Firearm Serial No. Concern

[Allysman4evr_90]

Greetings fellow firearm enthusiasts. This is my first post as a new member. Hoping someone has wisdom regarding my specific concern. I've owned a SW M&P .40 for the last 16 yrs, using it off & on in private security work during that time. It has been in & out of several duty holsters. Here is my dilemma: While cleaning after a recent range use I noticed 4 of the 7 SN digits have become unreadable due to what I'm assuming to be normal wear. The SN plate is located just under the slide, next to the slide release. I'm at a loss as to how this could've occurred. I've always kept it properly cleaned and stored. Now... my gunsmith refuses to service this weapon due to the compromised SN. I showed it to my local Sheriff but they will not assist in restoration. My Concealed Carry legal guy (U.S. LawShield) never even heard of this problem. I was advised to notify ATF for restoration questions but have yet to do that. I don't feel comfortable carrying this firearm now so, it remains secured in my safe... for now. I love this gun but am now worried about legal ramifications should I be contacted by PD after a self-defense incident with this weapon as it will become confiscated evidence. I really don't want to be labeled an intentional SN defacer. Any wisdom or advice is appreciated. FYI... I still possess the original DROS paperwork for this pistol.

 

[Spats McGee]

Possession of a "defaced" firearm is very bad, indeed. It's a felony in Arkansas, and I doubt we're alone in that. I have a couple of ideas: (1) contact S&W and see if they can assist you in restoration; and (2) contact an attorney versed in federal and state gun laws, as well as criminal law. That way, if ATF must be contacted, it can be done via the attorney.

 

[MEHavey]

contact an attorney

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^
1st step, go from there

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

Possession of a "defaced" firearm is very bad, indeed. It's a felony in Arkansas, and I doubt we're alone in that. I have a couple of ideas: (1) contact S&W and see if they can assist you in restoration; and (2) contact an attorney versed in federal and state gun laws, as well as criminal law. That way, if ATF must be contacted, it can be done via the attorney.

I've already been in contact with S&W and they have no recourse regarding my situation. I addressed this matter with the Under Sheriff in my county, who just so happened to be my CCW instructor. He simply advised me to keep the weapon secured until such time the SN could be restored and/or legally re-certified. I'm located in Colorado btw. Both the Sheriffs office and my CCW legal guy stated that I can't be charged for possession of a firearm with legitimate SN wear. My concern is locating someone who can "legally" recover the faded digits.

 

[AlexanderA]

The 4 worn digits may be unreadable by the naked eye, but that doesn't mean that they're unreadable by the specialized equipment available to law enforcement.

I assume you have a record of what the serial number originally was. Just go with that, and if some law enforcement officer challenges it, ask them to read it using their specialized equipment.

You do not want to make an effort to "restore" the numbers. That could be seen as "serial number tampering." Natural wear is not tampering.

 

[InTheSwamp]

The 4 worn digits may be unreadable by the naked eye, but that doesn't mean that they're unreadable by the specialized equipment available to law enforcement.

That is correct. Unless you grind it, those numbers will be readable by specialized equipment.

 

[MEHavey]

Again, see SPATS above.

No matter what can be done,
an attorney can keep from you from
straying to close to either Scylla or Charybdis

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

The 4 worn digits may be unreadable by the naked eye, but that doesn't mean that they're unreadable by the specialized equipment available to law enforcement.

I assume you have a record of what the serial number originally was. Just go with that, and if some law enforcement officer challenges it, ask them to read it using their specialized equipment.

You do not want to make an effort to "restore" the numbers. That could be seen as "serial number tampering." Natural wear is not tampering.

All that makes sense, however, my Sheriff will not avail it's lab (specialized equip) for that use. I've been told that someone expert in the process of grinding down the SN Plate to get underneath the displayed digits could detect readable digits. Question is, who in Colorado, preferably close to me, can legally perform that task.

 

[MEHavey]

Please... don't play this game on your own,
or from "Internet Solution"

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

Please... don't play this game on your own,
or from "Internet Solution"

I get what you're saying. I'm just interested in whatever feedback can best direct my next move. I guess I'll try and consult a local atty, hopefully one who knows firearm law.

 

[InTheSwamp]

That is correct. Unless you grind it, those numbers will be readable by specialized equipment.

^^^
That is not an "Internet Solution", but a value free technical assessment.

Consult a lawyer as advised above by a lawyer.

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

The 4 worn digits may be unreadable by the naked eye, but that doesn't mean that they're unreadable by the specialized equipment available to law enforcement.

I assume you have a record of what the serial number originally was. Just go with that, and if some law enforcement officer challenges it, ask them to read it using their specialized equipment.

You do not want to make an effort to "restore" the numbers. That could be seen as "serial number tampering." Natural wear is not tampering.

 

[Spats McGee]

I've already been in contact with S&W and they have no recourse regarding my situation. I addressed this matter with the Under Sheriff in my county, who just so happened to be my CCW instructor. He simply advised me to keep the weapon secured until such time the SN could be restored and/or legally re-certified. I'm located in Colorado btw. Both the Sheriffs office and my CCW legal guy stated that I can't be charged for possession of a firearm with legitimate SN wear. My concern is locating someone who can "legally" recover the faded digits.

Please do not confuse "shouldn't be convicted" with "can't be charged." It's a little like the old saying, "You might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Let me add that I say this, knowing that: (a) I'm not licensed in your jx; and (b) I don't have a clue about your "CCW legal guy" and his qualifications.

The 4 worn digits may be unreadable by the naked eye, but that doesn't mean that they're unreadable by the specialized equipment available to law enforcement.

I assume you have a record of what the serial number originally was. Just go with that, and if some law enforcement officer challenges it, ask them to read it using their specialized equipment.

You do not want to make an effort to "restore" the numbers. That could be seen as "serial number tampering." Natural wear is not tampering.

While the bolded & underlined part may technically be true, it may or may not be a defense to a charge of possessing a defaced firearm. If I were to go out and actually grind the serial number off of my gun, LE's specialized equipment may still be able to read the serial number, but (at least in AR), I could still be convicted of a felony for either defacing the number &/or possessing a defaced firearm.

 

[LiveLife]

I've already been in contact with S&W and they have no recourse regarding my situation.

Really? Perhaps you asked the wrong question.

Many gun manufacturers have replaced damaged frames/slides under warranty well documented by THR members for years. I would contact S&W again for affected frame/slide replacement ... You may end up with different serial numbers and may pay for replacement but you will end up with a legal firearm.

I am not sure if this 16 year wear to remove 4 of 7 serial numbers would be covered by S&W warranty or whether S&W would charge you for replacement cost but you can always ask.

This from S&W warranty page - https://www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/warranty

Smith & Wesson’s Lifetime Service Policy begins after the warranty period has expired.​

​

... Smith & Wesson will not be responsible for ... ordinary wear and tear, or unreasonable use​

 

[Frulk]

Forgo all the legal worries and consulting a lawyer.

It’s an M&P….a common tool you use for your job. If you REALLY like it then buy another one, save the slide for parts and destroy the frame. Think of it this way… by not consulting a lawyer you’re probably getting the gun at around 50% off.

Problem solved.

 

[AlexanderA]

All that makes sense, however, my Sheriff will not avail it's lab (specialized equip) for that use. I've been told that someone expert in the process of grinding down the SN Plate to get underneath the displayed digits could detect readable digits. Question is, who in Colorado, preferably close to me, can legally perform that task.

This procedure (reading unreadable numbers) would come into play after the case enters the criminal justice system. I doubt that any law enforcement agency would spend its limited resources giving "advisory opinions." If it were me, I would do nothing (just continue using the gun normally) until its legality was actually questioned. It should be obvious to anyone looking at the gun that the numbers disappeared due to wear, and not to grinding. Sounds to me that this is all "a tempest in a tea pot."

Another factor is that Colorado is a reasonable jurisdiction, not like DC or Maryland, where they would use any excuse to "throw the book" at a gun owner.

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

Please do not confuse "shouldn't be convicted" with "can't be charged." It's a little like the old saying, "You might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Let me add that I say this, knowing that: (a) I'm not licensed in your jx; and (b) I don't have a clue about your "CCW legal guy" and his qualifications.

While the bolded & underlined part may technically be true, it may or may not be a defense to a charge of possessing a defaced firearm. If I were to go out and actually grind the serial number off of my gun, LE's specialized equipment may still be able to read the serial number, but (at least in AR), I could still be convicted of a felony for either defacing the number &/or possessing a defaced firearm.

My "CCW Legal guy" was an attorney from U.S. LawShield (similar to the USCCA). He just advised me to refrain from carrying the gun until such point the SN is legally authenticated. Other than that he had no answers. Provable wear & tear is not a criminal offense.

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

Really? Perhaps you asked the wrong question.

Many gun manufacturers have replaced damaged frames/slides under warranty well documented by THR members for years. I would contact S&W again for affected frame/slide replacement ... You may end up with different serial numbers and may pay for replacement but you will end up with a legal firearm.

I am not sure if this 16 year wear to remove 4 of 7 serial numbers would be covered by S&W warranty or whether S&W would charge you for replacement cost but you can always ask.

This from S&W warranty page - https://www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/warranty

Smith & Wesson’s Lifetime Service Policy begins after the warranty period has expired.​

​

... Smith & Wesson will not be responsible for ... ordinary wear and tear, or unreasonable use​

When I reached out to S&W, via their email, I briefed them on the weapon history (purchase date, etc..) and SN details. I asked them what they offered in the way of restorative options to which they replied the following:

"We thank you for your e-mail and for contacting Smith & Wesson today.

We are not able to remark the serial number on that firearm. We would recommend that you reach out to the ATF for guidence.

Thank You for choosing Smith & Wesson products. Have a great day.

Regards, Steve"

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

Forgo all the legal worries and consulting a lawyer.

It’s an M&P….a common tool you use for your job. If you REALLY like it then buy another one, save the slide for parts and destroy the frame. Think of it this way… by not consulting a lawyer you’re probably getting the gun at around 50% off.

Problem solved.

Believe me.. I did consider that. All I'm trying to do is find out what my cheaper options are before shelling out another $500. I have other carry options at my disposal.

 

[Allysman4evr_90]

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^
1st step, go from there

Reached out to an attorney in my town who, among other specialties, has experience in criminal defense. Waiting to hear back from his office regarding any firearm laws & regs knowledge he may possess

 

[AlexanderA]

"We thank you for your e-mail and for contacting Smith & Wesson today.

We are not able to remark the serial number on that firearm. We would recommend that you reach out to the ATF for guidance."

It's understandable that S&W would not want to "re-mark" the firearm. That could be construed as "tampering" with the serial number.

However, the number should not disappear through normal wear and tear. Because it did, there was some problem with the design or the materials S&W used. If they want to stand behind their product (for the sake of their reputation), they should at least offer to replace the offending receiver, either free or for a nominal charge.

That's the approach I would take with S&W.

 

[heyjoe]

call smith and wesson dont email.

 

[CapnMac]

This is my first post as a new member.

Well, first off, Greetings. Please feel free to go visit the New Members Introduction page. And the THR Primer, too.

This is a very complicated question. Not at all helps by the confused nature of CO laws about firearms. Nor by the recent case in WV where serial number laws were held to violate Bruen (said case not having advanced out of District Court so far).

Our Spats, wise legal solon that he is, nailed the best answer . If not necessarily the most economical.

Under 18 USC 922 (k) (emphasis added):

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Which puts you firmly between rock and hard place. You can't sell the arm, nor even pawn it, under Federal law. Why S&W is stonewalling what ought to be a "repair" is likely due to their Legal Department worrying that they could be liable under 18 USC 922(K) under the "or to posess or receive" provision.

The intersection of Colorado Law and Federal law will want an attorney able to practice in CO.

It's rather a grim welcome to you.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Closed.

Engaging an attorney is really the OP's only prudent recourse.

In my research on the issue I never saw a published case which addressed the way the serial number was defaced (e. g., wear or accident as opposed to intentional tampering). But let's look at a little federal law on the subject:

• See 18 USC 922(k), emphasis added:
  
  ​

  (k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

  
  
  
• As federal courts have held, affirming convictions for violations of 18 USC 922(k):
  
  • U.S. v. Horey, 36 F.3d 1106 (C.A.10 (Okl.), 1993):
    
    ​

    ...We turn to defendant's argument that his conviction for violating 18 U.S.C. 922(k) was also based on insufficient evidence. Defendant argues the government failed to sufficiently show that the revolver's serial number was removed, obliterated, or altered. He asserts the statute does not reach serial numbers that are still readable.
    
    Police officers testified that the serial number was obliterated. In addition, an expert in firearms and tool mark examination testified the revolver's serial number was partially obscured or obliterated. The examiner also noted that it was possible one or two additional serial numbers were completely obliterated. Based on the clear language of 922(k), we reject defendant's argument that the statute does not reach the firearm recovered by the police in this case. The evidence is sufficient to sustain the conviction, and we AFFIRM the jury's verdict....

    
    
    
  • See also U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (Fed. 1st Cir., 2002)(emphasis added):
    
    ​

    ...As for the evidence, that was clearly sufficient once it is understood that any alteration that works against legibility is enough; ...The pistol was presented to the jury. The case agent testified at trial that he could read the six digits of the serial number but with difficulty. At oral argument, Adams's counsel asked that this court examine the original pistol, and we now report the results.
    
    ...
    
    Of course, judgment as to the degree of impairment was for the jury. But a reasonable jury could easily conclude that this pistol had been altered so as to make it appreciably more difficult to read the serial number. Indeed, a reasonable jury could hardly reach any other conclusion...