Florida Officials Bow to Doc's "Three Points" of ZT

[joab]

This will be my only response to Rick as I inadvertently temporarily removed him from my ignore list

I would suggest that you actually read the statute you are claiming exempts this girl from 790.115

The exception in House Bill No. 1291 is for pocketknives, PLASTIC or BLUNT BLADED table knives not steak knives which at the very least implies a sharp if not serrated blade

So once again you are incorrect, she did violate the sate statute making it a 3rd degree felony to bring a knife onto school property
The only difference is that under the new definitions she would be charged with possession of a weapon, not a knife

And now we all know why we should never take someone's unsubstantiated opinionated rhetoric as fact

 

[jmr40]

If you will read my posts carefully I never said that the girl broke any laws. I believe that the biggest sticking point between you and I, is that I think it wise to involve the police in the investigaton. When these incidents happen at my school the following happens. The police and parents are both called. The kid goes home with the parents and is not allowed back until the conclusion of the investigation. Usually 2-3 days. If the police determine there was never the intent of a crime the ball is handed back to the school. The kid returns, and the days he has missed are considered his suspension and life goes on. If it is determined to be a crime the kid is first withdrawn, and arrested off campus. I believe it wise to allow police to conduct the investigation because they have information about things going on at home and in the community that may be a factor that the school would have no way of knowing. Gang activity, child abuse etc. Right up to the point where the girls parents could not be found it appears Florida officials were using the same exact procedure.

 

[jmr40]

Sorry for several short posts, but I'm having trouble when I try to post one long one. I"m not just a teacher, I am also a parent, uncle and soon to be grandfather. I would like to see further changes to these laws, but if this had happened 10 years ago the punishment would have much worse. There were few if any ways out for a kid who made a simple mistake. Teachers have pushed for these changes from the beginning.

Several posters have implied that we as teachers should have ignored the law and simple taken the knife and shut up. As tempting as that is if you read my previous posts that can come back to haunt you later. For what it is worth I have done so in the past, but only when there were no other witnesses and I was 100% sure of the kid. We all comply with laws everyday that we don't agree with. It is simply not worth risking my career or freedom to protect a kid from a 3 day suspension.

 

[chieftain]

Zero Tolerance rules/laws are irrational. It should read ZERO REASON!

Instead we are a country rapidly become a country of no tolerance. Unfortunately that is EXACTLY one of our founding principles.

If reason does not apply, it is not reasonable.

Just for a simple example. Let's make a very reasonable law/rule that anyone that kills some one is a criminal.

So much for accidents and self defense. REASON MUST BE APPLIED TO ALL ACTS. We can argue about what is reasonable, but do not take reason away.

The lack of reason allows rule's NAZI's to do their worst. They do much damage in the name of following the rules, and no tolerance or reason is allowed.

That is not the country I grew up in, or a country that will continue. Zero tolerance also means zero liberty, and zero freedom in the end. After all you can't do that because we don't allow it FOR ANY REASON.

Think how that is or would be applied to your guns.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[langenc]

Whatever happened (or is it still happening) to the young lady, medal winning trapshooter that took several boxes of shotgun shells to schooll with her on the back seat of her vehicle??

No intent to do anyone any harm.

 

[Mustanger1]

I'm staying with my first posting and that opinion! JAOB has contacted me by private mail today and informed me that unless I explain myself he will have me removed from the forum. I don't respond very well to threats, I did break a rule so I suppose I am as guilty as that little girl, and undoubtly this will be my last posting. You have a great forum, I enjoyed the time spent here reading the questions and opinions.

 

[joab]

JAOB has contacted me by private mail today and informed me that unless I explain myself he will have me removed from the forum.

That is a lie
I asked you to explain your post
I do not have the power to have anyone removed and never implied that I did
I simply told you to explain your comment or I would notify the moderator of it
As I also said I am sick and tired of these simplistic little immature comments from people that are to lazy to actually participate in the forum

I am also tired of the unequal enforcement of forum rules when I get nasty notes from mods or threads get shut down when I defend myself against stupid little comments like your's

And I see that you still have not bothered to explain the comment, but you do play the victim well
Nice twist also

 

[Geno]

langenc:

Was that in Montmorency county, MI? I have not heard of that one, but am deeply interested.

Question: Do you recall the mad-bomber up in Montmorency county, 1989-1990 school year? (I won't say which high school). Dang...now that was uuuugly! The ATF, MSP & FBI busted him in Atlanta, MI in the spring of 1990.

Doc2005

 

[AZRickD]

joab:

I would suggest that you actually read the statute you are claiming exempts this girl from 790.115

Case law, joab. Case law. It's controlling.

You want the 10-year old girl to be familiar with case law? The school administrators and police can't get it straight. How can you possibly support felony prosecution against a girl for behaving normally?

joab:

I get nasty notes from mods or threads get shut down when I defend myself

That should tell you something. You're not a nice person. The foul language you sent to me via PM last week would have gotten you banned had it appeared in the open forum.

Rick

 

[joab]

OK so I was wrong, I can't let things go when they are directed at me

How can you possibly support felony prosecution against a girl for behaving normally?

Here we go again
Can you where have I supported prosecuting her?
I can show where I did not

You want the 10-year old girl to be familiar with case law?

Can you show me where I said that
I can show you where I said she should be aware of the rules against carry knives to school and where another poster supported that through his personal experience

The school administrators and police can't get it straight

Where did they not get it straight
She received a minor suspension for violating school policy and was arrested for carry an illegal weapon on school property in violation of state law, which I have provided.
You have provided nothing to demonstrate that she did not violate state law other than your opinion

That should tell you something. You're not a nice person.

Actually a not nice person would be one that calls for the banning of a member simply because he does not agree with me and will not unquestioningly buy into my incorrect comments and after he shows that I was wrong and I am unable to counter his facts ( you did that not me)

The foul language you sent to me via PM last week would have gotten you banned had it appeared in the open forum.

Which would explain why I sent it in PM
I could not adequately express just how cowardly and dishonest your last post was in open forum, so according to past moderator suggestions I went PM

You want me to play nice, try not twisting my comments to fit your argument

 

[joab]

I have made my points
So unless you or anyone can show where she had the legal right to carry a weapon as defined by 709.1 onto school property or that the police did not have the legal right to take her into custody after attempts to contact her parents (amazingly no one finds fault with that)
And unless you are willing to back up the comments that you are attributing to me I am done with this juvenile twistfest

It has done nothing but demonstrate who here does not have the intellectual capacity to follow a discussion and keep arguments confined to actual comments made and that certain people have no idea what true activism really is

 

[AZRickD]

that calls for the banning

As you very well know, Mr. joab, I didn't call for "banning" you, I called for a "two-week suspension" of you...

And, I did this (you know this as well) as a rhetorical tool to show you how ZT policies can be applied. You violated the rule of this forum by engaging in debate when the purpose of this forum is to call for activism. You knew it was wrong to attempt to hijack this that thread, and yet you did it any way. And you did so with malice. YOU fit Doc's 3-Points of ZT, not the girl.

And then you hijacked this thread. Two strikes just in one week from you.

Perhaps we should teach you a lesson and put you on our Ignore lists for two weeks.

 

[joab]

Perhaps we should teach you a lesson and put you on our Ignore lists for two weeks

You said that last time but as I proved you lied about that also
You would not have received the PM if I was on your ignore list

Yes I posted in the activism thread but just because I don't kow tow to you does not mean that I did it with malice

What you were/are advocating is not activism it's simple bitchin' nothing more

Furthermore your lack of research is showing again

The rules regarding knives have been in place as long as this girl has been in school
She or her parents signed an agreement to follow those rules before attending the school
This activism forum was not an entity when I joined here and I signed nothing stating that I would only participate in it if the issues was activism worthy

You yourself are in violation of your made up rules in that you have not advocated activism you have only suggested a feel good activity with no useful purpose and then proclaimed yourself the victor when the game played out as was predictable

You asked me questions about my position and I answered them
I asked you to defend your position and you resort to your diversionary rectal tool instead.
I call that cowardly and dishonest

I used to come here for intelligent debate not immature game playing and disinformation
So perhaps you can show me some rule that says that a member can only participate in an activism thread if he is signing on
I can show you the rule and law that says that a person cannot carry a steak knife onto school property

And I see that predictably you once again dodge my direct challenge for you to back up your words about there being no law broken by the girl with the steak knife

 

[AZRickD]

Lied about it? How can I lie about a rhetorical? The purpose was to show you that you can't apply to yourself, the same rules you'd apply to a little girl. I'm never put anyone on my Ignore List.

I used to come here for intelligent debate

You knowingly (twice) violated forum rules by hijacking a thread about activism for your own purposes of debate.

If you want to debate the rightness or wrongness of the actions of the school, police or prosecutors, there is a forum for that (it's called "Legal").

This forum is for activism.

One thing I have learned in my nearly two-decades of activism is that those who activate are rare. Those who throw tomatoes from stage-left (that would be you), are a dime a dozen. Far too many times we've begun a campaign (large and small) and there will always be one or two who want to debate with us one whether we should do it or not or how we should do it or not. They take these pot-shots (on-line) all the while we are at home making picket signs, making calls to bureaucrats, legislators and the press.

As one might suspect, these activism nay-sayers are NEVER seen doing any activism with us or on their own. They just like to yammer.

So, joab, I know you all too well. And, while I'd like to have a few-dozen THR'er teach you a lesson on Zero-Tolerance by putting you on their ignore lists for you violations of forum rules, I simple can't, because you require monitoring.

Thank you to all who have contacted people about this sad little activity in Florida. Joab is incorrect about the worthiness of an e-mail campaign. I've been at this for 20 years. You were heard and you made a difference.

I'm done here.

 

[Geno]

I think Art's Grandma would be pretty upset at this thread. Anyone who doesn't know what I am saying can go read some of the sticky threads around THR.

Here is a link: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270523

Doc2005

 

[AZRickD]

Here are the rule for the Activism forum as seen in the "Read This Before Posting" thread on top:

How this forum works. READ THIS BEFORE POSTING
HERE!

This forum is dedicated to activism to promote the RKBA.

Please use this forum to coordinate and work together. This is the place to organize. Use this forum for campaigns, legal gatherings, letter writing, talking points to push on the media, and things of this nature.

This is not the place to come up with ideas, use L&P for that. This is not the place to debate ideas.

There will be absolutely no arguments or comments about whether a given course of action is a good one. Such arguments always occur in L&P, about every single idea, and then no course of action is taken. This is the place to co-ordinate, not to talk somebody else out of doing anything.

If you cop a defeatist attitude in this forum, we’ll boot you. We don’t have time for crying. Any extraneous posts not directly related to the activity get deleted.

There will be no preferences given to any political party. If you have an activity to organize Republicans or Democrats or Libertarians, it doesn’t matter. Any bashing on any party is not allowed. If you want to do that, take it to L&P. This is not the place to muddy the waters.

In other words, this forum is not L&P II, and we’re not going to let it turn into that. This is a forum to get work done.

 

[joab]

Well reading that it seems like we have both violated the rules, you going into a self imposed suspension?
That would be the unhypocritical thing to do
Are you going to call for the suspension of all others that have participated in the debate including moderators and Doc?

And are you ever going to accept my origoinal challenge or do these dodges speak for themselves

 

[Art Eatman]

Holidays, visiting with friends, watching feetsball games...All that fun stuff.

And then find an off-topic three-page squabble and rant-session? Duh?

C. L. O. S. E. D.

Humph.

Activism forum. As in something like, "How can we change these ZT rules?" but not just ranting on and on about untoward ZT events.

Art