Folded vs. not folded

[LooseGrouper]

I've always been a fan of japanese swords and I'm sort of looking around for a "real" sword. I'm into the utilitarian aspect and don't want a show piece, but a cutting weapon.

What are the real benefits of a folded blade? Better cutting? Edge retention? Shock resistance? I checked out the free Cold Steel video and their swords (non-folded of course) look well made and durable, but I have no real frame reference for judging sword performance.

Any general advice? I'm not looking to start a revolver vs. auto style food fight. I'm just looking for a quick primer on the generally accepted wisdom.

 

[SeanSw]

There is no benefit to a folded steel sword.

In past eras steel was folded to help remove impurities in steel. The technique was widely used across the world and was never singular to the Japanese, who were not the first to utilize such a method.

With modern homgenous steels the act of folding is more likely to re-introduce impurities than to do any good. Adding slag pits, air pockets, poor forge welds, or possibly overheating the steel. Folding simply isn't necessary, and when you start with good steel, there's no reason to use it any other way. Proper heat treatment and blade design will give you all that you need.

There are other types of folded steel (pattern welding, damascus, etc.) but the effect is mostly aesthetic nowadays. These methods of folding were meant to combine the properties of different metals into a combination of the two which was better suited to its design. When made properly there will not be any performance difference whatsoever between a folded steel blade and a homogenous blade. Again, heat treatment and steel selection are the key.

Cold Steel makes fine "user" swords. They are not historically accurate in material or construction, but they are full functional weapons.

I am new to firearms but have spent years studying swords and swordsmanship and have handled many of the products on the retail market, as well as swords not commonly available. Cold Steel gives you a lot of bang for your buck. I am also into the utilitarian aspect of swords but prefer European styles to Japanese. I have a folded steel Paul Chen katana, which looks nice, but is little more than an attractive crowbar in function. If you want to get down to business Cold Steel is a good way to go.

My favorite "all business" European swords are made by Angus Trim. I have owned 4 (2 currently) and have only the greatest things to say about their performance. Last I checked, he was also making a katana.... so you may want to look him up!

Try Swordforum.com if you have a lot more questions needing answered.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Sean covered it well. Folding was important because of low-quality steel, not magic.

You might try www.kriscutlery.com as well.

 

[SeanSw]

I didn't think to include Kris Cutlery! I have a half-completed KC katana blade in the basement right now. That blade is darn tough on my tools. I wouldn't hesitate to use the finished product at all.

If LooseGrouper doesn't mind the ahistorical design and non-traditional approach, I would also reccomend Himalayan Imports. Their katana is only "katana-ish" but their new Tibetan short (and long) swords look really sweet. For the money, I don't think there are ANY more durable, better supported products on the market. That's a lot of blade for the money.

 

[hso]

You don't need folded and you don't want Cold Steel. The Cas Iberia folks (paul chen) make a better using sword and will be developing katana designed for the various cutting sports.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Thanks for the great info folks. It is actually a relief to hear that I don't need folded, since that seems to send the price way up.

I checked out the Kris swords and like the Shingen alot, even though I could care less if the hamon (temper line, right?) is visible or not. It seems that the "standard" katana blade length is 29".

hso, could you elaborate on why I wouldn't want Cold Steel?

 

[Soap]

I have a CAS Hanwei Practical Katana Plus. It is an awesome sword for the money. It isn't folded 80,000,000,000,000,000,000 times so I can't slay ninjas with it, at least that's what I hear on the internet. But it does make a good tameshigiri beater.

 

[Jamie C.]

Anybody that wants a sword that'll actually stand up to being used should take a look at Gus Trim's work, here: Angus Trim Swords


Also, he can be found here , if you want to speak to him, or ask questions.
( There's a lot of very knowledgable people there, some of which actually make swords the "old fashioned way".)


J.C.

 

[ecos]

one benefit to having a visible hamon is you can tell if it was done properly. sometimes people mess up during the heat treat and the soft spine will run all the way to the edge...which means your sword wont hold an edge, or the hardened section will run nearly to the spine creating a more brittle blade.

if you ever want to bring out a hamon line its a pretty easy process....buy some ferric chloride from radio shack (sold as circuit board etch) or use vinegar, sulfuric acid, etc. dip or rub it on your blade..the steel will turn black. then either take very fine sanding paper or polishing paste (i use paste) and rub it down. keep in mind its almost an art bringing out the hamon in different ways...but you can get a decent one just like that. this will only work on blades with a differential heat treating of course.

 

[Valkman]

Like this, ecos?

I use the etching solution from Radio Shack mixed with 3 parts water - I have it in a pickle jar and just put the heat treated knife in it. Then I use WD-40 and steel wool on it.

 

[LooseGrouper]

Man, this board is a great resource.

I checked out the Angus Trim swords, but his katanas are out of my price range.

I think I have narrowed my choices down to the KC Shingen and the CAS Practical Plus. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm leaning toward the KC because it seems to be a slightly more utilitarian design. On the other hand, I am tempted by the extra leverage of the Practical plus' 12 1/4" handle. Comments?

LG

 

[hso]

Go to swordforums.com and read what they have to say about the performance of each.

My personal experience is limited to the Kris Cutlery standard katana and the Cas/Chen practicals cutting 2 liter water filled soft drink bottles. Properly done, the standard kat and the practical and prac + sailed right through the bottles.

http://www.kriscutlery.com/japanese/standard/index_26kat.html

 

[Omni04]

folding swords are great for serious CCWing. The ability to whip out a weapon, flick your wrist, and have a 3 foot long blade is an unbelievable asset to have in a life or death situation.

wait a sec... what are you all talking about?


(hmmm a switchblade sword... that WOULD be interesting!)

 

[ClarkEMyers]

If you're a fan get folded to make you happy

If you want a Japanese style blade get one just the same, no point in settling for something that won't make you as happy.

My only real sword blade is forged 1095 with differential heat treat by the smith - not a big name maker but there are lots of folks around the SCA and others as well who can and will make a real using blade.

The only advantages I can personally vouch for with current damascus blades is for working pocket knives where the differential hardness will give a sawblade effect for cutting cardboard boxes. There may be other differences.

My working knives are so far as I can afford them Morseth by A.G. Russell but that's a whole different thing. Mr. Russell once remarked to me that the laminated steel had to be either a cheap knife with little regard for the division or a handmade blade to get symmetrical lines - I suspect the folded steel blades are a guarantee of quality but that equal quality is possible but not quite so easily seen with a single steel and stock removal methods.