First muzzleloader for a new hunter

[BullpupBen]

Hi all, so I have never been hunting before but really want to take up deer hunting. I figure it will be best to buy a muzzleloader so I can hunt in the early-season where deer are most plentiful. I also like the idea of having one of these guns to expand my collection as well as my knowledge base and I'm impressed with how cheap they are.
So I need your help in choosing a gun which will be highly effective against deer. A few notes:
-I hate plastic although could conceive buying a synthetic gun if there are no alternatives in wood.
-I prefer the more traditional style of flint/percussion locks but have no problem going with a more modern design for a first rifle, especially if they provide a serious advantage.
-I would prefer the ability to mount a scope on the rifle

Here's a few which have caught my eye, any good?

CVA Elkhorn 209 "Magnum:"
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/s..._64181_425010001_425000000_425010000_425-10-1

Traditions Deerhunter Percussion w/ wood furniture:
http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=R36108101

A few more questions:

1. Are muzzleloaders significantly harder to hunt with than bolt-action centerfires?

2. What are the disadvantages of percussion of flint-locked rifles compared to in-line rifles?

3. What brands would you recommend? My favorite, based only on looks, has been traditions muzzle loaders because of their old-fashioned style but I have no idea as to whether or not these guns are accurate, durable, and reliable.

4. What is the recoil on a typical deer load comparable to? I am not recoil sensitive, but just want to know what to expect.

5. Would a Nikon 3-9x40 Prohunter scope work well or should I get the 2-7x Shotgun scope instead?

 

[arcticap]

1. Muzzle loaders require some study to become familiar with the more intricate loading and cleaning procedures required to maximize their potential and for safety reasons.
So yes, it's more difficult to learn, but once that's out of the way it becomes quite simple.
They're not really harder to hunt with, only more difficult to learn all about the different types.

2. Inlines are more reliable and generally more accurate shooting with conical bullets and saboted bullets.
Traditional guns usually shoot less expensive round balls, are easier to load and the ammo is cheaper to shoot. They're better for plinking and casual target shooting, but some can still shoot conicals and sabots reasonably well to 75 yards or more while others can only shoot patched round balls well.
Traditional guns are slightly more prone to misfires, but inlines usually require swabbing between loading each shot or 2 or else they lose accuracy and become much tougher to load.
Inlines are more efficient for hunting and allow for easier scope mounting, irrespective of the ignition system.
Traditional guns are not as weatherproof generally speaking, but can be just as satisfying to hunt with if not more so simply because they don't offer the longer range accuracy and present more of a hunting challenge.
Learn your state hunting laws for restrictions on gun types, bullet types and scope use if any.

3. All of the brands are fairly good for the price. Specific models vary but price is usually a relative indicator of better quality. But economical beginner rifles do offer great value, especially to minimize overspending unnecesarily just to enter the sport.
Lots of accessories are needed to start off, so cheaper guns are worth the introductory training they provide and can be just as much fun. Sometimes more so because they do cost less! Buy more guns and related accessories with the savings!

4. The felt recoil is very dependent on the weight of the gun. The reviews of the Elkhorn indicate that it's recoil is not excessive because of the soft recoil pad, plus the extra weight with the scope. It's usually significantly less felt recoil than a 12 gauge slug shotgun, unless loading the powder to 150 grains along with very heavy bullets. 777 powder does kick harder so just use 15% less volume as the manufacturer recommends. That's what's nice about muzzle loaders, the shooter controls the amount of powder. 100 grains of any powder is usually plenty and very tolerable, but some muzzle rise can still be expected.

5. It's usually preferable to have a scope with a little extra eye relief to avoid scope eye injury. 4 inches of eye relief is probably a little safer than 3.5 inches, but that's based on personal preference and the length of the scope once mounted in the rings. Plus most hunters are wearing a jacket during cold weather deer seasons. At 3.8 - 3.9 inches, the eye relief on the Nikon shotgun scope makes it a good one for muzzle loading.

And that Elkhorn looks like it has some nice features too!

Good luck with which ever gun you do decide to buy.

 

[mykeal]

1. Are muzzleloaders significantly harder to hunt with than bolt-action centerfires?

As a hunter safety instructor for muzzleloading, I have a little different perspective on this question, and my answer is yes, it is harder. Quite beyond the issue of learning how to use the hardware, which is significant (remember, each time you load the gun you are building the round from scratch) there is the simple fact that you need to be closer to your target and hit the target more accurately. Your hunting skills must be more developed. You only get one shot, and your obligation to make a humane kill still exists.

2. What are the disadvantages of percussion of flint-locked rifles compared to in-line rifles?

Flintlocks are more difficult to shoot as they are more complex - there's more involved in getting quick and reliable ignition. If not done right they can produce a delay between pan powder ignition and the main charge ignition that can alert the target and make for a bad shot. I see little difference between sidelock and inline percussion in terms of reliability or ease of use, even in inclement weather. Inline rifles do present a generally better platform for optics.

3. What brands would you recommend? My favorite, based only on looks, has been traditions muzzle loaders because of their old-fashioned style but I have no idea as to whether or not these guns are accurate, durable, and reliable.

For an inline muzzleloader I recommend the Remington 700; my recommendation for traditional sidelocks would be Lyman first (Great Plains Hunter, Great Plains Rifle, Great Plains Trade Rifle - which is a matter of personal choice) and Thompson Center's Hawken next. Very little to choose between, all are excellent. Traditions sells some very nice guns, but Lyman and Thompson Center are my favorites.

4. What is the recoil on a typical deer load comparable to? I am not recoil sensitive, but just want to know what to expect.

Significantly less than a typical centerfire rifle. However, you can increase the load to where it's comparable. A waste of powder in my opinion.

5. Would a Nikon 3-9x40 Prohunter scope work well or should I get the 2-7x Shotgun scope instead?

articap's advice is better than mine on this subject. I wouldn't put a scope on a traditional muzzleloader.

 

[SeekHer]

Recoil isn't anywhere near as powerful as blackpowder is a much slower explosive then smokeless powder...A typical muzzleloader is .50 cal or .54 cal and think of the energy that a .500 NE expands compared to them...It's all in what makes it go boom...

The reaction is more of a push then a punch.

In-lines offer two things--better optics setup and a synthetic stock for better accuracy--nothing more then a Hawken style percussion cap model will...Oh, and because of rifle twist the ability to shoot sabots and "modern" bullets--which are far more accurate and usually harder hitting then a round ball would ever be!

One thing not mentioned enough is the lag time on guns with the flintlock being the slowest and in-lines being the fastest and as mentioned above can cause you to miss or make a bad hit on an animal...

As to being able to fine tune your gun to the exact firing point by adjusting the powder charge is easier as no equipment is needed but that is the major principle behind reloading (and reduced cost of ammo) but you need so much equipment to do so...

Optics--there are muzzleloading scope models out there but you can use a shotgun scope as well--ranges and trajectory are nearly, almost, about equal but that doesn't mean you can't use another scope that you have laying around.

Welcome to the fold! Soon you'll be coveting a .69 trade musket, and a "Kentucky" style .36, a Hawken .54 and maybe a Brown Bess for some re-enactments in full uniform with the B. A. R.

 

[SeekHer]

I forgot, you might want to try looking at the Thompson/Center line of single shot rifles as you can swich barrels from center or rimfire, shotgun or BP.

This way you can have a rifle for the regular season as well by just replacing the barrel, add a varmint barrel and a .45/70 and your good for everything.

Additional barrels can be gotten from:
E. Arthur Brown
Bullberry
SSK Industries

Stock Work from:
Dave van Horn
Denzel Roberts
Ol Georgia Jim
Otter Custom Stocks

Specific T/C smithing from:
Mike Bellm
K. T. S.

 

[arcticap]

The Traditions Deerhunter is factory drilled & tapped for mounting a scope, but the stock fit won't be as ergonomic as most inlines are.

 

[BullpupBen]

Thanks a ton for all the help guys, you've really answered pretty much all my questions about these guns.

I'm not a big fan of the Thompsons Encores because while the idea is nice, its $600 for a single-shot that's not particularly good-looking, and for the price of a new barrel i could just buy a new rifle.

I think I'll go with a modern inline for the time being, and if I feel I'm skilled enough buy a more traditional type in a few years.

Also the CVA "magnum" rifle I linked to has a pretty fast twist rate for a muzzleloader- its 1-28." Will this mean that bullets launched from lesser powder charges or regular patched ball bullets will not fly as well with it?

And are most outdoor ranges fine with the shooting of muzzleloaders?

 

[mykeal]

In-lines offer two things--...because of rifle twist the ability to shoot sabots and "modern" bullets--which are far more accurate and usually harder hitting then a round ball would ever be!

I can't agree with that; the faster twist in most inlines is designed to shoot saboted conical projectiles and the combination is more accurate and harder hitting at long ranges (over 100 yards), but your characterization as 'far more accurate and usually harder hitting than a round ball would ever be" is overstating the difference in my opinion. Round balls from slow twist guns can be at least as accurate and hard hitting, if not superior in both measures, at shorter ranges. And it is possible to shoot accurate round ball loads in fast twist barrels with lower powder loads, while the opposite is not true with saboted conicals in slow twist barrels.

[QUOTE="BullpupBen'']Also the CVA "magnum" rifle I linked to has a pretty fast twist rate for a muzzleloader- its 1-28." Will this mean that bullets launched from lesser powder charges or regular patched ball bullets will not fly as well with it?

And are most outdoor ranges fine with the shooting of muzzleloaders?[/QUOTE]

1:28 should pose no problem for low to moderate loads regardless of the projectile.

In my experience outdoor ranges rarely restrict the use of black powder guns, but it's not unheard of.

 

[SeekHer]

Originally Posted by mykeal

I can't agree with that; the faster twist in most inlines is designed to shoot saboted conical projectiles and the combination is more accurate and harder hitting at long ranges (over 100 yards), but your characterization as 'far more accurate and usually harder hitting than a round ball would ever be" is overstating the difference in my opinion. Round balls from slow twist guns can be at least as accurate and hard hitting, if not superior in both measures, at shorter ranges. And it is possible to shoot accurate round ball loads in fast twist barrels with lower powder loads, while the opposite is not true with saboted conicals in slow twist barrels.

The sabot or modern projectile will do one thing that a round ball cannot and will not do at any velocity and that is expand and because of the way it grips the barrel, which effects spin, causes them to be more accurate at any range. Expansion leads to faster, cleaner kills and that is all I'm after. My family meat hunts not trophy hunts so we'll take does, preferred, if permitted.

I shoot percussion and/or flint muzzleloaders in various re-enactments from F&I War to American Civil War and have the corresponding guns to the eras involved and from both sides of the conflicts, primarily British.

I've hunted with a flint and a cap rifle and have now progressed up to inline...In both versions traditional or modern I've killed deer (30 & 10) and 1 moose and 1 black bear with traditional guns. 90% of my kills were within bow range, under 50 yards but where we're hunting now, the clearings are getting bigger and the occasional 100 yard shot has to be taken.

For target shooting I have usually about 1/2 to 3/8 my hunting load for accuracy but why would I want to do so for hunting...it would only wound the animal...that's why I went with fast twist, inlines firing sabots over heavy loads for the beasties that sit at 125 yards that I wouldn't dare shoot at with my round ball loads.

I’m not saying that round balls are inaccurate I’m just saying that modern projectiles are more accurate. Both will kill, as I seen first hand, but I really think that the modern bullets kill harder, with far ore shocking force, producing a massive wound channel for blood loss and greater tissue and organ damage which all related to I don’t have to track the animal as far or in some cases at all.

 

[frontiergander]

Shooting a muzzleloader WILL teach you how to become a better hunter. It will make you learn how to stock game, carefully place you shot, slow down and enjoy the hunt.

I enjoy hunting with a traditional rifle a lot more than an inline but the only inline right now that i would buy is the cva Accura. they are built strong, accurate and are very reasonable in price. www.budsgunshop.com

 

[Macmac]

SeekHer , I hope you live near new hampster, and own one o' them new fangled inline guns, cuz i got a wicked fast rocklock that speaks even upside down it as fast as inlines.

Lots of rather poor locks are made cheap and not just right, but then there are some more costly locks.. These can be some dang fast.

I would be willing to load mine to hunt and dunk it in a pond for so long as you are willing to dunk yers in that same pond, and I bet my rock lock still goes boom..

 

[.38 Special]

IMO there is a great deal of nonsense tossed around regarding inlines. For instance, many people claim that inlines are more reliable. This has not been my experience at all; in fact, I have seen more difficulties with inlines than with traditional caplocks. Caplocks, managed correctly, are extremely reliable. I argue that it actually takes more knowledge to master the tricks and traps of the modern inline. The typical traditional caplock is an extremely easy beast to figure out.

The argument for expansion is also a non-starter, IMO. Large bore muzzleloader balls come out of the bore pre-expanded. They have worked on game large and small for centuries. The so-called "modern" projectile is really nothing more than a pistol bullet. They certainly can work -- but it's been my experience that they rarely work as well or as reliably as a good old round ball.

Accuracy? Both inlines and traditional guns are about equal, in my experience. You'll find plenty of flat-out lies about how the inline is good for long range hunting, but lies are a poor reason to buy a gun. Inlines do have the "advantage" of being readily scoped, although many of the traditional guns are readily amenable to the practice as well -- including the Traditions gun you are considering.

The bottom line is that both the inline and the traditional caplock work fine in the hunting field. You should choose the one that appeals to you and ignore the folks making a lot of noise about how one is much better than the other.

 

[mykeal]

The sabot or modern projectile will do one thing that a round ball cannot and will not do at any velocity and that is expand and because of the way it grips the barrel, which effects spin, causes them to be more accurate at any range.

Yes, the round ball does not expand and 'grip' the barrel; the patch does. And if you've loaded the proper size patch and ball, the ball spins as the rifling dictates. The sabot is not 'better' at 'gripping' the barrel; both work equally well. Your implication that the ball does not spin, and is therefore less accurate 'at any range', is incorrect. The difference in accuracy between round ball and conical at long range is mainly due to differences in ballistic coefficient.

 

[SeekHer]

Sorry, duplicate post...

 

[SeekHer]

Sorry, duplicate post due to site difficulties causing multiple posts

 

[SeekHer]

Originally posted by Macmac
SeekHer , I hope you live near new hampster, and own one o' them new fangled inline guns, cuz i got a wicked fast rocklock that speaks even upside down it as fast as inlines.

Lots of rather poor locks are made cheap and not just right, but then there are some more costly locks.. These can be some dang fast.

I would be willing to load mine to hunt and dunk it in a pond for so long as you are willing to dunk yers in that same pond, and I bet my rock lock still goes boom..

I've got a couple of Hatfield flinters in the same condition but I don't know if they'd fire after a dunking as the frizzen pan isn't that watertight but they will shoot upside down--but generally speaking, flintlocks are slower due to length of fall, striking time of frizzen face and primary ignition of pan powder to ignite secondary ignition of powder in the barrel. The percussion cap, whether a modern shotgun primer or a tradition cap will be slightly faster and due to the larger cap of the inline a little hotter and thusly a little faster going boom...Of course there are exceptions to the rule as I've got a cap gun that will shoot half a second after the trigger is engaged and I've sent it back twice to the maker to fix and they finally gave me a new gun that fires real quick--Lyman is a very good company to deal with...

Accuracy--Well, I've got a couple of "Chunk" guns that will consistently make one hole 5 shot groups at 100 yds--the .45 cal is mounted with Anschutz Target Sight Set and the .50 cal with an old 6x brass scope in external mounts...These behemoths weight in at 30 lbs and 35 lbs respectively and both are Underhammer percussion with extremely heavy springs and super fast ignition with an Anschutz double set trigger assembly.

I also have a Parker Hale .451 Whitworth rifle with a hexagonal bore shooting the long hex bullets that is mounted with a brass scope as well for depiction of a CSA sniper and an open sighted Volunteer Rifle as well. For the other side I have a .56 cal five shot Colt Model 1855 Revolving Rifle and a Sharps New Model 1859 in .54 (not .52 cal), also with a scope, for the part of a green coated Berdan's Sharpshooter...

Although I do have the three official Springfield rifle replicas I prefer my Enfield guns—2 band, 3 band and musketoon by Parker Hale for any shooting events…

I've a Curly Gastromski trade gun with a very fast lock and also one by Kit Ravenshear--a Brown Bess First Pattern (Banana lock) that has magnesium strips on the frizzen and an over bored touchhole to make sure it will ignite in firing competitions--whose gun won't go bang first…

I also like shooting Schuetzen style matches and Creedmoor style shoots in both percussion cap and cartridge rifles as well…

I have a sizeable collection of BP guns, from matchlock, wheellock, snaphaunce, dog lock, flint, percussion and cartridge as I’ve been shooting blackpowder since the 1960s when there were no replicas—or damn few of inferior quality—Until the 150th anniversary of the Napoleonic wars came about along with the centennials of the American Civil War and then in the 1970s the Bi-centennial…All my originals (75 pieces), including a Sharps coffee grinder carbine are on loan to a few local museums—they needed the pieces and I get a substantial decrease in my insurance payments….The originals are never shot anymore but the replicas ( 83 pcs) are used by myself and family at fur trade rendezvous and historical military re-enactments in Canada and the USA and even attended a few European Napoleonic battles in full attire and accoutrements and some heavy duty fur trade/Indian events in Germany and Denmark but there had to use borrowed pieces to compete…

 

[SeekHer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekHer
The sabot or modern projectile will do one thing that a round ball cannot and will not do at any velocity and that is expand and because of the way it grips the barrel, which effects spin, causes them to be more accurate at any range

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykeal
Yes, the round ball does not expand and 'grip' the barrel; the patch does. And if you've loaded the proper size patch and ball, the ball spins as the rifling dictates. The sabot is not 'better' at 'gripping' the barrel; both work equally well. Your implication that the ball does not spin, and is therefore less accurate 'at any range', is incorrect. The difference in accuracy between round ball and conical at long range is mainly due to differences in ballistic coefficient.

Gee, after fifty years of competitive rifle shooting I learned something new <<sarcasm alert as I’m an old curmudgeon!>>

It should be obvious that the conical/sabot grips as such not the round ball—which by the way, if tight enough will spin without any patching but really has to be started with a Barrel Bullet Starter assembly and a mallet…my target guns are not patched but don’t shoot round but conical bullets.

Of course they all spin, otherwise they wouldn’t be called rifles now would they! The saboted round (which I don’t shoot) has the ability, because of the soft surrounding sheath to grip the grooves deeper, meaning a tighter seal, meaning added velocity but a slightly lessened BC due to the fact your only shooting pistol bullets out of it…That was the principal behind the Minie ball as well with its expanding skirt…I don’t use them because they foul the barrel with that “plastic” residue and it takes a lot more cleaning (Old age equates to laziness)…

I was lucky in buying a several hundred rounds of both Hollow point and Solid Bullets from the now defunct Buffalo Bullet Company in the various hunting/target calibers I use…The other bullets I really like are the Precision Rifle Conicals and if you can find then the NO EXCUSE Muzzleloading bullets (site is down) as they’re match grade, individually weighed, super accurate conicals…

One factor alone sets the inlines apart—they can take a much heavier charge of powder and therefore become long range hunting guns or more powerful shorter range guns…

From the PR Conical site:

Back in the day when most .45s had a 1:48" twist and were limited to about 80 grains of powder, they were a poor choice.
Today's Magnum .45s are capable of handling powder charges up to 150 grains and this changes everything.
By their very nature, .45 caliber Conicals are more efficient than either .50 or .54. They offer higher BC and therefore more downrange energy and flatter shooting.

My Magnum .45 loaded with a 360 QT Polymer Tip Spitzer conical and 120 grains of Pyrodex P shoots five shots into one ragged hole at 100 yards. This combination leaves the muzzle at 1600 fps and still carries over 1100 ft lbs of energy at 250 yards.

I’ve hunted 40+ years with traditional guns, ever go hunting with a matchlock? We did numerous times but for small game. All my relatives have as well and my oldest daughters got started with BP even before rimfire! I didn’t go for archery or the separate BP season this year as I had emergency surgery in the Spring and didn’t feel up to it but my youngest daughter (13 yr old) and I went winter camping/hunting in a modern 1 pole tepee last weekend and she got two deer—my doe and her buck—with her new 7mm-08 and since started hunting at age eight this is her 10th and 11th deer—1 archery, 4 BP and 6 CF—

I switched to inline for the fact that I’m almost sixty years old and my eyesight is failing so using traditional iron sights is difficult. The first one, a classic stock Ruger M77BP with Red Dot/Holo sight and the new Ultimate BPXpress thumbhole stock, I’m now using. has a proper Leupold scope that makes life so much easier and I’m still using BP with all of its limitations…Short range, stinking target obscuring smoke and more corrosive to metal the smokeless!

I switched because it was so similar to my centerfire rifles and the way they handle and can be outfitted…I hunt for meat--so I must be accurate, I shoot for fun—so haziness and blurred targets are OK even with prescription eyeglasses…

 

[BullpupBen]

Does anyone have experience with the CVA Optima Elite? Like how they compare with the Encore on reliability, accuracy, etc?

Also, are there any wooden-stocked inlines I should know about?

EDIT: good point.. I'm trying to go cheap for this first rifle so my budget is $300 not including scope, since I'm going to buy the scope anyway. I am willing to buy whatever condition, but would prefer new of course. For the Optima Elite my budget is a little higher because it doubles as a centerfire.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Please read sig.

 

[.38 Special]

One factor alone sets the inlines apart—they can take a much heavier charge of powder and therefore become long range hunting guns or more powerful shorter range guns…

October Country, for one, sells very traditional caplocks warranted for very large charges of powder -- their .69 caliber, for instance, uses 225 grains of ffg for a velocity of 2000fps and 4300 foot pounds of energy.