First thoughts: don't want guns storage laws, but...

[NIGHTLORD40K]

IMO, the same Progressives who would take our guns and rights are the same people that in many ways are responsible for the weakening of our societal structures and the decline of the traditional family.

Bingo!

 

[danez71]

I actually agree with you on this, but playing devil's advocate, one could say that charging the parents is passing the buck.

Did we do everything our parents commanded in our teens?

There needs to be balance. I've also read and heard comments from more "progressive" minded friends that if your gun is stolen, then you should be charged with accessory to whatever crime occurs with it

So where do we draw the line?

I didn't say the kid should get off and only the parents charged.


Wheres the line? Honestly, I don't know exactly.

IMO, The dad that gave the guns back, more than once, to the Parkland shooter should be charged.

In this case, there hasn't been enough made public for me to have an opinion of the dads role yet. A couple of the students said they didn't see warning signs and he seem like a nice kid. A few Facebook posts about guns but nothing alarming and apparently a lot less than some post here.

It possible the kid internalized everything and snapped with out much warning signs.


One thing I saw on Fox was some child development expert said something to the effect of the out of the last 27 school shootings, only 4 had an active father figure in the home. That boys were being lost on their way to manhood with out that figure in the home. And boys tend to lash out when they feel they aren't being heard.

People can blame the libs, the schools, the video games, MTV,,,, but it starts in the home.

 

[mokin]

... I have a patient who spent most of his working career as a cattle buyer for Stark Wetzel. For those of you not familiar with that particular flavor, cattle buyers with a few notable exceptions make used car salesmen and carnies look like Sister Theresa. This… Gentlemen once mentioned in passing that if you can get people to ask the questions you want them to,the answers don't really matter. I'm beginning to believe that we are being hoodwinked on the school shooter question much in the same direction. Perhaps, it would be better to stop asking how we can prevent these things and start asking what we did wrong that they happened in the first place.

Nice one...

This is why language matters. This is bigger than "AR's" (when was an Armalite used in a shooting...?), assault "clips", high capacity..., whatever?... And video games... Really!?

We are not even asking the right questions.

 

[mokin]

One thing I saw on Fox was some child development expert said something to the effect of the out of the last 27 school shootings, only 4 had an active father figure in the home. That boys were being lost on their way to manhood with out that figure in the home. And boys tend to lash out when they feel they aren't being heard.

People can blame the libs, the schools, the video games, MTV,,,, but it starts in the home.

+1

 

[Officers'Wife]

The main point, to all those making ridiculous analogies, is simple.

If you have an all american family and the kids have unsupervised access to guns and they don't use them to harm others, then we are all good. That is how I grew up too!

But guns are dangerous enough that the judgement call by the parent needs to come with consequences. There are a few % of household out there where the parent/guardian cannot trust their kid 100% and they know it (broken curfew, drugs, signs of instability, whatever) and they continue to leave guns out. If their poor judgement leads to the kid taking and using the gun in a crime, then those parents need to go to prison and we need to splash that on the news.

All that sounds good in principle and I'm sure that it is a very satisfying idea. But let's get down to facts here. American parents are only allowed two methods of disciplining their children under the statute. Using any other method, is a crime under the so-called child abuse laws since the great white father in Indianapolis has decided that since one percent of the parents that used one method of discipline overzealously means no parent has the judgment to decide the discipline of their children.

Unfortunately, there are some children that do not respond to the "approved" methods. So again, since a small percentage of the children cannot be discipline effectively due to the restrictions of law, you now want to inflict further onerous restrictions on the whole in the holy name of prevention. So let's use a phrase that was all too common back in the 30s – let's have a "new deal." Let's actually study these killer children and find the root cause. Then deal with the root cause. Let's take an honest look at all the restrictions put on the people as a result of the actions of a minuscule few. Let's get rid of all the laws passed in haste they were advertised to have such wonderful results that haven't done a bloody thing to prevent what was advertised. Let's go back to the idea that we are a nation of laws not of men. Let's go back to the idea presented by Rousseau that sometimes people need to be removed from society to ensure that society be peaceful. Even better, let's bring back the attitude that when a mom says –" just wait to your dad gets home" – the child responds with -I'll be good- instead of – "I'm calling the welfare department." Quite frankly, I am getting sick and bloody tired of people that have no children telling me how I have failed in raising my child.

If you want parents to be responsible for their children… Then get the government out of child raising. Let the parents decide what discipline is appropriate for their child. Punishment detail involving an ax and thirty rod of fence row grown up in brush is not child abuse. It is not pleasant, true. But aching muscles and vegetation scratches heal. And there are some kids that that form of punishment is the only thing that works. The halls of Congress, the nice clean offices in town cannot make that determination. It has been a great and grand experience letting the village raise the child. And as a result we have discovered the village raises spoiled and violent brats. It's time to give it back to the mother and father in the hopes we can have children that don't go around killing each other. Your gun safes are forcing responsibility to people that you have stolen the authority of parenting through your myriad restrictions that HAVE NOT WORKED! It's time to go back to the place where it did work.

(My name is Selena and I am a ranter )

 

[vito]

No reasonable law can be passed mandating safe storage of firearms that will guarantee that such shootings will not happen. A law that specifically lays out how a gun must be stored will not stop the next school shooting, which then could lead to the storage law being made more and more restrictive. Before you know it the law will mandate storage in such a manner as to make it literally impossible to access your firearm for an emergency, or will be cost prohibitive for the casual citizen that owns one or two guns and is unwilling to buy a $3,000 safe. I have the same fears to laws that mandate training. It is all too easy to see how anti-gunners could push for more and more required training prior to anyone legally permitted to own, much less carry a firearm, ensuring that virtually all gun ownership would be deemed criminal. We already have laws that allow for consequences to grossly negligent behavior that results in injuries or death. I think we should leave it at that.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Laws don't prevent crime but a police state could.
It would also usher in things far worse.

 

[Swifty Morgan]

Without getting into criminal law, I can tell you it's already possible to sue an irresponsible parent for negligence. You would think that would have discouraged Adam Lanza's mom from storing an AR-15 in a "safe" that was basically a cookie tin with a lock.

In addition to plain old negligence, which is a broad term that fits lots of situations, there is a tort called negligent entrustment. If I lend my car to a drunk, and he kills people on the highway, I am legally responsible. The same principle applies to guns. You may not like it, but your feelings are not law and will not make a lawsuit go away.

The big problem with tort suits is that you can't sue people who don't have any money, unless you like paying lawyers to waste their time.

 

[George P]

IMO, The dad that gave the guns back, more than once, to the Parkland shooter should be charged.

IMO, the school admin that knew about him but under-reported his incidents, the Sheriff and the FBI are the3 culpable ones; they ALL knew about him and did nothing.

 

[George P]

Laws don't prevent crime but a police state could.
It would also usher in things far worse.

There have been many police states throughout history, including some infamous ones from the last century; did not prevent crime; but they did turn honest folks into informants out of fear.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

There have been many police states throughout history, including some infamous ones from the last century; did not prevent crime; but they did turn honest folks into informants out of fear.

Germany under the Nazi's was a pretty safe place if you were of the proper race.

 

[danez71]

IMO, the school admin that knew about him but under-reported his incidents, the Sheriff and the FBI are the3 culpable ones; they ALL knew about him and did nothing.

I don't think the school under reported him... they did several times.

I agree about the other 2.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

IMO, the school admin that knew about him but under-reported his incidents, the Sheriff and the FBI are the3 culpable ones; they ALL knew about him and did nothing.

There was a 4th
PROMISE (Preventing Recidivism through Opportunities, Mentoring, Interventions, Support & Education)

 

[Tommygunn]

Germany under the Nazi's was a pretty safe place if you were of the proper race.

~~~and a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party......

 

[P5 Guy]

Are there an equal number of cases where a 'LatchKey' kid was able to prevent a crime by having access to the parent's firearm?

 

[vito]

When my kids were young I was an Army officer living on various military bases. In those days I owned one gun, a handgun, for home defense (there was no legal concealed carry then). The gun was left loaded, unsecure, in my bedside table. All of my children knew the basics of gun safety as well as how to shoot that handgun. We never had a single problem, not even remotely. All my kids knew that the one thing that was never to be discussed with their friends was Dad's gun. Further, my bedroom was off limits to all of my kid's friends, and in fact, my kids did not go in my bedroom without permission. Oddly, despite their early familiarity with a gun, none of my kids, now all middle aged, have any interest in guns or anything to do with them. One daughter is vehemently anti gun. Even one son, who was an LEO, never owned a gun other than his service pistol and never carried off duty even when it was legal and encouraged. In today's America, I don't think I would leave a loaded unlocked gun in a bedside table even with kids well versed in gun safety. The world has changed, and not for the better.

 

[George P]

I don't think the school under reported him... they did several times.

I agree about the other 2.

What they did was under-report the type of incidents; i.e., instead of reporting them as major situations, they toned it down to prevent the school-to-prison pipeline so often mentioned in the news.

 

[George P]

When my kids were young I was an Army officer living on various military bases. In those days I owned one gun, a handgun, for home defense (there was no legal concealed carry then). The gun was left loaded, unsecure, in my bedside table. All of my children knew the basics of gun safety as well as how to shoot that handgun. We never had a single problem, not even remotely. All my kids knew that the one thing that was never to be discussed with their friends was Dad's gun. Further, my bedroom was off limits to all of my kid's friends, and in fact, my kids did not go in my bedroom without permission. Oddly, despite their early familiarity with a gun, none of my kids, now all middle aged, have any interest in guns or anything to do with them. One daughter is vehemently anti gun. Even one son, who was an LEO, never owned a gun other than his service pistol and never carried off duty even when it was legal and encouraged. In today's America, I don't think I would leave a loaded unlocked gun in a bedside table even with kids well versed in gun safety. The world has changed, and not for the better.

Sad but true. My kids were the same way. My 357 sat in my nightstand drawer for years. They never touched it or told their friends about it; I had no issues or problems. My kids weren't angels; they had issues with other kids in school, but it was just unthinkable back in the 80s and 90s where we lived for a kid to bring a gun to school to "settle a score".

Maybe we need to bring back boxing and let those kids don the gloves and settle it in the ring

 

[danez71]

What they did was under-report the type of incidents; i.e., instead of reporting them as major situations, they toned it down to prevent the school-to-prison pipeline so often mentioned in the news.

I guess it's a matter of opinion.

IMO, the school notified; sure it could have been fluffed up more but the investigation of the reports made by the school and others fell flat.

The link has a pretty good time line of the school's and others reporting him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...-shooter-nikolas-cruz/?utm_term=.09a6de0ce263

 

[Hertzer]

I do have children and now grand children, I had a gun safe in the house when they were growing up as well, as a theft prevention rather than to keep them unreachable. I found out a few years ago (he was 35 then and has kids of his own) that my son had learned the combination for the safe when he was 14 because he was in my den watching football and watched his mother open the safe to put some jewelry away she wasn't going to wear for a while saw the combination wrote it down and used it to show off to his friends when mom and I weren't home.
Bottom line is kids are inquisitive and not stupid they know where almost everything in the house is stored so you can try but don't bet they can't get at it despite what you do. So how do you legislate something like that?

 

[TJ AK-74]

Johnandersonoutdoors said: "Parents/guardians should be getting 5 to 10 years prison when their kid murders someone with a gun, to which they gave the kid unsupervised access. Maybe then these idiot parents will decide to fix up their disfunctional households."
Yeah, sending the parent(s) to prison is gonna help their dysfunctional household function so much better..... This is your idea, but the parents of the shooters are the people that you're calling idiots? Might want to look in the mirror for that particular adjective.

 

[Robert]

Much like the other secure your guns thread, I'm pulling the plug on this before we get to a point we things become too heated and emotional. Call it a gut feeling.