Following the law.

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FlSwampRat

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A thread in another forum got me to thinking. (I do that from time to time.) It was about a store selling a hi cap mag (legal in that state) to someone from out of state. A state where it was not so legal.
Since, as stated elsewhere, I manage a pawn shop that does sell guns and accessories on the internet as well as in store, and the amount of visitors and temporary residents that come to Florida, I decided to do some checking on the Mag Cap laws via the Giffords Law Center website.
The more I look into laws on firearms the more I realize just how crazy the patchwork whole is. After the Parkland Fla shooting the legal age was raised to 21 for all firearms purchases. I agree with this for several reasons that I don't intend to go into on this thread. That being said it cleared up one nutty wrinkle that had previously existed. I could sell someone 19 years of age a box of 9mm rounds to use in his carbine, but I couldn't sell him the same box of ammo if he intended to use it in a handgun.
The arbitrary way that cap limits are chosen is head scratching. Limits of 10, 15 and 20 rounds are listed. Then things get weird. Hawaii says 10 rounds for mags that can be used in a pistol. NY limits to 10, BUT you can only load 7 unless you're a a range.
Ohio has no law restricting large capacity magazines. However, Ohio includes within the definition of “[a]utomatic firearm” any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.
We have always required a DL or State ID to be presented when purchasing firearms, magazines and ammo. We generally don't ship to states like NJ, NY, Ca, Ct, etc., but the way some laws are being changed it's a struggle to ship to the others.
I hasten to add that all internet sales of anything are handled through our corporate sales department who always checks the laws on shipping before processing the purchase. I was checking these things for my own information
I don't have to check the laws of the receiving state before shipping things personally.
 
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Ohio has no law restricting large capacity magazines. However, Ohio includes within the definition of “[a]utomatic firearm” any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.

That provision was actually repealed several years ago, surprisingly common sense prevailed.

It used to be worse, before most states adopted pre-emption laws, when you could unwittingly break the law by travelling from one city/county to another.
 
That provision was actually repealed several years ago, surprisingly common sense prevailed.
I'm gobsmacked!
All kidding aside, I pulled that off of the Giffords site today. As in cut and pasted. Shows how hard it is to find accurate up date information.
 
The 7-round load limit is gone in NYS. I was one of the plaintiffs in the original case.
jr, how long ago was this? The Giffords Law page is copyright 2018, I tried to find as updated a page as possible. This goes to show that when you're trying to do the right thing and doing research, it's very hard to get accurate up to date information. I'm sure that referencing a webpage is no valid legal defense.
"But the webpage said...."
Here's the link to the page from which I got that information.
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-...ries/large-capacity-magazines-state-by-state/
 
I live in Dupage County, IL but very close to Cook County. Many online retailers won't ship to us as they can't keep track of the changing laws here. It tends to get frustrating for everyone.
 
jr, how long ago was this? The Giffords Law page is copyright 2018, I tried to find as updated a page as possible. This goes to show that when you're trying to do the right thing and doing research, it's very hard to get accurate up to date information. I'm sure that referencing a webpage is no valid legal defense.
"But the webpage said...."
Here's the link to the page from which I got that information.
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-...ries/large-capacity-magazines-state-by-state/

It isn't really reasonable to think that a gun control group would be eager to let people know when gun restrictions are eliminated or relaxed. Hell, they commonly make up "facts" to begin with.

Here's the best place to go for gun law references: http://handgunlaw.us/
 
jr, how long ago was this? The Giffords Law page is copyright 2018, I tried to find as updated a page as possible. This goes to show that when you're trying to do the right thing and doing research, it's very hard to get accurate up to date information. I'm sure that referencing a webpage is no valid legal defense.
"But the webpage said...."
Here's the link to the page from which I got that information.
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-...ries/large-capacity-magazines-state-by-state/

Hasn't been enforced since December 31st, 2013. It actually never went into effect. A little history:

NY Shooter's Committee for Political Education brought suit in 2013, in which I was an individual plaintiff. This case was incorporated into NYSRPA vs Cuomo. The case was argued in US District Court for the Western District of New York, and cross-appealed to the US Court Of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit.

The court ruling as it stood October 19th, 2015 is here:

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1716013.html
 
Our federal system makes things very difficult for any business that does business in multiple States.
Exports are even worse. The exporter is held responsible for what his overseas customer does with the product. There are products an American company can export to Canada but not to, for example, Australia. My employer subscribed to a service with links to a variety of federal watch lists that included entities convicted of environmental violations as well as suspected terrorists. The only customers not checked against these lists were those who walk-ins who paid cash. Fortune 500 companies can afford staff dedicated to understanding and complying with trade agreements and restrictions. It's hell for a small business where the foreign sales staff may be two or three people. What's ironic is that the Commerce Department spends a great deal of money encouraging exports while other federal departments make it difficult.
 
Yes, I agree, following the law isn't always easy. It's especailly challenging when you rely on inaccurate information. For example, in a post above, someone wrote "Ohio has no law restricting large capacity magazines...." That law, OHR 2923.11 was changed on March 23, 2015. Its now almost four years later, and if you look for information pertaining to Ohio laws and magazine capacity, you will still turn up lots and lots of articles that are now irrelevant. It seems as if rahter than providing better access to more accurate information, the internet has only increased the circulation speed and life expectancy of inaccurate information.
 
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Yes the massive amount of differences from state to state interfere with interstate commerce on this product which does not net a very large profit at the final retail level.
Too many different requirements make it challenging to create products for a larger market that is what everyone wants, which increases the cost to the consumer.
Beyond the other issues that decided the case part of why New York setting a different mag limit like 7 was so damaging is because New York City has a population of 8 million people.
California is a state of nearly 40 million people.
People may not like California's laws, but it was still a big enough market to bother making unique designs for.
New York or even smaller states however will find manufacturers far less likely to start making unique designs to comply with only a small market.
 
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Is it necessary to check ID and state of residence when selling magazines within a state as with firearms? Or is it merely the responsibility of the purchaser to possess legal magazines in their state of residence?
 
I purchased a couple 10 rounders when I was driving through Harrisburg PA last fall. Big box store. No ID needed for the mags. I wanted them for my Mossberg MVP. I have had problems when I try to buy muzzle breaks etc over the internet. In NY threaded muzzle on a semi will land you in jail. Thread muzzle on a bolt gun, lever, or single shot perfectly legal.
 
I live in Massachusetts,a 10 round mag limit state, except for Pre ban , meaning pre 9/1994 high capacity mags are legal to posess and sell.
I have purchased some used high capacity mags out of state, but I have to be 100% certain that they are pre 1994. It takes some research to do it correctly.
If I were in the gun /gun parts business, It would drive me insane trying to figure out all the states differing gun laws. Good luck
 
[QUOTE="Zoogster, post: 11084578, member: 37461
Beyond the other issues that decided the case part of why New York setting a different mag limit like 7 was so damaging is because New York is a state of 8 million people.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm..NYC by itself has a population of over 8 million, the state total is over 19.5 million.
 
Yes I meant New York City as it was creating its own unique laws as a region as well.
Smaller regions creating antigun laws which are unique effectively disarm parts of the population by creating markets too small to cater to.

Large markets sometimes have products shift for them, and the economy of scales keeps them priced competitively.
But the smaller the market for each product the greater the cost the unique production results in.
So having many different laws at the local and regional level starts to interfere with healthy interstate commerce regulating the Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. Which is not supposed to be infringed on.
 
I'm gobsmacked!
All kidding aside, I pulled that off of the Giffords site today. As in cut and pasted. Shows how hard it is to find accurate up date information.
It's actually not all that hard. A good rule of thumb is that if a website, such as the Gifford site that you mention, doesn't provide a link the the government website where you can look up the actual law in question, that website is to be considered useless for getting legal information.
 
After the Parkland Fla shooting the legal age was raised to 21 for all firearms purchases. I agree with this for several reasons that I don't intend to go into on this thread

And that's where I stop reading this garbage. An 18, 19, or 20 year old is an adult in the eyes of the law. They can live independently, are expected to pay taxes on income, must register for the draft, and take up arms in defense of the nation- either voluntarily or (hypothetically, should the need ever arise) involuntarily- and sacrifice their lives if called upon. But they shouldn't be able to own arms until 21? An independent citizen aged 18-20 should have fewer rights to protect themselves?

Argue that there should be mandatory training or that someone has to demonstrate safe handling (neither of which I endorse) but to simply say that you agree with 21 as an age to purchase firearms is just as arbitrary as the variations in magazine capacity limits your thread is about.
 
And that's where I stop reading this garbage. An 18, 19, or 20 year old is an adult in the eyes of the law.
So my reasons, which have no relation to whether someone has good judgement or is a legal adult at 18 is garbage because you don't agree with it and your mind is closed to the fact that there might be other reasons for my being good with the 21 year old purchasing change?
Okay, so I'll go into them:
1 when someone turns 18 their juvenile record is sort of sealed. They could have been the biggest juvenile delinquent on the planet and suddenly hit 18 and are legally born again. Can get a gun. Can get ammo. Can kill 17 of their classmates because when the background check is run there is nothing in the system that will flag them.
2 As explained to me by our ATF representative, under the old law, someone could buy ammo for a long gun, but not a handgun. So someone who was 19 could buy 9mm ammo for their carbine, but if they said they intended to also use it in a handgun I couldn't sell them the same box of ammo. Obviously the same for .22, .38/.357, .45 ACP, etc.
This is like not shipping to states where there are a patchwork of local laws that make gun related, but not firearms themselves, illegal here but not there across the city/county line. Easier to avoid breaking a law by not shipping to that state at all. There is another thread about this.
3 Even before this change, someone couldn't get a concealed weapon permit or buy a handgun at 18. At least in Fla. All I heard at that time was the wind in the pine trees. No one was up in arms that someone 19 couldn't buy a handgun. All it changed was that long guns were added to the "not til 21" list of things.
Now, bearing in mind all of the things an 18 year old can do, remember that it's 21 to buy alcohol in most places.
Funny thing there. In 1978 in Colorado there was 6% beer and 3.2% beer. 21+ could buy either, except on Sundays when only 3.2% could be purchased legally. 18-21 could buy only 3.2% ever. Here's the headscratcher... According to the gentleman from the State of Colorado giving us Military Police at Fort Carson a DUI class (we administered the state driving laws as well as the UCMJ) the law was old and the definitions for each percentage were spreads. And they overlapped. In 1978 Coors quality control was very good. They just made everything in the overlap percentage. What was in a can marked 3.2% and one not marked anything (6%) was chemically identical as it came from the same vat. Was this true? <shrug> It's what we were taught in class. Oddly, too, both alcohol and firearms are the purview of ATF.
There is a move afoot to ban tobacco and e-cigs for anyone 18-21. So, when considering that there are lots of things legally available to 18 year olds, please bear in mind that not everything is.
 
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