Florida: Student arrested for cutting food with knife

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Oana:

"In addition to the "corrective measures" listed in the Code of Student Conduct, possession of a weapon by any student while the student is on school property or in attendance at a school function may also result in criminal prosecution. (FS 790.115)" (26)

It does not say shall...now go back to the 3 points I listed.

Those who have read my posts know that I was a middle school / high school principal for 5 years. Where the Hades is the common sense here?!?!?!? These people are fools!

Now, I am a graduate professor, instructing people who want to become administrators. These people would flunk my courses.

Doc2005
 
Texas Rifleman:Zero tolerance arguments aside, I'd want to know one thing.

Does the school furnish knives for students to cut food and if so, who cares if there's one more knife?

The stupidity of today's educators continues to astound me.
Click to expand...


Good question. Here's an even better one...

What do the cafeteria staff use to make food for those kids? If they have any knives then they should be arrested as well. And if we're going down that road, if the principal knows that there are sharp knives in the cafeteria, then the principal should be arrested as well.

What ludicrous bullsnot to have a 10-year-old charged with a felony for this. Un-fricken-believable.

Another poster was right - removing "intent" from the equation sends us down a dangerous road.
 
Hey everybody...

If you think this is bad, it's only going to get worse.

Every year the powers-that-be come up with even more inexplicable laws and regulations - if it weren't so serious it would be funny as hell.

And no... I'm not a pessimist - just a realist.

Sorry to point out the obvious.
 
we should raise heck

I'm worried about all the other children getting felonies for the same stuff, the ones under the radar.

Also, yeah, what about food prep in the school? why are those folks not getting felonies?
Who supplied them with the assault kitchen knives?
 
Every year the powers-that-be come up with even more inexplicable laws and regulations - if it weren't so serious it would be funny as hell.
Click to expand...

I think that it's the parents who want them.
 
So here is what you do if found in this situation, have EVERY student bring a steak knife to school to eat their lunch. It's called civil disobedience. What are they going to do? Expel every student for "policy violations"?

This student, if truly accused of a felony, is due a trial by peers. I suppose that means a jury box full of ten year old students. That brings about another possible resolution, jury nullification. A jury by peers would be difficult if it was preceded by a bout of civil disobedience as, I assume, someone accused of a crime cannot be put on jury duty.

This whole thing is full of nonsense.
 
Well, speaking as a former administrator, and a current graduate professor of educational leadership, I for one say it's time to raise some serious Hell on Washington, and on our individual states' "leader"-less fools.

I for one propose to vote-out any and all seated politicians who fail to repeal Zero Tolerance. Anyone want to kick in a couple of dollars to buy about 500 used suitcases? We could send each one of these political fools a suitcase, with a note that says:

Our children are not felons,
nor shall you render them so!

Repeal Zero Tolerance,
or pack this bag!​

Seriously urinated-off!

Doc2005
 
Last year one of the many CODE RED alerts we had in the inner city high school where I teach was a pair of students hunting each other with STEAK KNIVES. The rules are in place for a reason and as a person who sees those reasons every day I can only say that 99% of the population on this board has not CLUE ONE as to the mindset of folks who literally exist "where the rubber hits the road."

An example: If two students are fighting and it is a CLEAR case of aggression and defense (one student "JUMPS" another) BOTH students are still sent to outdoor suspension for ten days. On the surface, that is of course ridiculous. On the street a clear case of self defense is valid to protect yourself from prosecution by our court system. Especially with witnesses.

Conspiracy theorists (like me) might say it is a clear cut example of the system building into our society a sense of submission to authority under any and all circumstances. I think that maybe this is so. However, it's also the ONLY way it can work in a school environment. Just happens to work out like that.
 
Last year one of the many CODE RED alerts we had in the inner city high school where I teach was a pair of students hunting each other with STEAK KNIVES. The rules are in place for a reason and as a person who sees those reasons every day I can only say that 99% of the population on this board has not CLUE ONE as to the mindset of folks who literally exist "where the rubber hits the road."
Click to expand...

Yeah, we got a clue... The case in question involves a 10 year-old girl, using a knife to cut meat in her lunch, not a pair of inter-city high school punks apparently looking to cut up each other. We have a lemons v. apples situation here, but we - unlike some school administrators - can see the difference in age and intent. The "rules," as they are being enforced clearly show the complete incompetence of too many in the education establishment.
 
Having said all of the above, let me also state with an equal amount of certitude, that the zero tolerance policy is STOOOOOPID!

I have a friend whose kid was almost expelled from school because in ART class the little guy made a model of a Glock 21 and fired it in the kiln. So happens that his parents are both NRA Instructors and they both happen to be IDPA competitors as is the kid himself! The two parents met and they were each the President of an IDPA Club. When the marriage happened, the two clubs merged as well. So the kid was literally raised in a home full of guns. The parents had to go into the school and fight to have the kid stay. They won but it was tough. Stuff like that is what sickens me. I also don't see it going away. Why? Well I got this e-mail the other day on the meaning of the term Political Correctness and it rings so true:

The following is the 2007 winning entry from an annual contest at Texas A&M University calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term. This year's term was Political Correctness. The winner wrote, "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
 
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For those of you who advocate "she and her parents should have known the rules":

How in the heck do we stop stupid rules like this if we do not raise our voices when we finally notice a stupid rule when it's enforced?

"Well, I agree the rules are dumb, but them's the rules now, so we gotta all follow them..."

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Human beings use steak knives to eat steak. Maniacs use steak knives as weapons.
 
Last year one of the many CODE RED alerts we had in the inner city high school where I teach was a pair of students hunting each other with STEAK KNIVES.
Click to expand...

Had a student stabbed another with a sharpened pencil would you ban all pencils from the school? What if a student took a swing with a chair? Or a book? But we cannot ban books, chairs, and pencils from schools as student would not be able to learn. It is also quite difficult for students to eat a proper meal without proper utensils. I guess students could suck their meals through a straw.... until one student jabs another in the eye with a straw.

When people desire to cause harm to another they tend to take advantage of whatever is at hand to use as a tool to cause harm. The steak knife wasn't the problem, the students hunting each other was the problem. If they didn't have steak knives I would imagine sharpened pencils would have been used instead.
 
...99% of the population on this board has not CLUE ONE as to the mindset of folks who literally exist "where the rubber hits the road."...
Click to expand...

We all live in the "real world". My great-grandfather was killed by a freakin' shovel.

A "real world" where steak knives should be banned is also a world where baseball bats, cleats, big strong kids, rope, guns, electricity and gravity should also be banned.

How 'bout we PUNISH the murdering idiots who use the above tools/weapons instead of blaming the tool/weapon in the hands of someone trying to eat their lunch?

I am guessing that...hmmmmmm... 100%?!!! of the students of that school had steak knives available at all hours. Unlocked! In their kitchen at home. Probably also available at the unsecured kitchen at school. Very easy to put into a pocket or backpack 24/7.

But use it as designed to cut a nice tasty steak at lunch, and you are BUSTED!

Somehow we have raised a crop of baby boomers who love rules but hate both rule and common sense.
 
Zero tolerance OK
That will sound stupid but Ive seen many handy man working on schools with pocket knifes.

CZhen, Fl
 
I propose that a new topic be started in "Activism". The topic is: What we should do about this.

Also, any details on the type of knife? Perhaps I missed that.
 
Conspiracy theorists (like me) might say it is a clear cut example of the system building into our society a sense of submission to authority under any and all circumstances. I think that maybe this is so. However, it's also the ONLY way it can work in a school environment. Just happens to work out like that.
Click to expand...

Really? It seemed to work fine the other way around until about '75 when the powers that be seemed to decide that "feeling safe" was more important than personal freedom. I got railroaded just as described, some guy randomly(I hadn't ever even talked to him before) beat the snot out of me, and appearently blocking punches and blows to my face from his knees constituted "fighting back" which is just as bad.

Zero tolerance, in practice, is one mechanism among many used to brainwash children into the socialist way of thinking. I may sound kinda crazy, but think about it. All weapons are prohibited, defending oneself is prohibited, the only acceptable way to handle a problem is to go to the school authorities, you're subjected to random search and seizure, you aren't allowed to speak your mind, and you're forced to be there.

All in the name of order, safety and necessity. Pretty Orwellian if you ask me.
 
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When I was in school we were never told "No Knives." We were told "no pocket knives" at some point. And "No weapons" at some point.

But a knife for cutting food? We were provided with metal knives. Now a steak knife can be dangerous, but it was in her lunchbox or whatever and used for eating.

She wasn't pulling it out to show people. She should be punished at a school level (detention) and told not to do it again. She should not be a felon.

Anyone who thinks she should be subject to prosecution really needs to step back, take a look at their beliefs and take a look at the direction those beliefs will take America.

Punishing children severely for this, lawsuits for that, a complete lack of understanding. We're forcing ourselves in a dangerous direction that will only lead to heartbreak and violence.
 
The case presented about the boys fighting with steak knives can not possibly be more distinct from the little girl cutting her food...unless of course the two were not fighting and were in fact cannibals.

Zero Tolerance can be appropriate as in the case that ExSolider presents of students fighting with weapons. Go back to the 3 points! I present them for a reason:

1. Item must constitute a weapon
2. Student must have knowingly brought the weapon
3. Student must have intent to cause great harm, damage, death, etc.

The steak knife fight meets all 3 criteria. The girl cutting her food does not. Should arrest people because they drive home after buying a 6-pack of beer. After all, the criteria are in place: car, driver, and beer. It makes as much sense.

Regarding the following statement, especially those that I have placed in blue, I don't even know where to begin. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If all you have is Zero Tolerance, all children look like felons.

Conspiracy theorists (like me) might say it is a clear cut example of the system building into our society a sense of submission to authority under any and all circumstances. I think that maybe this is so. However, it's also the ONLY way it can work in a school environment. Just happens to work out like that.
Click to expand...

Any educator who truly feels this, needs to enroll in the EDL 515 Executive Leadership and Decision-making course that I instruct. There are alternatives, but they al fall under common sense, and interpreting policies and procedure. Remember, if all you have is a hammer.

Doc2005
 
Hold up! Zero T! knife fight on a school bus...

Before anymore THR.org members read this posting or contact any FL area school employees, stop for one minute and consider this;
Several months ago, two teenage boys got into a stupid fight over a young girl on a school bus next to the school. One young boy pulled a small pocket knife out and killed the other. :uhoh: It was a big mess in the local media(Orange County FL). The local Sheriff; Kevin Beary(a former NRA LEO of the year, ;)) made a big issue over kids not allowed to have ANY knives, edged weapons, etc! This is the reason why no children are allowed to "bring from home" anything that could injury or kill another student.
I know it may be harsh but fair is fair.
Rusty S
 
Rusty:

Apply the case of the 10-year-old girl to the 3 criteria of Zero Tolerance:

Waiting...

Doc2005
 
:scrutiny:Doc is right on...

Criminals use guns and other weapons to hurt and even kill people. Therefore to stop this we should prohibit everybody from having guns or other weapons, right? Well no, but this is the zero tolerance solution.

What is different between armed criminals and (hopefully) the members of this forum is not ownership of weapons, but the intention toward how they should be used. The criminal uses weapons to take that which is not his or hers. Others use weapons to protect themselves from criminals.

Zero tolerance laws and policies remove consideration of intent. Further, they sometimes make an attacker and the victim equal when it comes to blame. There is no relationship between the intent of those illegally using weapons of any kind - such as the high school age boys cited in the above posts, and a 10 year-old girl using a knife to cut meat in her lunch.

If you see this otherwise it's time to turn in our kitchen knives - and guns.
 
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