive heard from Finn sources was that these rifles were built buy students in Finn military/manufacturers armorers schools, with every detail attended to untill they were target grade. Made up from parts and barrels that had not been assembled before the M-39 manufacture was discontinued.

Some have barrels made in Belgium (IIrc) and with a bit more nickel in the barrel that gives a nice "plumb' color for a finish, rather than blue.

I, personally consitter it the ultimate bolt action Arctic hunting/fighting rifle. Accurate as the get out, as long as good ammo and a good shooter do their job. With time and use, the action and the sling will break in and slide as smooth as can be

You have scored a Rifleman's rifle. get some quality ammo and a cleaning kit, a book on the type and time for shooting.....

 

[Clark]

I paid $90 on a gunshow table in 2004 for a 1944 *Sako VKT M39 with hex receiver.

That was the easy part. Figuring out it was a Westinghouse made receiver (1915-18) from the proof marks was the hard part.

i milled out an AR15 riser to make a scope mount.

I fired a few shots; 0.47" 3 shot group at 50 yards.
I own a lot of surplus rifles, and not many shoot like that.

 

[WardenWolf]

The bore on mine is absolutely pristine. I think I got a good deal. Nearly perfect wood and excellent overall condition for only $350.

 

[Clark]

You got a great deal at $350 in that condition M39.
Verify that by trying to find another one.

I found a minty 1928 Rem model 12 pump 22 for $550, as he walked into the gunshow parking lot.
How do I know that was good deal?
Try to find another one.

The collectors only sell from the bottom end of their collections.

 

[WardenWolf]

You got a great deal at $350 in that condition M39.
Verify that by trying to find another one.

I found a minty 1928 Rem model 12 pump 22 for $550, as he walked into the gunshow parking lot.
How do I know that was good deal?
Try to find another one.

The collectors only sell from the bottom end of their collections.

Yup, they're going for $450+ on Gunbroker for ones in equivalent condition. I knew it was a fair price to pay when I saw it, knowing what even M38 carbines go for. I couldn't get it the same day as my other rifle, as I was out of money, but I told myself that if it was still there when I came back the next week (after my credit card rolled over) I was taking it home with me. It was, and that's that.

Knowing the value of various guns comes in handy. At my urging, my father back in Phoenix picked up a low serial number M1903 for $350 at a local auction. I knew the gun was worth around $700. He wound up trading straight across for a Winchester 1894 in .30-30 at the gun show, which was the gun he REALLY wanted. He definitely traded up on that one.

 

[caribou]

If the bolt is not smooth whilst opening or closeing the bolt, you should #1 look for wear marks where its binding, if it is, and look at the sear /cocking pice engaugment, as well as the camming area onthe cocking piece. IT should be smooth and lightly oiled. This is where the firing pin is brought back whilst opening the bolt.
An ill fitted extractor can bind too, so look for rub/wear marks on it and the chamber face.

A bit of stoning or polishing can really help, if you find problems at/on these areas.

 

[WardenWolf]

If the bolt is not smooth whilst opening or closeing the bolt, you should #1 look for wear marks where its binding, if it is, and look at the sear /cocking pice engaugment, as well as the camming area onthe cocking piece. IT should be smooth and lightly oiled. This is where the firing pin is brought back whilst opening the bolt.
An ill fitted extractor can bind too, so look for rub/wear marks on it and the chamber face.

A bit of stoning or polishing can really help, if you find problems at/on these areas.

Thanks. I just grabbed my M91/30's bolt and swapped the M39's bolt head onto it, and tried it. The problem did not occur with the M91/30 bolt body. This means the problem is in the bolt body of the M39. I've looked at the camming surfaces and they look identical between the guns. Both are perfectly smooth. And the M39's sear / cocking piece engagement is fine. I honestly think the problem is just that the firing pin spring on the M39 is too strong. It's definitely stronger than the one on the M91/30. I'll order a Mosin firing pin spring from Numrich and see if that fixes it.

 

[Ash]

Well, swap them out and confirm it. It'll take you 5 minutes worth of testing to know for a fact if it is the spring.

 

[WardenWolf]

Well, swap them out and confirm it. It'll take you 5 minutes worth of testing to know for a fact if it is the spring.

I'm not taking both bolts fully apart to swap the springs. Not worth the effort and (albeit minor) risk of breaking a firing pin. It takes just a moment to swap the heads (remove the bolt, and rotate the cocking piece slightly beyond where it would normally be when cocked), but the spring requires more work. If I take a bolt apart, I want it to be to replace the spring outright.

 

[Capybara]

You're going to love shooting it. Some M39 collectors start their collection with the entire modern "No Maker" run, 1967 to 1972, I think? There were also "No Maker - No Date" rifles that are even rarer. Great guns.

I bought this one two years ago from Pat Burns for $350.00, I think M39s will eventually be like K98 Mausers and worth more in the $800.00 - $1,100.00 range.

Below is my 1968 No Maker. It came with the barrel band on backwards, I have yet to take it apart to flip it over.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

I'm not taking both bolts fully apart to swap the springs. Not worth the effort and (albeit minor) risk of breaking a firing pin. It takes just a moment to swap the heads (remove the bolt, and rotate the cocking piece slightly beyond where it would normally be when cocked), but the spring requires more work. If I take a bolt apart, I want it to be to replace the spring outright.

After removing the bolt head, the only work to remove the firing pin is to unscrew it.

If you don't have one of the funny little Russian tools to unscrew the firing pin and check firing pin protrusion on reassembly, I'd get one. Very handy, I use it whenever working on my Mosin bolts.