First Post: Range Report: IMR 4227 & 45-70 Gov't

[Bearded Phil]

Hi Everyone. My name is Phil and I've been reading these forums for a while and finally decided to join. And what better way to start out than with a range report? I've seen some others asking about IMR 4227 in 45-70 Gov't and I thought I'd share some of my findings as I recently got 8 Lbs and have been testing loads.

The set-up:
Henry H010G- 18.43" barrel
Skinner Alaskan peep sights with .096" standard aperture. Patridge blade front sight.
SNS 405gr Coated RNFP
Star Brass
CCI LRP
COL- 2.515"-2.52" (some brass has different trim lengths)
Caldwell Precision Chrono- ~12-14 LF from bench
Sand filled lead-shot bag front rest, no rear bag
50 YD range on NRA TQ-4 targets
And of course IMR 4227 powder.

I tried to let my barrel cool after each 5rd set for about 5 mins at least.

Now, I loaded a ladder of 4 different charges, 5 rounds each for boxes of 20 rounds total. I did this twice with the ladder charges and then loaded full 20 round boxes of the top 3 charges.
Load data was extrapolated from Lyman's Cast Handbook 3rd edition from their 420gr #457193 bullet (Winchester & Marlin data).

One other quick thing up top about group sizes... they're not great, haha. I'm still working on my technique so the room for improvement is visible here. The sizings are measures of the actual spread on each 5 round set, no removing outliers/flyers. I only mention it so that if anyone wants to extrapolate what a decent charge is here they don't look at my 5" groups and write them off. I'm sure most of these are much more accurate than my skills.

Personally I think I'm finding after my full 20 round set of 22.7gr charges that I shoot better at lower recoil charges (not that any of these are particularly hot, mind you). For my Set #1 & #2 at that charge I was having pretty good results. Set #3 my excitement let my focus falter (it is what the numbers say) and #4 a flyer ruined that set but hey, no cheating!

There's a lot of data below, I hope someone can get something useful out of it. If anyone does I plan to do similar testing with IMR 4227 in 357 Mag with 158gr LCRN and 158gr HDY XTP from my Henry H012GM and would be glad to share. Thanks for looking!

_________________________
-LADDER #1

21.0gr
~ 1017 FPS
SD: 18.61
ES: 50
GROUP: 4.00"

22.7gr
~ 1076 FPS
SD: 10.04
ES: 24
GROUP: 3.00"

24.4gr
~ 1158 FPS
SD: 11.69
ES: 29
GROUP: 4.19"

26.2gr
~ 1228 FPS
SD: 10.43
ES: 25
GROUP: 5.75"

_________________________
LADDER #2

21.0gr
~ 999 FPS
SD: 22.74
ES: 61
GROUP: 5.38"

22.7gr
~ 1074 FPS
SD: 9.31
ES: 23
GROUP: 2.88"

24.4gr
~ 1145 FPS
SD: 18.99
ES: 46
GROUP: 2.68"

26.2gr
~ 1230 FPS
SD: 10.02
ES: 20
GROUP: 3.25"
________________________
20 ROUNDS @ 26.2gr (4 EA- 5 round sets)

Set 1
~ 1224 FPS
SD: 9.14
ES: 23
GROUP: 4.00"

Set 2
~ 1238 FPS
SD: 15.74
ES: 42
GROUP: 4.19"

Set 3
~ 1226 FPS
SD: 10.07
ES: 24
GROUP: 5.88"

Set 4
~ 1232 FPS
SD: 11.44
ES: 25
GROUP: 4.50"

Aggregate:
~ 1230 FPS
SD: 11.99
ES: 49
GROUP: 4.64"
_________________________

20 ROUNDS @ 24.4gr (4 EA- 5 round sets)

Set 1
~ 1138 FPS
SD: 15.66
ES: 35
GROUP: 4.25"

Set 2
~ 1135 FPS
SD: 8.41
ES: 23
GROUP: 4.75"

Set 3
~ 1140 fps
SD: 18.99
ES: 52
GROUP: 3.63"

Set 4
~ 1143 FPS
SD: 13.52
ES: 28
GROUP: 5.75"

Aggregate
~ 1139
SD: 13.45
ES: 52
GROUP: 4.60"

_______________________
20 ROUNDS @ 22.7gr (4 EA- 5 round sets)

Set 1
~ 1077 FPS
SD: 24.14
ES: 60
GROUP: 1.31"

Set 2
~ 1078 FPS
SD: 17.67
ES: 43
GROUP: 1.38"

Set 3
~ 1077 fps
SD: 13.92
ES: 27
GROUP: 5.13"

Set 4 (Special Note: I forgot to start recording and missed the first 3 rounds on this set)
~ 1088 FPS
SD: 9.19
ES: 13
GROUP: 2.94"

Aggregate (of the 17 recorded rounds)
~ 1079 FPS
SD: 16.53
ES: 60
GROUP: 2.69"

__________________________

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Hi Everyone. My name is Phil and I've been reading these forums for a while and finally decided to join. And what better way to start out than with a range report? I've seen some others asking about IMR 4227 in 45-70 Gov't and I thought I'd share some of my findings as I recently got 8 Lbs and have been testing loads.

The set-up:
Henry H010G- 18.43" barrel
Skinner Alaskan peep sights with .096" standard aperture. Patridge blade front sight.
SNS 405gr Coated RNFP
Star Brass
CCI LRP
COL- 2.515"-2.52" (some brass has different trim lengths)
Caldwell Precision Chrono- ~12-14 LF from bench
Sand filled lead-shot bag front rest, no rear bag
50 YD range on NRA TQ-4 targets
And of course IMR 4227 powder.

I tried to let my barrel cool after each 5rd set for about 5 mins at least.

Now, I loaded a ladder of 4 different charges, 5 rounds each for boxes of 20 rounds total. I did this twice with the ladder charges and then loaded full 20 round boxes of the top 3 charges.
Load data was extrapolated from Lyman's Cast Handbook 3rd edition from their 420gr #457193 bullet (Winchester & Marlin data).

One other quick thing up top about group sizes... they're not great, haha. I'm still working on my technique so the room for improvement is visible here. The sizings are measures of the actual spread on each 5 round set, no removing outliers/flyers. I only mention it so that if anyone wants to extrapolate what a decent charge is here they don't look at my 5" groups and write them off. I'm sure most of these are much more accurate than my skills.

Personally I think I'm finding after my full 20 round set of 22.7gr charges that I shoot better at lower recoil charges (not that any of these are particularly hot, mind you). For my Set #1 & #2 at that charge I was having pretty good results. Set #3 my excitement let my focus falter (it is what the numbers say) and #4 a flyer ruined that set but hey, no cheating!

There's a lot of data below, I hope someone can get something useful out of it. If anyone does I plan to do similar testing with IMR 4227 in 357 Mag with 158gr LCRN and 158gr HDY XTP from my Henry H012GM and would be glad to share. Thanks for looking!

_________________________
-LADDER #1

21.0gr
~ 1017 FPS
SD: 18.61
ES: 50
GROUP: 4.00"

22.7gr
~ 1076 FPS
SD: 10.04
ES: 24
GROUP: 3.00"

24.4gr
~ 1158 FPS
SD: 11.69
ES: 29
GROUP: 4.19"

26.2gr
~ 1228 FPS
SD: 10.43
ES: 25
GROUP: 5.75"

_________________________
LADDER #2

21.0gr
~ 999 FPS
SD: 22.74
ES: 61
GROUP: 5.38"

22.7gr
~ 1074 FPS
SD: 9.31
ES: 23
GROUP: 2.88"

24.4gr
~ 1145 FPS
SD: 18.99
ES: 46
GROUP: 2.68"

26.2gr
~ 1230 FPS
SD: 10.02
ES: 20
GROUP: 3.25"
________________________
20 ROUNDS @ 26.2gr (4 EA- 5 round sets)

Set 1
~ 1224 FPS
SD: 9.14
ES: 23
GROUP: 4.00"

Set 2
~ 1238 FPS
SD: 15.74
ES: 42
GROUP: 4.19"

Set 3
~ 1226 FPS
SD: 10.07
ES: 24
GROUP: 5.88"

Set 4
~ 1232 FPS
SD: 11.44
ES: 25
GROUP: 4.50"

Aggregate:
~ 1230 FPS
SD: 11.99
ES: 49
GROUP: 4.64"
_________________________

20 ROUNDS @ 24.4gr (4 EA- 5 round sets)

Set 1
~ 1138 FPS
SD: 15.66
ES: 35
GROUP: 4.25"

Set 2
~ 1135 FPS
SD: 8.41
ES: 23
GROUP: 4.75"

Set 3
~ 1140 fps
SD: 18.99
ES: 52
GROUP: 3.63"

Set 4
~ 1143 FPS
SD: 13.52
ES: 28
GROUP: 5.75"

Aggregate
~ 1139
SD: 13.45
ES: 52
GROUP: 4.60"

_______________________
20 ROUNDS @ 22.7gr (4 EA- 5 round sets)

Set 1
~ 1077 FPS
SD: 24.14
ES: 60
GROUP: 1.31"

Set 2
~ 1078 FPS
SD: 17.67
ES: 43
GROUP: 1.38"

Set 3
~ 1077 fps
SD: 13.92
ES: 27
GROUP: 5.13"

Set 4 (Special Note: I forgot to start recording and missed the first 3 rounds on this set)
~ 1088 FPS
SD: 9.19
ES: 13
GROUP: 2.94"

Aggregate (of the 17 recorded rounds)
~ 1079 FPS
SD: 16.53
ES: 60
GROUP: 2.69"

__________________________

Nice write up! Thanks for sharing and welcome aboard.

 

[Charlie98]

Welcome!

I use IMR4227 in a number of cast rifle cartridges, but I've not yet tried it in the .45-70... as soon as I can find an 8#er, I'll likely give it a try. Using it in other cartridges (.308, .30-30, .348WCF) I found IMR4227 to give me some of the lowest SD's of any powder I've used, with good accuracy.

I wonder... what size are your bullets? Although there is always room for improvement with shooting skill, there is something to the correct sized bullet for your bore. You are using a peep sight, so your sight radius is about as good as you're likely to get it, so I'm wondering if you might bump the size of your bullet up .001" and see what that does. I'm not super familiar with the Henry, but I had a similar situation with an older Savage 99 lever in .30-30... going to a .311" bullet brought the patterns... er, the groups... down from 4' (yes, that's feet...) at 100yds, to about 5".

 

[Lennyjoe]

Welcome aboard and thanks for sharing your data.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Welcome to the Village! they hide the reloaders and handloaders back here so we don’t chase away all the customers.

You put a lot of work into that ladder test! Thanks! I’m definitely a 45/70 conssore.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Welcome to the Village! they hide the reloaders and handloaders back here so we don’t chase away all the customers.

You put a lot of work into that ladder test! Thanks! I’m definitely a 45/70 conssore.

Bonus is, IMR 4227 has been available pretty consistently during this past shortage. The guys at the indoor range got a couple of pounds with their finally-arrived backorders in December. Scooped them both for around $30/each after tax.
$42/lb seems to be the new normal going rate which is real far off of the $26 + HazMat but w/free shipping I paid in 2018 from PV. I think the first pound can I bought in 1985 was $8 + tax - but don't hold me to it. My memory isn't what it never was anymore. I still have a pound can of IMR 4064 I bought around the same time but the price tag wore off a long time ago.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Bonus is, IMR 4227 has been available pretty consistently during this past shortage. The guys at the indoor range got a couple of pounds with their finally-arrived backorders in December. Scooped them both for around $30/each after tax.
$42/lb seems to be the new normal going rate which is real far off of the $26 + HazMat but w/free shipping I paid in 2018 from PV. I think the first pound can I bought in 1985 was $8 + tax - but don't hold me to it. My memory isn't what it never was anymore. I still have a pound can of IMR 4064 I bought around the same time but the price tag wore off a long time ago.

northern Florida need more reloading supply shops

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

northern Florida need more reloading supply shops

I only know two other hand-loaders personally. One is @bersaguy down in the Orlampa area and the other's an old-timer/hobby shooter. He's mothballed his equipment until prices come down and availability improves. According to the LGS owners I know, there's just no demand. Our local shooters just prefer boxed ammo. There's some hunters I've talked to who think it's illegal to hunt public lands with reloads, for some reason. I can't get them to cite a reg', though. All I get is anecdotal stories about a cousin's friend's big brother/father who got his gun confiscated and a fine for hunting "illegally" with handloads. Y'all know how those rumors get started.

 

[Charlie98]

All I get is anecdotal stories about a cousin's friend's big brother/father who got his gun confiscated and a fine for hunting "illegally" with handloads. Y'all know how those rumors get started.

Hey... I read it on the internet, so it has to be true.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Hey... I read it on the internet, so it has to be true.

people still read?

 

[Bearded Phil]

Welcome!

I use IMR4227 in a number of cast rifle cartridges, but I've not yet tried it in the .45-70... as soon as I can find an 8#er, I'll likely give it a try. Using it in other cartridges (.308, .30-30, .348WCF) I found IMR4227 to give me some of the lowest SD's of any powder I've used, with good accuracy.

I wonder... what size are your bullets? Although there is always room for improvement with shooting skill, there is something to the correct sized bullet for your bore. You are using a peep sight, so your sight radius is about as good as you're likely to get it, so I'm wondering if you might bump the size of your bullet up .001" and see what that does. I'm not super familiar with the Henry, but I had a similar situation with an older Savage 99 lever in .30-30... going to a .311" bullet brought the patterns... er, the groups... down from 4' (yes, that's feet...) at 100yds, to about 5".

The SNS 405gr coated are sized to .459" which seems to hold true with my digital calipers (dont have a micrometer currently). I also slugged my henry a few times with a Hornady .495" round ball and got measurements between .455"-.457", but I'm thinking next time I clean I might try it again. The balls really seemed to slip through after I got them into the muzzle and i'm wondering if I could get a better read if I came in from the muzzle end and smushed it to really fill up against the walls of the barrel. What do you think? Either way I don't think my particular Henry 45-70 has and over sized. Could be mayhap I need a smaller sized bullet, sadly SNS doesn't offer custom sizes, at least not without calling and asking if they'll do that.

 

[Bearded Phil]

Also, thanks for the welcomes @GeoDudeFlorida, @Charlie98, @Lennyjoe & @Mark_Mark !

 

[Bearded Phil]

Bonus is, IMR 4227 has been available pretty consistently during this past shortage.

90% of the reason I picked up 8 LBS of it was there was a good week and a half last month where the Hodgdon website had it available. I looked into it and saw applications for 45-70 & 357 Mag, which is 2/4 caliber's I'm currently loading for so I said to myself, "Well, why not, lets try it out". With 8 lbs it'll keep me loading for a while. I'm hoping I like it in 357. I just got a 8lber of I-4198 in from Brownells today and am going to do testing with the 405gr lead in 45-70 with it. If I like what i get there with 4198 in 45-70 and the 4227 in 357 I may resign those two powders in my stock specifically to each caliber. Whats left of my 4227 would go a looong way in 357 Mag alone.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The SNS 405gr coated are sized to .459" which seems to hold true with my digital calipers (dont have a micrometer currently). I also slugged my henry a few times with a Hornady .495" round ball and got measurements between .455"-.457", but I'm thinking next time I clean I might try it again. The balls really seemed to slip through after I got them into the muzzle and i'm wondering if I could get a better read if I came in from the muzzle end and smushed it to really fill up against the walls of the barrel. What do you think? Either way I don't think my particular Henry 45-70 has and over sized. Could be mayhap I need a smaller sized bullet, sadly SNS doesn't offer custom sizes, at least not without calling and asking if they'll do that.

A .459" cast in a bore under .458" but over .455" nominal is just about right. Too tight and you get deformation and the coating streaks but you're a long way from that. If you really get curious, buy some cerrosafe (a fusible alloy with a low melting point - 42.5% bismuth, 37.7% lead, 11.3% tin, 8.5% cadmium). Melts around 175F - easy stove-top melt but don't use a good pan Makes slugging the bore easy but follow the directions to the letter.

 

[Bearded Phil]

If you really get curious, buy some cerrosafe (a fusible alloy with a low melting point - 42.5% bismuth, 37.7% lead, 11.3% tin, 8.5% cadmium). Melts around 175F - easy stove-top melt but don't use a good pan Makes slugging the bore easy but follow the directions to the letter.

I've seen some video's and write ups on that stuff. I don't cast (yet, ha!), so I figure I'll save going through that until I start that ordeal or I have some real leading/accuracy problems.

I didn't mention it anywhere above but cleaning after some of these testing sessions showed an insignificant amount of lead. Last session I was out I skipped brushing and just swiped a patch of ballistol with my jag and followed by a few clean patches just to get the grains of powder out. Next session I'm going to go in with my lightly fouled barrel and see if the opening groups show any improvements.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

90% of the reason I picked up 8 LBS of it was there was a good week and a half last month where the Hodgdon website had it available. I looked into it and saw applications for 45-70 & 357 Mag, which is 2/4 caliber's I'm currently loading for so I said to myself, "Well, why not, lets try it out". With 8 lbs it'll keep me loading for a while. I'm hoping I like it in 357. I just got a 8lber of I-4198 in from Brownells today and am going to do testing with the 405gr lead in 45-70 with it. If I like what i get there with 4198 in 45-70 and the 4227 in 357 I may resign those two powders in my stock specifically to each caliber. Whats left of my 4227 would go a looong way in 357 Mag alone.

IMR 4227 in a .357Mag is a good carbine powder not bad for longer barreled pistols like the Contender, but really it's the crimp and fill that gets it moving. A hard roll crimp on a heavy lead bullet with close to a compressed load and it just sings so sweetly. Follow published data, of course!

 

[Charlie98]

I just got a 8lber of I-4198 in from Brownells today and am going to do testing with the 405gr lead in 45-70 with it. If I like what i get there with 4198 in 45-70

I was going to suggest picking up some IMR4198 if you could... you beat me to it. IMR4198 is my go-to for cast rifle... it works very, very well. 30grn IMR4198 an a Montana 405grn bullet gives me 1270fps out of my (32") Pedersoli 1885, 35grn pushes 1500fps... which might be a little much in your lighter Henry.

 

[Charlie98]

FWIW, if you wanted to sample a different sized bullet... or just a different bullet in general, have a look at Montana Bullet Works. Most of their bullets are available sized to any reasonable diameter, and they have a lot of variety. Yes, they are a bit expensive, but I've not shot a better bullet.

 

[Bearded Phil]

IMR 4227 in a .357Mag is a good carbine powder not bad for longer barreled pistols like the Contender, but really it's the crimp and fill that gets it moving. A hard roll crimp on a heavy lead bullet with close to a compressed load and it just sings so sweetly. Follow published data, of course!

We should be pretty happy then! I got my 158gr bullets, my lee FCD and my 20" barrel Henry (which actually is coming home today from factory service, but that's another thread..)

 

[Bearded Phil]

I was going to suggest picking up some IMR4198 if you could... you beat me to it. IMR4198 is my go-to for cast rifle... it works very, very well. 30grn IMR4198 an a Montana 405grn bullet gives me 1270fps out of my (32") Pedersoli 1885, 35grn pushes 1500fps... which might be a little much in your lighter Henry.

I'll let you know if my next report, I already have a ladder batch of 20 rounds, 5 EA charge from 31.5gr, 32.4gr, 33.3gr & 34.2gr I4198 loaded to test. I'm thinking I'll get out Sunday, hopefully the club will be nice and quiet with football going on.

 

[Charlie98]

We should be pretty happy then! I got my 158gr bullets, my lee FCD and my 20" barrel Henry (which actually is coming home today from factory service, but that's another thread..)

That's actually where my IMR4227 goes... in .41MAG loads for my 20" Marlin.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Hey... I read it on the internet, so it has to be true.

Either that or somebody was night huntin' out the passenger window of his truck along the roadside and Johnny Law just happened to be watching. Easier to blame "reloads" than admit to poaching.