Flat Point Bullet Question

[Ridgerunner665]

Also...as Bottom Gun says above...you'll need a little faster powder with the copper solids.

In my 10mm, I too had to abandon Accurate #9 for a little faster powder...13.5 grains of heavily compressed AA9 is all that will fit under the CEB 190 grain solid...that produced 1,275 fps but ES and SD numbers were a little too wide for my taste.

Power Pistol and Longshot are near ballistic twins in the 10mm...I have both and tried both, but decided on Power Pistol simply because that can of powder is over 10 years old, the Longshot is just a few months old, I'll use the Longshot after I use up the Power Pistol...I have not thoroughly tested this load yet, but I expect better SD, ES, and velocity from Power Pistol and Longshot with this bullet, which has very reduced bearing surface.

The bullet in the pic was recovered after penetrating 16" of solid ground/slate rock, impact velocity was 1,275 fps...notice the machine marks still visible indicating the reduced bearing surface....this is not a flawed bullet, that is exactly the way Cutting Edge makes them, says so right on the website....they are telling the truth in their ads, right down to the .001" of an inch....exactly as advertised.

By the way...the meplat on this bullet is 31 caliber (78% of bullet caliber)

 

[Rule3]

For the OP. I have noting against the 357 Sig. It is a fine round and has great velocity,

Here in Florida we tend to kill all the Panthers with Cars! Not many left.

When out in the "Jungle" down here we have to beware of Bears,Panthers, Feral Hogs, Burmese Pythons, Alligators, Rattlesnakes, Moccasins, Coral Snakes, deadly spiders and Monitor Lizards (yes really) Let along the mosquitoes! My biggest fear is the Lightening!

I just bring my Wife as I can run faster than she can!

Chose your bullet carefully.

http://www.massreloading.com/357sig.html

 

[JO JO]

If it was me and going around dangerous game often I would look at it this way, are you alone or will you have others to protect if needed, we only have one life and guns are $500/$600 or so range why not budget for a good woods gun ? I for one would not feel comfortable facing off with a predator with a 9mm / 357 sig
Just last week there was a teenage boy pulled out his sleeping bag and mulled by a black bear camping in my region bet he wishes he had a 44mag on his hip, I myself would budget for a woods gun really if you're life could be on the line what's a few extra ounces of weight to carry , I have always looked at it as guns are tools and you need to have the right one for the job,
Just my opinion for what ever its worth

 

[Bottom Gun]

What testing medium do you use where only XTP and Gold Dot stays together and at what velocity do you test them?

I normally torture test my loads by shooting water filled plastic jugs because that’s the easiest and I’m lazy. If I want to get serious about checking wound channels, I’ll bale up newspapers and soak the bale in a water filled cooler for a few days prior. I don’t do that very often though because it’s a lot of trouble and the cleanup sucks. Did I mention that I was lazy? I’m so lazy I even married a pregnant woman once.

My notes are somewhat incomplete but here goes:

In my P229’s using 115 gr bullets in Barsto barrels with 13.2 gr of AA#9, my velocities average 1435 to 1493 fps with two different pistols. With 7.6 gr Bullseye, the 115 gr averages 1443.
With 124 gr and 12.2 gr of AA#9, I average 1340 to 1360 fps in two pistols. With 124 gr and 6.8 gr Bullseye, the average is 1290 to 1300.
Factory 124 gr Gold Dots average 1348.
With 90 gr XTP and 8.5 gr Bullseye it averages 1625. With 9.0 gr Bullseye, the average is 1684 to 1744. 90 gr with 13.2 gr AA#9 was 1347 with LOTS of flash due to incomplete ignition. I’ve found the 90 gr doesn’t stabilize as well as 115 gr and heavier.

In my P226 with 115 gr XTP and 13.2 gr AA#9, the average is 1547 fps
Gold Dot factory 124 gr in the P226 is 1413 fps.
I can’t find the rest of my notes on the P226 loads. Sorry.

In my P239 with Barsto barrel, 115 gr bullets with 7.6 and 7.8 gr Bullseye average 1395 to 1462. 115 gr with 14.0 AA#9 was 1531 but showed signs of pressure so I backed off. 124 gr with 6.8 gr Bullseye average 1275 to 1333 fps. 90 gr with 9.0 gr Bullseye was 1655 to 1674. 90gr XTP with 13.2 gr AA#9 was 1437 with incomplete ignition. Sierra 125 gr with 6.8 gr Bullseye was 1286 to 1300 fps.
Gold Dot factory 124 gr averaged 1367

Please note that unless I specified a particular bullet, various brands and configurations were used. Bullets used were Sierra, Zero, Montana Gold, XTP, Xtreme plated and Gold Dot. I was remiss in noting all bullet styles as I was more concerned with accuracy and noting signs of excess pressure. Did I mention that I am lazy?

 

[eastbank]

as in a gun fight, the best gun will be the one you have with you at that time. eastbank.

 

[Bottom Gun]

I for one would not feel comfortable facing off with a predator with a 9mm / 357 sig

I appreciate your concern but I simply don't want to carry a different gun. I have plenty of pistols and revolvers now. I've been carrying various sidearms for half a century including five years in law enforcement. I've carried everything from .22 to .44 mag in both pistols and revolvers. I practice regularly, have been through the Front Sight pistol class, have a shelf full of combat trophies and feel quite comfortable with my ability and my choice of sidearms.
I do have a question though, How many .357 Sigs do you or have you owned?

 

[Bottom Gun]

The bullet in the pic was recovered after penetrating 16" of solid ground/slate rock, impact velocity was 1,275 fps...notice the machine marks still visible indicating the reduced bearing surface....this is not a flawed bullet, that is exactly the way Cutting Edge makes them, says so right on the website....they are telling the truth in their ads, right down to the .001" of an inch....exactly as advertised.

That's pretty impressive. I may have to look at those bullets if the Lehigh bullets I have don't work out for me. Looks like bullet technology is finally starting to catch up to our needs. It's about time.

 

[JO JO]

I don't own a 357 sig, I to have worked in LE and 10 years in the service and have plenty of stuff to hang on the wall but I consider that my wall hangers won't protect me , that being said I also agree having a gun is better than not having one, you asked for advice folks are offering some ,

 

[Shawn Dodson]

If it were me I'd have no problem using factory loaded .357 SIG Hornady 135gr Critical Duty or Speer Gold Dot 125gr cartridges. Both loads penetrate deeply enough to reach vitals. They reliably expand to increase wound trauma. The FBI automotive windshield test is a good indicator of how a handgun load will perform against heavy bone, and both loads perform well.

 

[Bottom Gun]

I don't own a 357 sig, I to have worked in LE and 10 years in the service and have plenty of stuff to hang on the wall but I consider that my wall hangers won't protect me , that being said I also agree having a gun is better than not having one, you asked for advice folks are offering some

Please don't misunderstand, I do appreciate the advice. My mind, however is made up and I feel quite comfortable with my choice. I posted this thread because I was looking for feedback on bullet style rather than firearm choice. I'll most likely regret ignoring some of the great advice I've gotten here when a bear is gnawing on my backside after he sticks my Sig up my butt but for now I'll take my chances. I suppose I might be more attentive to advice from those who have real world experience with this cartridge and actually shoot it but that's just me.

I also appreciate the bear spray advice from another member here but I don't want to have to wear a duty belt full of equipment every time I'm out in the forest, which is quite often since I'm retired now. I carry a sidearm and an extra magazine. If I can't make do with that, it's my own fault. These are black bear after all. I might think differently if I lived in Grizzly or Brown Bear country. Loading yourself down with too much equipment tends to take the fun out of an excursion.

 

[Bottom Gun]

If it were me I'd have no problem using factory loaded .357 SIG Hornady 135gr Critical Duty or Speer Gold Dot 125gr cartridges.

I carry the 125 gr Gold Dots now but thought it might be better to use something that penetrated deeper. I do intend to compare the Gold Dots and XTPs to the Lehigh bullets. In my testing to date, the Gold Dots and XTPs work equally well. I'll let you know how the copper bullets compare.

 

[vaalpens]

I normally torture test my loads by shooting water filled plastic jugs

This is what I also use. If it holds up in water jugs, then it should hold up in gel.

Factory 124 gr Gold Dots average 1348.

The V-Crown Sierra 125gr JHP #9925 was tested at about 1288fps (60 below your velocity) without any weight loss. Are you sure you tested this bullet, or did you test the 9mm bullet in 357sig?

Gold Dot factory 124 gr in the P226 is 1413 fps.

I will increase my velocity with the Sierra V-Crown bullet next time and test it for expansion and weight retention. I will have to wait for the National Forest (Tonto) to be opened up again for recreational shooting before I can do any of my testing. Last year it opened on 7/25, so hopefully it will open soon since we had some rain.

 

[Zendude]

I saw one gel test with a wadcutter. The tester was trying to determine if the wound cavity was significantly different from a solid round nose bullet. The test showed no significant difference between the two.
YMMV

 

[Bottom Gun]

The V-Crown Sierra 125gr JHP #9925 was tested at about 1288fps (60 below your velocity) without any weight loss. Are you sure you tested this bullet, or did you test the 9mm bullet in 357sig?

I probably used 9MM bullets in the .357 Sig cases. I got a great deal on a quantity of Sierras a while back. They are the Sierra Power Jacket series. The 115 gr is #8110 and the 125 gr is #8125. They both expanded well but both shed jackets. I should probably load some in 9MM and test them but my best 9MM bullet has proven to be the XTP line. It has been my experience the Sig round requires a bonded bullet to stay together. I’m not sure if the XTP bullets are bonded but the XTP and the Gold Dots are the only bullets I’ve used so far that have retained most of their original weight so that’s what I use for serious business in the Sig. They both penetrate equally well. I haven’t tried the V-Crown bullets you mentioned. Are they a bonded bullet?

I’ve had bullets stay together and mushroom perfectly in wet newspaper but the same bullets go to pieces in water jugs so I’m thinking the water jugs are a tougher test for them.

We are finally getting regular rain here near the border so I’m expecting them to open Coronado forest soon as well. The Lyle Canyon wash, which runs past my property, ran strong all day yesterday. That's a good sign.

I saw one gel test with a wadcutter. The tester was trying to determine if the wound cavity was significantly different from a solid round nose bullet. The test showed no significant difference between the two.

Thank you for sharing that. That is exactly the type of information I was hoping to get when I started this thread. It isn’t exactly the answer I was hoping for but it is the info I wanted. I was hoping for a larger wound channel from the flat nose but apparently that doesn’t happen.

 

[Rule3]

Here ya go. Ballistic tests.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/357 SIG/357 SIG.html

 

[Bottom Gun]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/357 SIG/357 SIG.html

Thanks!! That is an excellent article. I hadn't considered the points he makes regarding gas pressure and cooling. He makes good sense.
We may make a .357 Sig fan out of you yet

 

[murf]

they opened up the coconino n. f. to shooting on the thirteenth (down from stage II to stage I fireban). nothing yet on the other az national forests. just loaded up a hundred rounds getting ready for that day. it's raining here now up by prescott. can't wait.

murf

 

[Rule3]

Thanks!! That is an excellent article. I hadn't considered the points he makes regarding gas pressure and cooling. He makes good sense.
We may make a .357 Sig fan out of you yet

Never said I was not a fan. It is a fine caliber.

I have a 327 Federal Mag Revolver, it "claims" to be close to a 357 Mag . I chronographed a 115 Gold Dot at over 1200 fps in a 2" snubby

Would I carry it for bear, cougar defense? No.

 

[Bottom Gun]

I have a 327 Federal Mag Revolver, it "claims" to be close to a 357 Mag . I chronographed a 115 Gold Dot at over 1200 fps in a 2" snubby

Would I carry it for bear, cougar defense? No.

1200+ fps from a snub nose is impressive. That’s a cartridge I’ve never tried. I’ve heard some good things about it but never knew anyone who actually had one. Do you have any trouble finding projectiles or brass for it? I looked for it in my #49 Lyman to get some idea of the ballistics but it’s not listed.

You use what you have if necessary because any gun is better than no gun at all. I always carry a sidearm when I’m in the forest but I don’t always arm myself with bear encounters in mind. Sometimes, I’ll just carry something I haven’t used in a while. Back in the “good old days” I would slip a .22 kit gun into my pocket and hit the trails. It gave me the illusion of being armed. I also carried a vintage Colt Ace a lot. I used to load it with Stingers and pop jacks with it. I regret selling that pistol but I’ve done many things I regret now.
These days, however, I do have to plan on some type of encounter with the recent increase in border traffic so my minimum caliber is 9MM. I’m a stone’s throw from the border and encounters with our neighbors to the south are common now. Most are friendly but I have seen some real bad hombres come across the line on occasion and they have been armed. For that reason, I have an AR on board when I’m out cruising the trails on my ATV just in case some of the latter type visitors wish to engage in a “cultural exchange”.

 

[Bottom Gun]

The V-Crown Sierra 125gr JHP #9925 was tested at about 1288fps (60 below your velocity) without any weight loss. Are you sure you tested this bullet, or did you test the 9mm bullet in 357sig?

If you use these bullets regularly, I wanted to mention that Powder Valley is offering 10% off Sierra Bullets right now.
The promo code is sierra10

 

[vaalpens]

If you use these bullets regularly, I wanted to mention that Powder Valley is offering 10% off Sierra Bullets right now.
The promo code is sierra10

Thanks for the information.

I will reload them maybe once in a few months and I am lucky that there is a local store close by selling them. Their current price is $19.60 +tax per 100, which is also a good price.

 

[someguy2800]

I have tested regular Berry's plated bullets in 9mm, 38 special, and 357 magnum. The 357 magnum was a 125 gr FP at probably like 1200 fps and the 9mm was a 124 target HP. When shot into milk jugs filled with water they do not expand or flatten and it takes a heck of alot of water jugs to stop them. I remember with a 9mm it went through 7 jugs and I still had to put a rock behind the last jug to stop it. It showed no expansion and had a big scrape on one side from hitting the rock. I never captured one in the 38 special or 357 in water jugs. I shot some of the 38 special loads into a 50 lb bag of wood pellets once and dug through it to find it. They all looked like they could be loaded again. A Berry's bullet is basically a copper plated hard cast bullet. The alloy used in the core is much harder than a jacketed bullet.

 

[vaalpens]

We are finally getting regular rain here near the border so I’m expecting them to open Coronado forest soon as well. The Lyle Canyon wash, which runs past my property, ran strong all day yesterday. That's a good sign.

I was looking at the Coronado fire restriction notice and it seems it is in effect until July 25th if not rescinded earlier. Looks like you can utilize Coronado again start July 26th.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd547366.pdf

At Tonto the restriction is in effect until are August 30th if not rescinded earlier. I have to wait awhile, but I am hoping it will be the same as 2016 when it was rescinded after July 25th.

 

[Bottom Gun]

I was looking at the Coronado fire restriction notice and it seems it is in effect until July 25th if not rescinded earlier. Looks like you can utilize Coronado again start July 26th.

Thanks for the heads up. Actually, they lifted the restrictions today in the Coronado forest. I'm putting a few things together right now to take out. Looks like I'll have to shoot between rain showers though.
Hopefully, Tonto will reopen sooner. August is still along way off.