Florida: Student arrested for cutting food with knife

[Robert Hairless]

You do make a point, this will continue until so many people feel angry enough that they take action.

True, and that's why my posts on this and related subjects are so passionate. It hurts to see children ruined: no 10-year-old girl should be sacrificed to make a point that rules are rules.

I don't share Joab's resolution that "Th schools are only ruining the ruinable children those with heart will remember these incidents and work towards change in the future". All children are ruinable. I'm not a soft person, I'm not sentimental and don't sentimentalize kids, and my own children have been adults for many years, but there is nothing in my heart or mind that allows me to see any child as expendable. Schools for me are not boot camps or prisons in which only the fit should survive and dedicate themselves to fix the institution that hurt them or change it. And I don't think it's reasonable to expect young children to fix problems created by adults who don't know what they're doing. It's especially unreasonable to expect success in that line from children who have passed through the meat grinder of American schools. What we force into the grinder is better than what comes out. No one is really happy with what comes out the other end or with the schools that produce it.

Unlike many others here, I suspect, I am a firm believer in public schools. Just not in the kind that destroys kids for the sake of some bizarre social scheme that has no chance of success at accomplishing anything except destroy kids.

Perhaps the nature of my arguments would be different if American schools could show that the children who pass through them are at least well educated. I still would argue that the transmission of knowledge and skills can be achieved without repression, and achieved with much better results when kids are not twisted into being frightened by the world around them, but these schools are dismal failures by any measure.

I've lived through generations in which educational theorists have imposed various philosophies, strategies, techniques, and approaches on American educational practices. Today's panacea always becomes tomorrow's problem that requires immediate remedy because it has failed. There is nothing new. It's the inherent rhythm of American education and has been for decades. Superimposed on it is a web of law that becomes increasingly complex and counterproductive. It doesn't work, hasn't worked, can't work, and so we do more of it, which makes no sense at all.

Schools don't even accomplish the purported goal of these Zero Tolerance policies: to help keep the kids physically safe. Perhaps they do achieve the creation of Zero Tolerance people, but is that the result we should want?

It's the parents and other adults who must fix the problems. That's why they are adults and not children.

 

[Geno]

Owens:

I was JUST in San Antonio...mid-Nov! Awesome city!!!

Doc2005

 

[joab]

Joab, it's twisted to think that having irrational rules is the best way for children to learn and desire to take action to change them.

yes it would be twisted to think that irrational rules is the best way for children to learn and desire to take action to change them.
Who do you know that feels that way?
Certainly not me and I challenge you to show me where I have said that I do

The rules are in place now and are enforced with zero latitude now
Pining away about what would be the best case scenario may be a good topic for what if-ing but has little value in real life unless you have people in place that will actually work for change.

I laugh when writing this because we're talking about a butter knife,

Don't laugh too hard because it was a steak knife

According to authorities, school employees spotted the girl cutting her food while she was eating lunch and took the steak knife from her.

 

[scurtis_34471]

This one has me especially pissed because it happened in my home town. The principal and the school board will definitely hear from me on this one. I pay taxes that support these bozos. I'm so glad my kids aren't in public schools.

 

[AZRickD]

Anything you sign or agree to is binding, if you don't like the conditions don't sign

Legally binding on a 9-year old? Really? Does a school have something like Major League Baseball's anti-trust exemption on age of consent?

I spent 15 of the best years of my life in elementary school (four of them of them in second and fifth grade) and I've never read a school handbook.

 

[Old Fuff]

scurtis_34471:

Good, and while you’re at it, print out a copy of this thread and give it to them. Tell them that thanks to the Internet your town has become a national disgrace, and both the school system and police department are being held up as horrible examples of the worst kind.

They will probably give you the old routine about being not being able to say anything because of “privacy issues.” In that case tell them that they don’t have to say anything, because actions say much more then words.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Joab:

I laugh when writing this because we're talking about a butter knife,

Don't laugh too hard because it was a steak knife

According to authorities, school employees spotted the girl cutting her food while she was eating lunch and took the steak knife from her.

Joab, doesn't it make you sick "when people won't read an entire thread before jumping in or at least the posts of the poster they are commenting on before they comment"?

But it's good for a laugh when someone who constantly picks at other people and claims to be a close reader and superior moral absolutist simultaneously trips over his tongue and puts his foot in his mouth. This is such a remarkable feat of acrobatics that we need to assure other readers we hadn't prearranged it just to demonstrate your agility. Folks, this is not a trick. You are seeing it live, on our stage, as it is happening for real.

If you had read all of my message before jumping in to exercise your wit on it you would have, should have, could have seen that it was in response to a message posted by Rusty Shackleford in which he said:

I don't think Doc understands my point, I'm not saying I would bring this young girl up on any formal charges under the conditions but in fairness, students should be well aware of WHY they are not allowed to bring small knives, butter knives, steak knives, Ginzu knives, etc. It's a safety/security issue.

I even quoted his statement at the beginning of my message. That's the way discussions go: someone posts a message and someone else responds, as in a very large freeform discussion.

So, yes, the little girl used a steak knife to cut her food and you're mad with anticipation at the thought of ruining her life because of it, but we--Rusty Shackleford having said his piece, that is, and I responding to it--were talking about Rusty's butter knife as I responded to what he posted. Not you but Rusty. I know what you think: hang the kid because she broke a rule, and hang everyone who would prefer to find ways not to hang little kids. Rusty, though I don't at all agree with him, says things worth considering.

Now be a nice absolutist and go find someone else to play with. Shoo.

 

[joab]

yes, the little girl used a steak knife to cut her food and you're mad with anticipation at the thought of ruining her life because of it

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black
Nowhere have I expressed any mad desire to ruin the girls life
My first post even stated the opposite
I challenge you to show me where I have


Now lets examine the second part of your post
You will notice that your extremely ignorable blathering of butter knives and bovine separation tools
Addresses a comment made by Rusty not JCT
You will further notice that JCT has not given any indication that he is speaking to anyone but me or that he has even read your post

Joab, it's twisted to think that having irrational rules is the best way for children to learn and desire to take action to change them. I'm sure 10 year olds have enough on their plate without having to worry about changing ridiculous rules set in place by narrow minded authorities.
We had a handbook in our school too. It works good on paper. But is never practical to generalize and treat everyone as potential criminals.
Students study history so they can learn from past mistakes and not make them again. Hopefully they learn about the past laws that caused and continue to cause chaos and war. They learn about equal rights and freedom and ethics. About the defeatist people against individual creative thought and development.
I laugh when writing this because we're talking about a butter knife, but the issue is much bigger. It makes me think about the lady who was awarded $1,000,000 in a law suit for getting a hot coffee from Macdonalds. There's a problem in the system to say the least. Maybe we need more laws and everything will function smoothly?? I don't think so. We already have laws to protect us from other laws. The legal system here is a mess with no end.

Now show me where he shows that he is addressing you or your post
Show me where he gives any indication that he has shifted focus from me to you or anyone but the coffee lady
Show me where he addresses you or your comment at all
Or are you claiming a copyright on the word "Butter Knife"

Rusty Shackleford having said his piece, that is, and I responding to it--were talking about Rusty's butter knife as I responded to what he posted. Not you but Rusty.

And I was responding to JCT
You see that's how it goes in a large free form discussion

 

[AZRickD]

Joab,

While you've busied yourself with debating in this small cave called THR, I'd wager hundreds of people have emailed this school and, hmmm, possibly the school that their child attends.

This is the Activism forum. Have you activated?

Rick

 

[joab]

I see you can not defeat my argument so you try to shift it, nice

In this case no I have not "activated"
The girl was wrong and I have no dog in that particular fight
I have done my part to the point of almost being arrested myself in past ZT issues that pertained to my children
Have you done more than just fire of an e-mail that they can add to their delete file after replying with a canned statement and hitting reply all, if they even do that much
You're so radical



And the silence from Richard is deafening

I think the words he should be groping for are
"Sorry Joab my bad",
"I stand corrected , or apologies to Joab for misreading"

But slinking away is good too

 

[Robert Hairless]

Joab:

And the silence from Richard is deafening

I think the words he should be groping for are
"Sorry Joab my bad",
"I stand corrected , or apologies to Joab for misreading"

But slinking away is good too

I don't think that there's anything more for Richard to say, Joab, or anything more that Richard need say.

When you so clearly demonstrate the central problem with you that Richard and others have explained, it is pointless for Richard or anyone else to waste more time in explanation.

 

[joab]

You are correct Richard (sorry your irrelevance has manifested itself in my total inability to even remember your name, but the long form of Dick just seemed to fit your personality )
Your previous post to me demonstrates your self righteous superiority attitude
Your last one demonstrates your total lack of integrity

I have no further use for someone such as yourself who would post such a blatant personal attack and then refuse to acknowledge when he is proven wrong

This demonstrates that you are indeed nothing but a totally irrelevant pseudo intellectual, semi literate, half witted cowardly jackass

All in all your history has shown you to be nothing but a slightly humorous long winded twisty boy who will twist and belittle a persons argument to fit your comedy routine

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Knock it off.

 

[Geno]

Wow, I'll second that thought. It seems the thread has out-lived its useful life.

Doc2005

 

[joab]

Wow It would have been nice if someone had jumped in during the attack

This thread was in decline when some thought it was a better tactic to twist comments than to address the argument

Since some who just want to argue without substance missed it

Granted the rule is stupid and the punishment is ludicrous
But these rules are not a secret known only to the upper classmen or the inner circles
They have been in place for a long time and ny student who violates them is either stupid or not paying attention

Something should be done about these zero tolerance policies but it is hard to feel a lot of sympathy for this individual student, unless she did it to draw attention and make a stand

Show me how this even resembles the twists that have been attributed to it

 

[Old Fuff]

The main problem with Zero Tolerance is that by its nature it imposes the same penalties and punishment on all students regardless of their age and maturity. Thus a first grade student (age 6 or 7) is judged the same way a high school senior (age 17 to 19) would be. Clearly the mind set and thinking of a 10 year-old is not likely to be the same as someone almost twice her age. I am sure the girl in question didn’t see her knife in a context of being a weapon, and there is no reason to think she had any intention of using it that way. But it makes no difference. There cannot be any mitigating circumstances. A rule was broken – and a law too! Punishment must fit the crime regardless! Zero Tolerance demands nothing less because all who violate are equal!!! Where are the handcuffs??? Take her away!!!

I think not. Young children should be judged by what is age appropriate, and forgiven for honest mistakes that do no harm. I would be much less generous with adults that seem to be much closer to age 10 when it comes to the way they think and act.

 

[AZRickD]

Joab had the unmitigated gall to post:

I see you can not defeat my argument so you try to shift it, nice

In this case no I have not "activated"
The girl was wrong and I have no dog in that particular fight

Joab, buddy. Do you have any idea in which forum you are posting?

It's called "Activism" for a reason.

Do you know in whose thread you are posting?

It's my thread.

Do you know what I asked people to do?

I asked them to contact the school.

Are you in violation of THR guidelines?

Yes:

This forum is dedicated to activism to promote the RKBA.

Please use this forum to coordinate and work together. This is the place to organize. Use this forum for campaigns, legal gatherings, letter writing, talking points to push on the media, and things of this nature.

This is not the place to come up with ideas, use L&P for that. This is not the place to debate ideas.

I say, Zero-Tolerance for you.

Moderators, please suspend Joab from the Activism forum for a period of two weeks.

After all, he should have known better (and he fulfilled all of Doc's "Three Points of ZT" (tm).

Rick
I've already forgiven him, but he must accept his punishment.

 

[tabsr]

School Staff

Remove all forks and knives in the school staff room, replace with dog bowls.

 

[langenc]

While she is in the "office" she can pick up a dozen condoms.

 

[JCT]

I didn't ask for this thread to be posted in activism, I'm not about to get involved with this case. Should I not offer my opinion, or join the discussion> Rick only used that as a cop out when things weren't going as he'd like.
I don't agree 100% with any one persons opinion, but everyone here has had valid and open minded points worth time and consideration. That's what this forum is for, to collectively find solutions and discuss social situations that may or may not require activism from the guests here.

 

[AZRickD]

Cop-out?

Try Rhetorical Tool.

And he *is* in violation.

You are incorrect about the purpose of this forum. Activism, not argumentation.

It is stated in the stickied thread. Try reading it.

Joab should be shunned with two weeks on the Ignore List.

Rick

 

[Geno]

Folks, we all need to adhere to the rules...attack ideas, not people. There is room for disagreement. Let's do so professionally.

Doc2005

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Okay, I've only read the last posts in this thread, but please.

Step back, take a breath, take a BIG breath, and try to keep the insults to yourselves.

Closed.