Florida: Student arrested for cutting food with knife

[Owens]

Doc2005,

That is just what I have felt all along about this type of ZT 'garbage'. Guess I was trying to prod a few other folks to take an active role too.

To add, I haven't heard of any 'events' here locally though. Either they haven't occurred or they are real good at keeping it quiet.

 

[Geno]

Owens:

If ever your grandkids have troubles, PM me immediately. I'll help pass you you some "posterior-beating sticks".

You can't go wrong with picking up a Grad School Ed Law text and reviewing it. They cover a VERY wide body of info. Then, proactively seek-out the handbooks and policy and procedures from the Brd. Finally, get to know the administrative team. Attend the Brd of Education meetings. Get yourself onto some committees...especially the Handbook Review Committee.

Geno

 

[Robert Hairless]

joab:

Any knife is listed in the school policy book as a weapon
That makes her knife a weapon
Trying to change that fact with semantic arguments does not make it less of a weapon

It's certainly arguable that policy should take precedence over good judgment and common sense, and I am persuaded by the arguments here that this instance is one in which it is in the public interest to do so. This 10-year-old child has flagrantly violated both school policy and Florida law. She must be punished severely and held up as an example for all other children in Florida.

As you say so clearly and accurately, because the school policy book makes any knife a weapon it is a weapon. I agree. Florida law makes it a felony for anyone to bring any weapon into a school. There is no exemption for 10-year-olds or even for 2-year-olds who smuggle a toy knife in their diapers. The 10-year-old girl therefore should be arrested, charged, and tried as a felon. The jury in this case should be instructed in a way that leads to her conviction. The crime she committed is a Third Degree Felony under Florida law, with a sentence of up to 10 years in prison. Because she and her parents must have known the school policy, her offense was willful and she should be required to serve the full term of that sentence. Of course she will have lost her right to vote and to own or possess firearms for the rest of her life, and she will find it difficult to obtain employment. It will be impossible for her to have a job that requires a bond as long as she lives.

There probably are additional charges that can--and should--be brought against her. The persecutor should consider if it is possible to charge her additionally with at least one count of possessing the weapon on a school bus and another count of possessing the weapon at a school bus stop. Those too are felonies of the third degree, which would allow sentencing her to 10 additional years for each of those counts. The 10-year-old girl should be kept in prison for the full 30 years. If so, she should not be freed until she is forty years old. (A 2-year-old caught with a toy knife in his diaper could possibly be imprisoned until he is 32-years-old, which is as it should be.)

Serves her right. She violated school policy and Florida law. If she can't do the time she shouldn't have done the crime. Her trial and sentencing should serve as a deterrent to any other 10-year-old who brings a knife into a school for the purpose of cutting food. They should not have food in school that requires cutting, and if they bring such food into the school they should learn to bite it to pieces like every other little animal. These are schools, after all, where we educate our young in the ways we wish them to follow.

790.115 Possessing or discharging weapons or firearms at a school-sponsored event or on school property prohibited; penalties; exceptions.--

(1) A person who exhibits any sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, destructive device, or other weapon, including a razor blade, box cutter, or knife, except as authorized in support of school-sanctioned activities, in the presence of one or more persons in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner and not in lawful self-defense, at a school-sponsored event or on the grounds or facilities of any school, school bus, or school bus stop, or within 1,000 feet of the real property that comprises a public or private elementary school, middle school, or secondary school, during school hours or during the time of a sanctioned school activity, commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. This subsection does not apply to the exhibition of a firearm or weapon on private real property within 1,000 feet of a school by the owner of such property or by a person whose presence on such property has been authorized, licensed, or invited by the owner.

(2)(a) A person shall not possess any firearm, electric weapon or device, destructive device, or other weapon, including a razor blade, box cutter, or knife, except as authorized in support of school-sanctioned activities, at a school-sponsored event or on the property of any school, school bus, or school bus stop; however, a person may carry a firearm:

1. In a case to a firearms program, class or function which has been approved in advance by the principal or chief administrative officer of the school as a program or class to which firearms could be carried;

2. In a case to a vocational school having a firearms training range; or

3. In a vehicle pursuant to s. 790.25(5); except that school districts may adopt written and published policies that waive the exception in this subparagraph for purposes of student and campus parking privileges.

For the purposes of this section, "school" means any preschool, elementary school, middle school, junior high school, secondary school, vocational school, or postsecondary school, whether public or nonpublic.

(b) A person who willfully and knowingly possesses any electric weapon or device, destructive device, or other weapon, including a razor blade, box cutter, or knife, except as authorized in support of school-sanctioned activities, in violation of this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

 

[Old Fuff]

You is a hard man, Robert... Hard...

 

[Geno]

Robert:

To the point: the child did not violate the ZT criteria. Ergo, the handbook which links to the law mandated by the ZT, has not been properly applied. It is as foolish to charge the child with attempted murder, as to charge her with a ZT violation. Both are equally lacking of legitimate connection from cause to effect.

You may continue to post the laws, the connection to which does not exist...the 3 criteria. It will not change the fact that the child did not actuate all 3 criteria to ZT.

Present for me, the activation via the handbook of the 3 criteria. If you can show me the 3 criteria violated, then and only then will you have a legitimate violation of ZT. I have requested it too many times...don't post me any more laws...post for me the 3 criteria and the violations.

Fact is you can not; the school can not. The police can not. Why? They do not exist.

Doc2005

 

[Robert Hairless]

Old Fuff:

You is a hard man, Robert... Hard...

Nah, like Joab and others here I think it's good to enforce every law, and the more laws the better.

Society punishes people for child abuse, presumably so that society can reserve for its self the right to abuse children.

Remember: It takes a village to destroy a child.

Doc2005:

Sigh. As usual you bog down in petty details such as whether the 10-year-old actually did violate the policy and the law. Stop being such a stick in the mud. Help destroy her life. There are many other lives that can be destroyed too. So many children, so little time.

*****​

Even to call this exercise in viscious stupidity a "case" is to dignify it beyond all reason. As I said earlier in messages here, this generation seems to have lost its way. Idiocy of the kind that is the core of this discussion can be juggled semantically but in the end it is nothing more than idiocy.

 

[Geno]

Robert!!! You reeeeeeeally had me going there!!!!!

Doc2005

 

[jmr40]

I've taught for 28 years and do not know a single teacher that agrees with the zero tolerance law as written. If I understand the facts in this case the girl sat down in the cafeteria and started eating with the knife. Every kid in the school knew she had a knife at school and the school had to do something. If not, every gangster in the system would start carrying steak knives and claim they were for lunch.

If the knife were discovered before the girl got to the cafeteria things would have played out differently in my school. But under the circumstances the schools hands were tied.

Whether or not she is prosecuted will be up to law enforcement. At this time it is out of the schools hands. Based on my experiences, I seriously doubt that she will be prosecuted. From the reports I have read it sounds like she will get 10 days suspension. Probably the minimum for this type of infraction based on school board policy.

 

[Geno]

Just on Fox News...the School Board is "...reviewing its ZT policy..." Well, freakin' lahdidah! It's a little too late to be proactive board members!!! The local community needs to ban together and repeal the board.

Stupid is as stupid does!

Doc2005

 

[joab]

Nah, like Joab and others here I think it's good to enforce every law, and the more laws the better.

But I see you see no need to practice reading comprehension or is it just another of your "tell a lie enough and it becomes truth" campaigns
My thoughts on this situation are fully explained in my first post here, but as usual you are too busy being cute to actually bother to read it

The girl knew or should have known of the rule against knives in school
I wont put the responsibility of knowing the state law on her, but it certainly torpedoes Docs three step theory

As has been adequately shown
Knives are against school policy and Florida law

Therefore this poor little girl is not sitting at home wondering what she did wrong
if she is then maybe special-ed should be in her future
she's sitting at home trying to figure out how to get out of the trouble she brought to herself

 

[Geno]

Let me make a clear point: I have zero problems with zero tolerance where properly applied.

Let me give a good ZT example:

1) Student A brings a knife (a genuine weapon)
2) Student A knowlingly (intentionally) brought the knife (a genuine weapon)
3) Student A was intent on causing great harm or murder

In that case, offer the punk up on a platter!!

Contrasting, bad ZT example (real case):

1) Student B brought a box cutter (a genuine weapon)
2) Student B did NOT knowlingly (intentionally) bring the box cutter (a genuine weapon). When she discovered her work-required box cutter, she gave it to the school officials.
3) Student B was NOT intent on causing great harm or murder

In that case, the student should have suffered no ZT reprisal. She was expelled. She was in line to be the school Val or Sal. She had never had a discipline issue. At 11th grade, she was history.

Doc2005

 

[joab]

And the real case we are discussing here deals with a student who knowingly brought a knife to school in violation of school policy and state law

AS I HAVE SAID RICHARD
I don't agree with the policy or the enforcement, but the girl is not totally innocent here either, now is she

 

[Old Fuff]

Excellent examples!!

Zero Tolerance makes no distinction between the two. A rule is a rule, regardless of circumstances. Rules (or laws) must be enforced, and if a young person’s future is destroyed so be it. Individuals are of no importance. Intent and motives are meaningless. Fairness doesn’t matter. Only the rule matters.

This concept runs counter to just about everything this country has ever stood for. The founding fathers would…

 

[Geno]

Old Fuff:

You are correct. Furthermore, when ZT was ordered, it was NOT intended to be applied this way.

I worked as an administrator with ZT for years...I never had to put a child out for ZT.

Specifically, the girl in this case, FL 10-year-old, violated the school no weapons policy but no the ZT. I present as evidence the school board has finally extracted the craniums from the posteriors and are "reactively" assessing their district's ZT policy.

A little too late.

Doc2005

 

[Deanimator]

Individuals are of no importance. Intent and motives are meaningless. Fairness doesn’t matter. Only the rule matters.

Yeah, but it gives passive aggressive cowards a victim who can't really fight back and who probably won't actually come after them with a real weapon.

 

[Owens]

Just because, I went back and re-read through this thread. Noticed (again?) that this is a prime case that ZT should not apply.

1. Item must constitute a weapon By the schools definition, it did.
2. Student must have knowingly brought the weapon yep.. again based on the schools definition of 'weapon' (Personally, I don't see anything as a weapon until it is used as such.)
3. Student must have intent to cause great harm, damage, death, etc. this is where ZT goes out the window. Was brought several times in the past. Her lack of aggression on the other instances, proves there was no intent. That is also where GOOD SENSE was supposed to kick in, and there in lies the REAl problem

 

[Geno]

Owens wins!!!!!!!!! Praise the Lord!!!!!!!!!!!

Geno passes Owens a virtual cigar!!!!!!!!!!!!

<<Geno does hand-springs>>​

 

[joab]

So if she had brought a gun just to show her BFFs then there would have been no violation of ZT?

 

[Buttermilk]

I agree with much of what has been said. The 11/22/63 reference and several of the guys posts have really heartened me.
It's the Dr. Spock mindset also. This scourge was put upon our nation and has ruined people and progressively gotten worse. It has caused the demise of the human animal and the proliferation of political correctness and the over-achievers in sensitivity training and "feel good" philosophies have removed all semblance of common sense and good judgement.
When we have CPS employees who drive down streets and call for back-up on the police radio to remove children from 3 families because the kids were gathered in a front yard playing and were drinking from a water hose, this is really out of line AS IS THIS KNIFE CASE!!
Robert, Doc and Fuff-YA DONE GOOD!!!!!!

 

[Geno]

joab:

Glad you asked (this is a real case I dealt with this one...this is a real-life example as executed under ZT by yours truly):

1) Student drives Dad's car to school. Dad did NOT remove his 870 after pheasant hunting. (A genuine weapon)
2) Student did not know the shotgun was in the trunk.
3) Student had no intent to harm or kill.

Dad came to get the shotgun and had no idea the kid had driven the car. By golly...thank goodness I had good relationships with the parents and the kids.

No ZT foul.

Doc2005

 

[Owens]

Doc2005,

Thanks Geno! <<Lights up>>

 

[joab]

Doc2005
That case does not even come close to this one

As you say the student did not even know the gun was in a car that was not even his

I asked a specific question that parallels the case we are talking about

What if she had KNOWINGLY brought a gun to school but had no intentions of hurting anyone

Just to show her friends or was going to go shooting after school and wouldn't be able to go home first, or simply felt that the rules did not apply to her and she wanted to carry a gun to school for what ever reason

Has she violated ZT ?
Simple question really

 

[Geno]

It would not meet the ZT 3 criteria, per lacking #3, but it would be:

1) a Federal Firearms violation as well as
2) a violation of a minor in possession of a pistol

That's a whole different case, but TZ violation? No. It would be far more serious a violation. In that case prosecution should go forward.

Doc2005

 

[joab]

So how is it different to be in possession of a knife on school grounds which is against Florida sate law

Isn't the main point of contention here the arrest of the child by the state?

 

[Geno]

I already covered exactly that matter last evening in a post...there is a disconnect between the ZT initiating the prosecution. I suspect that if / when you contact a Fl legislator and ask as to the spirit and intent of the law, they will say this would be an abuse of the law.