First rifle. AR15 or AK47

[blackhawk2000]

If you want .308/7.62X51 I wouldn't go with an AR model. There are other battle rifles out there that are superior IMO. If you want an intermediate round rifle go with the AR. In the long run you will be better off.


Or buy a 16" flat top AR, and an AK for $1500. Then decide what you like better, and sell the one you don't like.

 

[boerseun]

Either is a great choice for plinking and/or SHTF.

7.62x39 is still fairly cheap and AK's are super reliable - but they are noisy (rattles) and not very accurate. Will make a good truck gun.

.223/5.56 is a little bit more expensive than 7.62x39 - not much though. AR's are modular. If you get tired of the .223 or 5.56, swap out the upper for a 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel or .50 Beowulf. You can get a .22lr conversion cheap for the AR. It is a more expensive rifle than the AK, and some claim it is not all that reliable...I beg to differ. It is reliable - if you do your part. It is NOT a truck gun.

 

[Juna]

The AR-15 is much more accurate & lighter. Plus it offers the modularity, so you can buy multiple uppers in different calibers for one lower, and you could do so for under $1500.

The AK is very reliable, easy to disassemble (even for non-mechanically inclined people, as it was designed to be easy enough for the Russian peasants in the military to disassemble), and it contains a cleaning rod under the barrel and cleaning rod attachments inside the stock. Basically, it's totally self contained with everything you need. It is heavier & less accurate, though. But for SHTF, I think it's accurate enough, and it fires a potent round. It really isn't that heavy, either.

I was in the same boat as you but with 20% of your budget, so I got an AK, and I'm happy with it. It really just makes me want to take it apart and play with it b/c it's so easy to do. Spare parts are readily available, and mags are cheap. I believe normally 7.62x39 is cheaper than 5.56mm/.223, but lately b/c of the war they've both been pretty high.

BUT... for your $1500 budget, you could get BOTH & sell the one you like less. Personally, if I had a $1500 budget, I'd get one really nice AR-15, a scope or red dot, some spare hi-cap mags, and a bunch of ammo.

 

[richardschennberg]

Cheap 7.62x39 ammo works in almost all AKs with minimal cleaning and maintenance. Some ARs do not like some makes of cheap .223/5.56 ammo and all ARs require cleaning. You may be able to get an AR-15 to work reliably with inexpensive ammunition, but if you want to be sure get an AK-47.
Richard
Schennberg.com

 

[wnycollector]

Just a thought...I have a Romanian WASR-2 5.45x39 (the russian "223") and REALLY like it. It is very accurate out to 200 yards with iron sights! I believe they make it in .223 also.

 

[wanderinwalker]

My take

Remember what you paid for this:

An AK is more accurate than most AR users (myself included) will give it credit for. Is it capable of MOA performance? Not too likely or reliably. Can I hit a 200 yard ram offhand with it? Fairly regularly, I'd say 80-90%, with the iron sights, for the one I tried.

Now a bone-stock AR, in an A2 configuration isn't too likely to be a tack-driver either, but it IS easier to shoot well and shoots better. I can hit the 200 yard ram offhand with an AR much more easily and reliably, more into the 90%+ range.

Is the AR as unreliable as the AK shooters state? No way. It is much maligned, but if you've got a 5.56 chamber and are shooting something like Lake City surplus or similar, you won't have many problems. ARs don't magically stop working after a magazine or three IME. My match rifle has been snow drifted, baked, left dirty and sticky and will still work 100% with a batch of ratty old USGI mags.

Now, I'll say the AK can't match the AR in ergonomics and is definitely heavier and more akward to use. I'm only 5' 8" and I find the AK to be stocked too short. The safety is in the wrong spot, mag changes are slower and some models have particularly bad trigger slap that makes my finger numb after 5 rounds. You can't scope an AK as easily as say a flat-top AR (but I don't think an AK is any worse to scope than an A2 AR) either.

For $1500 you can do as suggested and buy one of each and sell the one you don't like.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

wanderinwalker,

I agree, AR's and AK's problems are often exaggerated by those who dislike those specific designs...

 

[hitman134]

For $1,500. You Can Get Both Of Them,Search For Offers Or In The Range,People Sell Guns For Less Than In The Stores.

 

[benEzra]

For a first rifle, I'd recommend the AR, for reasons of accuracy and modularity, if you can afford it. AK type carbines can be capable of decent accuracy (~2.5 MOA with good ammunition, I'd say), but are easy to shoot badly and hard to shoot well. The ergonomics aren't as good, and the short sight radius doesn't help.

Some of the biggest drawback to the AK is, they are too hard to scope.

Actually, they are very easy to scope, unless you want an American-made optic. Scoping an AK with a factory siderail is as easy as buying the (eastern bloc) scope and slapping it on. Here's my SAR-1 with a Kobra (Russian collimator sight, $184.00 out the door, slides right on the rifle):

Here's the same rifle with a POSP 4x24, a rugged milspec scope with excellent optics, illuminated rangefinding reticle with mil scale, and multiple aiming chevrons, that I paid $99 for:

Again, a buy-the-scope-and-slide-it-on-the-rail operation.

Now, if you want to put an American-made scope on it, yes, it'd take a bit of work. But there are a lot of quality optics out there that don't require any work at all.

, even if they weren't hard to scope only a red dot would be practical for it due to it's lack of range

I agree with you there (and the same applies to out-of-the-box mini-14's, in my experience). The POSP is an excellent scope, but for me, the Kobra is a better fit to the rifle/cartridge. The trajectory of 7.62x39mm is such that with a Kobra zeroed at 50 yards, you get 2.2 inches above line of sight around 125 yards, a far zero at 180-190, and a 5-inch MBPR around 220 yards, IIRC, all well within the range of an unmagnified optic.

Yeah, it's because the AR is vastly more popular/common in the US.

More popular, probably. Not vastly so, though.

 

[10-Ring]

Since I turned 21, 21 years ago, I've shot primarily handguns...I've bought, sold & traded ALOT of hand guns over the years then a few (maybe 3 years ago or so) years ago, I bought a M1A and really liked it. Then last year when it became legal to buy OLL's in CA, I started AR projects. I now have a 223, 9 mm and one that hasn't been built yet.
That said, for a first rifle, I went w/ the idea that this might be the only one I'd ever buy and I went w/ the 308, M1A. IF the choices are between the AR or the AK, I'd go AR. Enjoy your quest

 

[MHBushmaster]

I have .308 MBR (Main Battle Rifles) and right right now I don't shoot them as ammo prices for this caliber are literally through the roof. The current going rate for South African 140 rd Battle packs is around $50, IF you can find it.
Now is not the time for a FAL, HK, CETME, M1A, or AR10 due to the current ammo shortage. IF you are a smmo hoarder, well, you are good to go for awhile, but alot ammo hoarders are not going out and shooting all that much of their stockpiled ammo.
Go with an AR15, and pick up a WASR-10 later on for no more than $350 if you want to try and AK variant. The AR is all around accurate, can be tailored for almost any need, enter .50beawolf, 6.8, 6.5, etc. Feeding an AR right now is barely more expensive than feeding a AK or SKS. The days of 1,000 round of Wolf 7.62x39 for $85 are gone, try more like $150 plus shipping. Mil Surplus of 5.56 is currently running over $200 per thousand shipped. Wolf is a bit cheaper, with cheaper results too. AR's are very modular, so you can really have 2 or 3 rifles with only changing the uppers which takes a sum total of about 20 seconds. My humble opinion is to spring for the AR, forget the grumblings about how they jam alot(these problems were addressed around 25 years ago, and with proper maintenance that befits a respected rifle, there is no problem).
The AR15 can be a national match grade rifle all the way to a Oly Arms Plinker Plus fun gun. You cannot find a more flexible design today better than the AR-15 platform. Nothing wrong with an AK or a .308 rifle, I am more a fan of the AR-15 family of rifles/carbines.

 

[crebralfix]

You can do a lot with $1500. I highly recommend that you get a $500 AK, 2k rounds, and some training. Take a look at Armory USA AKs. You could also get a WASR, a pile of magazines, a wider rear sight, and a Red Star trigger along with the other stuff. Don't forget a rifle bug out bag (onesourcetactical.com has them).

The AK will do everything you need for self-defense to within 300 meters. Just remember, as the AR15 is not a 1911, the AK is not an AR15. Therefore, 1911 and pistol techniques will NOT work well for the AK (pistol techniques have been applied to "black rifle" training). Correct training is essential. Suarez International offers AK specific classes and I have taken the first class: Kalashnikov Rifle Gunfighting. It was excellent and included more than shooting; the AK is a great club and arm
breaker.

Get on www.warriortalk.com and check out the Kalashnikov subforum. There is a sticky on maximizing the AK, which includes links to parts sites. There is a thread on alternative rifle bags, some of which are very functional for under $30.

If you decide to go with an AR15, then you'll need to learn different techniques. Again, I recommend that you emphasize training over gear. See if you can get a USED basic AR15. There are many trainers who are good; ask around.

If you go with a battlerifle, a CMP Garand is the best deal going. You can buy a Garand, get some 'smithing done to it, and buy a pile of clips and ammo off the CMP. One advantage of the Garand is that milsurp 30-06 ammo is available.

***

Accuracy:

If 1 MOA means the rifle will shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yards, then the same rifle will shoot a 5 inch group at 500 yards.

4 MOA is NATO standard for the AR platform. 6 MOA was the commie standard. Will a goblin notice the difference at 100 yards? Probably not.

Will a paper target notice...yeah. Define your game. If it's shooting games, then get a game gun. Otherwise, "minute of man" accuracy is all you need.

Any rack grade rifle that is 4 MOA is minute of man at 500 yards. Granted, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm are not 500 yard cartridges. So, if you go for either of those, figure out what is acceptable at 300 yards.

4 MOA @ 300 = 12"
6 MOA @ 300 = 18"

Since the average man is 18-20 inches wide, both are "minute of man". My CMP Garand is around 2-2.5 MOA out of the crate. My AKs run between 3.5 and 6 MOA. My Bushmasters were around 3 MOA out of the box. All worked just fine for my purposes.

 

[dstorm1911]

Benezra, ya needa go visit kalinka optics again, ya can get the side rail with low mount weaver rail to convert ANY American scope to slide on off convience. Aside from the Kobra ya have already illustrated and the POSP (which BTW ya can get in many configurations and magnification levels as well as variables etc..) I have one AK collectors hate to see because its setup with all the usual Modular AR crap from the M4 stock (the adapter cost a whopping $9.99 to let your ak use any AR stock) to the 4 rail alluminum handgaurds I then mounted a Yukon night scope on a low mount weaver rail, I have hit coyotes at 150 yards with that scope on many occasions and that 7.62x39 does em in on the spot everytime...


I collect guns, thats for all intents and purposes my "job" these days, I have the AR/M16 represented in the form of an original and legal model 604 full auto M16 up to the most recent build is a .458 built on DPMS recievers, I have also tried to aquire at least one version of AK issued by every Warsaw pact country that ever issued the rifle, I just completed that endeaver with the building of 4 Czech VZ58s, my milled AKs are extremally accurate with QUALITY ammo but these VZ58s just blow them away hands down and minute of angle groups from bag rests is very easy again with quality ammo, ya will never get any accuracy from an AK fireing the cheapest ammo ya can find. Likewise my least reliable rifle is that POS model 604 its super finicky about powder as the direct impingment gas system fauls the hell outa the inside of the reciever especially on full auto, The direct gas impingment is both a plus and a minus for the AR it aids acuracy but it kills reliability, my next AR just for the hell of it will have a gas piston conversion upper as I've played with several and really like them......... but thats adding your entire budget of $1500 just to make it shoot.....

If modularity is your priority, ya can literally do anything to an AK that ya can add to an AR but at half the cost...... Weight, uhhhh a basic AK with plastic furniture actually weighs LESS than an AR by a whole pound,

Don't however by a WASR or a SAR and think they represent a REAL AK, get one of the Kit guns built from a polish kit or even a Ronanian "G" kit, if ya wanna modify it etc.. stay away from the Yugo, excellent quality but they use different forends etc... than a standard AK, and milled is heavier but does improve accuracy considerable, however at $800 for a milled AK ya can build a VZ58 ($700 for an ORF milled reciever plus all 922R compliance parts etc..) and then a kit for $54 from Centerfire systems, easiest built ever, its all snap together, just remove the kits barrel from trunion stub, press it into new reciever, install parts the first one took me 45 minutes the next 3 took me 20 minutes ea!!! not including parking and painting (moly resin) the recievers that is..


The vz58 is still used by the Czechs but its been updated with all the M4 type goodies, those posts above going on bout not being able to add or upgrade AKs just shows how little the posters actually knows about the AK platform, but then................ I love it when I'm at a public range and some guy starts talking crap bout onea my FALs or an AK so he can justify that he spent way to much for his alluminum and plastic gun, about the time his AR starts jamming I'll useually get onea the AKs out and start hitting the same target he couldn't hit at 200 or 300 yards then swap to a L1A1 and proceed to dump mag after mag of 7.62x51 into the 500 yard gong............. ya can hear it when the .308 HITS the gong as well as SEE it swing....... the 5.56x45... better have someone watching through the spotting scope to call your shots for ya


Good luck, an if ya wanna learn alot more about the AK platform go to akfiles.com much more accurate info than ya'v gotten here so far (with a few exceptions) a great site covering all the real issues

 

[Manedwolf]

I went for the best of both worlds. Russian-made .223 AK.

 

[ARperson]

I would say AR

Having owned several AR and Several AKs. I can say without a doubt that my worst AR has shot better than my best AK. (Though not by much).

However, while the 7.62X39 is still kind of cheap. It is much cheaper for me to shoot .223 that I can reload and use the brass many many times over. The AR will put the brass in a nice little pile for you so you can collect it you wish. The cheaper shooting, and more accurate rifle, I think will make it easier for your to become a better rifleman in the future because you will shoot more.

The 7.62 may be subject to all kinds of import bans, etc. which would cause the cost to go much higher than .223 or 5.56.

AK ammo is cheap now, but what about after an Obama or Hillary presidency?

ARs are easy to work on, easy to get parts for, easy to customize, easy to change calibers if .223 doesn't do it for you. You have the option of .223, 7.62X39, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and several others with a barrel or barrel and bolt swap. All of which is very easy on AR platform.

It really all just comes down to what you want though. But in my opinion, you will get what you pay for. A cheap AK will be just that. An good (expensive) AK is much much better, but still just not quite up to AR standards for me.

 

[C-grunt]

IMO if you want to become a better rifleman, the sights on an AR will help teach you the fundamentals better.

 

[Geno]

Tdubya +1

Tdubya said, "...you dont want to spend over $1500 hm...got my AR-15 for $875 (20inch Bushmaster) and my Romanian AK-47 for $367 that comes out to $1242 BUY both..."

There you go! I have the Bushmaster 16" and like it a lot. I like the AK47 but have never had one.

Doc2005

 

[dolanp]

Both are good rifles and both will serve you well. You can argue till the cows come home about accuracy, ballistics, reliability, etc. If you had to use one in SHTF they will both kill people pretty dead and in casual shooting they are both quite fun.

I went with the AK for my first one but I spent a little coin to get a nice one (Saiga in AK103 config).

 

[MechAg94]

The AR will be easier to shoot accurately. The big brand names are easier to find.
On AK's, accuracy is not always there.

AK mags are very reliable, especially steel combloc mags that are cheap. The polymer mags are good, but not as good.
AR mags are comparably priced, but you need to be careful what you buy. Any old mag won't do you very well. C-Products with magpul followers. Most AR problems are mag related in my experience.

Accessories are available for both.

Steel cased ammo is the same price for either. Brass for .223 will be more. Few people want brass for an AK, but it is available.

AK's are very reliable with a quality weapon, but they do require some cleaning, contrary to popular belief. Not all AK's are reliable, but if you have a good one, it can be bullet proof.
The AR's are very reliable, but do best with proper cleaning and lubrication. Overlubing an AR will give you all sorts of hangups.

 

[Garrabo]

The AR-15 is under rated when compared to the 7.62x39. I think the advantages of the .223 out weigh the AK. I would rather have a mini 30
to shoot 7.62x39 thru. The killing potential of the .223 is under estimated
big time. Ak's are cool guns but I dont care for all the uncertainties surrounding the AK. An AK wont kill you any faster than a .223
I think what makes an AK stand out in everyones mind is the fact that so many where made. I would take a bushmaster .223 any day over an AK.
when I take my Ak and my bushmaster .223 to the shooting range the .223 blows chunks out of the wall while the 7.62 does not.
just my 2 cent's.

 

[4fingermick]

the 7.62 'was yours' much the same as it was 'ours.' I suppose the young guys in the Army these days look on the 7.62 NATO much as I looked on the 303 and lots of yankee soldiers looked on the 3006 when they were using it in the 60s. Good round though.

What's TSHTF?

I can't imagine anyone being well equipped with a military style semi auto as a first rifle, especially where hunting is involved. Sort of encouraging double tapping and spray and pray.

I'd be recommending a scoped bolt gun in 223, 243, or 308 depending on what game you will be hunting. In fact a 22 bolt gun or lever would be a good first rifle. I realise you have lots of experience, but if you learn to be an effective woods rifleman, it is a great experience and I don't think a black stick is the machine to do that. It is an awesome rifle where it's well suited, popping bad guys.

 

[1BLINDREF]

4fingermick
I'm buying an AR for plinking and for if The Sh*t Hits The Fan (TSHTF) or popping bad guys as you put it. I'm not a hunter, so I don't intend an AR for hunting 4 legged creatures.
Thanks for responding to my post

 

[Wasz]

Hmm I just had a thought and I kinda wanted to get it out of my head. Im fond of the idea of a SHTF rifle that will fire no matter what, so I always leaned towards the AK in my head.

That said, in a SHTF situation, it would be much easier for a smaller female (wife, girlfriend, mother, whatever) to use an AR. I hadnt considered that before. Just thought Id add that.

 

[Manedwolf]

AK mags are very reliable, especially steel combloc mags that are cheap. The polymer mags are good, but not as good.

The crappy ProMag ones are not good, but the Belgian waffle mags are, IMO, better than the steel ones.

 

[Reginhild]

.

He has decided on an AR15. Here is his new thread for AR15 questions:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=250292