Focus on TARGET - NOT FRONT SIGHTS in Self Defense Situation Video

[il.bill]

Found this link in my E-mail from All Outdoors this morning. It talks about sight / target focus in a self defense situation. It is a little over six and a half minutes long and mostly covers basic fundamental sighting stuff (I never mind spending a little time re-hashing fundamentals if the presentation is well done and reasonably short) and about half way through it covers the topic of this Post's Title.

 

[jmorris]

Yeah I don’t use the front sight when shooting from “retention” and often arrays of real close targets.

You might be surprised how often and fast you can hit large poppers even out to 25 yards from the hip.

Takes practice though. If your not going to put the time in aiming is the next best option for hitting things, even greatly increases your odds if you are an accomplished shooter that practices all the time.

 

[FL-NC]

Really? Then why do we bother mounting those bothersome things on our guns? Especially the expensive ones with the tritium. Yes, there are scenarios when and where using the sights for that perfect sight picture isn't possible or practical, but not as a general practice.

 

[mcb]

If you have trained enough you won't be thinking about the gun or sights at all. Your focus will be on the situation and getting out of it and that includes determining if force is required to accomplish that extraction from the situation. Once you have made the decision that force is required to get you out of the situation the actual use of force should be second nature, requiring little or no conscious thought. Your sight picture, or lack there of, will be already determined by the particular situation and range at a subconscious level. Anything from point shooting, to just the slide, to just the front sight to a full sight picture will be selected at a subconscious level. Again assuming you have trained enough.

You train so you don't burden your mind with how to use your tool so that when in a real world situation trying to avoid yet determining IF you use your tool is going to require your full attention.

 

[George P]

As someone who shoots more shotgun than anything else, I always focus on the target; the sights are a mere blur in my peripheral. So, when I started shooting more handgun I tried sights first and found I shoot better when the target is clear and the sights are blurry. I also wear glasses for distance so that helps

 

[1KPerDay]

I shoot a more target focus sight picture. I wondered if I was defective and asked about it here.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?posts/10810263/

 

[George P]

Sounds like the pistoleros are starting to adopt the method us shotgunners have been doing since day one

 

[LiveLife]

Focus on TARGET - NOT FRONT SIGHTS ... talks about sight / target focus in a self defense situation.

When I was taught defensive shooting, my instructor (Who taught PD/SD SWAT teams) made us remove front sights from our Glocks to force us to focus on targets. He said for short defensive shooting distances, we must keep our eyes fully on target because in reality, targets move, fast.

Our pass/fail was point shooting fast 4"-6" groups anywhere on the target when called out to 5-7 yards.

This is what I share with people when doing defensive shooting training - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245

Rob Leatham talks about "why aiming is useless"



He shows solution to "sight fixation" where shooters are fixated on the front sight. At 1:25 minute mark of video, shooting at the target without using the front sight while EYES CLOSED is demonstrated.



Master the shooting drill I outlined above and you will KNOW your shots hit the intended part of the target without waiting to see the "holes".



Point shooting with focus on target can lead to "surgical point shooting"



And high speed point shooting at moving targets

 

[labnoti]

Fairbairn must have been the one who had more influence in people training not to use the gun sights than anyone else. I'm pretty sure it was a result of his doctrine via Rex Applegate that the FBI and subsequently most US police during the 20th century were trained not to use their sights.

It was Cooper who probably had the most influence on changing that, but his doctrine probably wasn't widespread among professional trainers until the 1990's.

Personally, I think Fairbairn was misinterpreted. He did emphasize the value of point-shooting, but also readily acknowledged the usefulness of sights, particularly at 10 yards and beyond. He didn't codify things like stance, grip, flash sight picture and compressed surprise break the way Cooper did. He was more practical because his experience was in combat and not competition shooting, and his experience didn't provide for things like a Weaver stance to be prescribed.

If you take a look at this 1956 FBI training film, it's pretty evident they were very dogmatic about not using the sights:



I don't think that Fairbairn was that dogmatic (and he was also a strong proponent of the automatic as opposed to the revolver), but for whatever reason or because of whoever's influence, the disuse of the sights in handgun combat training prevailed for most of the 20th century.

Here's Cooper defending his teaching to use them:



I think he uses a poor straw-man argument for point-shooting technique in his argument to use the sights. He claims that the basis of point-shooting's popularity is the notion that because people report not using their sights in shootings, those statistics are used to justify the assumed fact that you won't use your sights in combat and therefore you shouldn't use them in training. People may have really thought that way, but there are much better arguments for why point shooting should be learned and used. The fact is, both skills are essential to a competently armed person.

 

[Chuck R.]

IMHO Leatham's "Why Aiming is Useless" video is often misrepresented, the takeaway I got was "Aiming is useless, until you've mastered the trigger pull without moving the gun". Guys sometime use it to advocate for pint shooting.

I've taken a couple "Fight Focused" classes (One was a Pincus class) along with the typical "front sight" press classes. Both have their place. When it comes to which technique to use, of the best instructors I've had that explained was Jabo Long a Memphis, TN SWAT instructor. He called it simply:

"See what you need to see, to make the shot you need to make"

Pincus also broke it down similarly, by stating that the technique used was determined by; distance, target size and time.

I use both techniques, but based on the above criteria. One issue I find with the "classic" style point shooting, the hip 1/4 hip etc, where the gun isn't somewhere between the eyes and target, is that the average defensive shooter doesn't dedicate enough time/ammo to be come proficient at it at anything other than retention+ distances. Then for the rest of point shooting you can get into the whole extremely lengthy discussion of is "indexing off a slide " really point shooting, since you are using a part of the gun to "aim'.

 

[labnoti]

For sure, the guys standing on a firing line or shooting at steel are going to come up with all kinds of theory. Show me what it looks like in FoF.

 

[LiveLife]

... there are much better arguments for why point shooting should be learned and used. The fact is, both skills are essential to a competently armed person.

Yes, like low light condition where visualization of sights is not viable. (And proponents of night sights, keep reading below)

We should consider unsighted point shooting as "plan B/contingency" shooting option to sighted shooting as plan A in real life don't always come through. I like having options in life, especially contingency options.

I read somewhere, “No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy." In real life optics fail, batteries die, red dot/laser mounts get bumped, flashlights can be dropped, etc. and I have even seen front sights fly off pistol slides in matches (Personally, I lost a front sight while shooting under barricade when slide recoiled up and hit the bottom of barricade). Well, what do you do next? If you have point shooting as back up shooting option, you can exercise that option. Something for us to chew on.

For sure, the guys standing on a firing line or shooting at steel are going to come up with all kinds of theory. Show me what it looks like in FoF.

+1. Absolutely.

This thread will generate never ending sighted vs unsighted shooting comparison and discussion. But keep in mind the OP clearly specified shooting in "self defense situation" which I take it as shooting at closer defensive shooting distances of 5-7 yards.

sight / target focus in a self defense situation.

While I am a proponent of point shooting at close range, when the shooting range increases beyond 7 yards, I will emphasize transition to sighted shooting but with focus on target while "looking past the front sight"

I think Fairbairn ... did emphasize the value of point-shooting, but also readily acknowledged the usefulness of sights, particularly at 10 yards and beyond.

Leatham's "Why Aiming is Useless" video is often misrepresented, the takeaway I got was "Aiming is useless, until you've mastered the trigger pull without moving the gun". Guys sometime use it to advocate for [point] shooting.

You are correct in your takeaway. The point shooting drill I outlined (In this thread) is essentially fulfilling Rob Leatham's mantra of "Jerking the trigger without moving the pistol" but providing a shooter another shooting option (unsighted with focus on target) when sighted shooting option is not feasible.

Yes, there are times in "self defense situation" where visualization of sights is not possible or practical and we must be trained to handle this situation proficiently. In low or no light situation, visualization of sights is not possible but if you have identified a definite threat approaching your way, you need to be able to hit the threat. This is where point shooting option is applicable. Inside my house, I can proficiently hit (fast and accurate) any human sized target with low/no light as that's what I practice regularly.

During my defensive shooting training (by instructor/USPSA RSO who taught PD/SD SWAT teams), instructor had us remove front sights of our Glocks, dimmed the range lights so we could barely see the outline of cardboard targets and tossed in smoke grenades among USPSA-like stage setup so even visualizing night sights was difficult (We have done night shooting with night sights and I am a student of keeping my eyes on target and movement vs focused on night sights). This drill emphasized the importance of point shooting option and with deliberate practice, we proficiently engaged the targets and hit center of mass.

The instructor emphasized that we must train to shoot proficiently when we are woken up in the middle of the night with low visibility and turning on the flashlight may simply give the threat a point of aim. Being able to point shoot in low/no light situation may give me the advantage. Sure, illuminating the threat with blinding light is another option but I may not always have a source of bright light handy.

As to Rob Leatham's "Aiming is Useless", another thing I do in addition to point shooting is shooting with eyes closed (Yes, eyes closed). When I am teaching defensive shooting, especially with someone who never shot before, after going over the basics of stance/grip/trigger control, I have them point the pistol at center of target at 5 yards and shoot with eyes closed. This provides the shooter with "natural point of aim" and I have them practice until eyes closed point of aim is synchronized with point of impact. Once they accomplish this, I tell them now they can hit anywhere on the target at will, even with eyes closed and put them through various shooting drills at multiple targets, with eyes closed.

Rob demonstrates this at 1:25 minute mark of this video as a solution to sight fixation where shooting is done with EYES CLOSED.

 

[murf]

This provides the shooter with "natural point of aim" and I have them practice until eyes closed point of aim is synchronized with point of impact.

by changing their grip, I take it?

murf

 

[LiveLife]

after going over the basics of stance/grip/trigger control, I have them ... shoot with eyes closed. This provides the shooter with "natural point of aim" and I have them practice until eyes closed point of aim is synchronized with point of impact.

by changing their grip, I take it?

No, grip remains the same once gun is drawn. Only changes made are at shoulders for up/down movement and at the waist for right/left movement - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902245

Make the necessary adjustment at the shoulders (vertical adjustment) and waist (horizontal adjustment)

I have them initially start with support hand at the waist and once pistol is drawn, grip is formed at bellybutton with arms resting on the belly to form a stable triangle.

I have them practice shooting from this position/grip (eyes closed/eyes open) while reinforcing the concept of head locking with the pistol once the pistol is drawn and grip formed. This way, wherever you look, the muzzle is pointed the same and when a threat is identified, simply pulling/pressing the trigger results in fast and COM shots.

Next, I have them practice shooting with partial extension/full extension using the same concept of head locking with pistol once drawn and grip formed. Shots are initially fired with eyes closed to form natural point of aim and point of impact is synchronized by making adjustments at shoulders/waist.

Once POA/POI synchronization is done with eyes closed, they practice shooting with eyes open but with faster follow up shots at multiple targets. I have them practice with 4"-6" groups as goal but often 3" groups are achieved with practice at 5 yards and I have them incrementally increase distance to 6 and 7 yards.

During this time, focus is made on the target, not on the sights. BUT keep in mind that I start them with basic stance/grip/trigger control and have them practice/dry fire until they can release the hammer/striker without moving the front sight. A new shooter coworker bought a Glock and I had him practice dry firing while watching the front sight. When we went shooting, he said he dry fired like almost 1000 times (I thought dry firing my new M&P Shield 9mm like 500 times was excessive).

The "Jerking the trigger without moving the pistol/dry firing without moving the front sight" must have worked as his started to produce nice tight 2"-3" groups at 5 yards after initial POA/POI synchronization with eyes closed using partial/full extension on two dots on cardboard point shooting.

 

[murf]

gotcha. so they always use their natural grip and adjust poa to poi with shoulder and stance adjustments.

thx,

murf

 

[LiveLife]

gotcha. so they always use their natural grip and adjust poa to poi with shoulder and stance adjustments.

Yes. I tell them once grip is formed, imagine hands/arms in a cast so no movement can be made (with head locked with the pistol) and only adjustment they can make is at the shoulders and the waist.

I have them practice this at home while watching TV. So whenever new character enters the screen, I have them draw and point. And whenever program goes to commercial, change magazines (If watching movies, use different trigger like a character turning). Also, dry firing while watch the front sight practice is done daily as much as possible.

And at each range session, I have them quickly re-establish natural point of aim by drawing and pointing with eyes closed and synchronizing POI with POA. Once synchronized, they resume their shooting drills: Two dots on target with fast single shots each. Move dots closer until they are on top of each other (Double tap/shooting twice on same dot), Double tap on multiple targets anywhere on target at will. Repeat shooting drill with eyes closed.

For distances greater than 5-7 yards, I have them look past the front sight and use front sight flash but with focus primarily made on target. But for "defensive shooting" practice, I emphasize speed and accuracy at multiple targets as primary goal.

 

[LiveLife]

I shoot a more target focus sight picture. I wondered if I was defective and asked about it here. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?posts/10810263/

There is definite difference between defensive shooting vs match shooting. In defensive shooting, threat/target can move very quickly. In match shooting, often targets are stationary and don't move. When our USPSA match stage designer incorporated pneumatic actuated swinging/bobbing/turning targets, even seasoned match shooters missed and cussed out loudly. This absolutely changed our approach to shooting. I particularly had difficulty with bobbing targets that moved up and down behind a small opening as I had to incorporate "timing" to my shooting. Then our stage designer moved to "one hand only shooting" stages with mandatory mag changes/slide cycling with more and more incorporated use of cover and unusual shooting positions like prone/kneeling/leaning with mandatory weak hand shooting. Good times.

But this thread is about "defensive shooting" where my focus is reality of down and dirty faster draw and shots hitting threat while keeping both eyes wide open on threat movement.

I do another drill where shooter has back against the targets and before shooter turns around, targets are moved around and a color is called out among multiple colored targets. The shooter has to turn around and identify the color of target then draw/hit the target. This is timed shooting drill and often "Bang, you are dead" is yelled out before shooter can engage the target. Hard reality but we must train to respond to reality. On this shooting drill, target focus trumps sight focus as shooter must scan/identify the right color of target while the body moves into shooting position and when the right color is identified, trigger is pulled immediately.

I tell them this is why we must train to shoot from draw, partial extension to full extension and point shooting is an essential shooting option to have in our toolbox of skills.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Where is Deaf Smith when we need him?

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Out to ten yards, sights are not needed. Past that, the front sight becomes important.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I practice point shooting out to around 7yrds. Beyond that I'm at least using the front sight.

If you are carrying and want to be proficient in SD situations it would behoove you to practice point shooting at closer distances.

To clarify, point shooting for me is just getting the gun up to around chest level and shooting at what you're looking at. Not head level and using the slide or whatever, at that point you might as well use the sights. Also, not trying to portray "wild west" images but shooting from the hip or retention is also worthwhile practice at very close range, 3-5yds or less. With a good grip this is actually pretty easy.


Point being, as has already been mentioned, target shooting paper is not worthwhile SD practice.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I will be teaching two point shooting classes for IALEFI next month at the Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Academy in Florida

 

[Golf-21-Bravo]

I think we’re all on the same page one way or the other.

It’s not a false dichotomy. Become proficient with both as often the situataion will dictate which one you’ll need.

 

[Jack Ryan]

"Some people don't, they miss a lot."

Yep.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

"Some people don't, they miss a lot."

Yep.

Why is that?

 

[bearcreek]

"Some people don't, they miss a lot."

Yep.

They miss a lot if they're too far away or haven't trained for it. I assume you didn't watch the video in the OP? The OP's title was somewhat misleading, or at least it was to me. The person in the video was talking specifically about very close range shooting, not just all shooting in general. No one should be using their sights at a distance of 2 inches from the target, for example. As I've mentioned in other threads, this is one of the problems with the "4 rules" as commonly taught. "Keep you finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target" can be misleading because it could lead one to believe that "sights are on the target" means they must actually see their sights on the target. At hugging distance, that's a very bad idea.