Forgiving Eye Relief

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ZGunner

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My father-in-law was fussing over his old Weaver scope on his deer rifle last night and I thought it would be nice to get him a better scope. He currently has an old 4x32 Weaver that has seen better days. It is cloudy and the eye relief is pretty unforgiving. He also said he'd like to have something with better light transmission for those dusk shots.

I guess what I'm looking for is a 3-9x50 with a good eye box to get on target quickly even from odd shooting positions that also has a bright (as it can be), clear picture in waning light. Price is only thing that will hamper me as I don't have a lot to spend. Just for conversation sake I'd like to keep it under $250.

Any suggestions are welcome.
 
Leupold seems to have pretty forgiving eye relief across the board. Vortex however does not. All of the sub PST series Vortex's I've owned/tried have a very narrow space between full picture and total blackout. Move your head a tiny bit, image is gone. My Vortex PST scopes however have great eye relief.
 
Ill second the bushnell AND Leupold recommendations.

One comment i will make is If your dad is used ro and comfortable with the rifle topped with a 4x32, you may want to go with either a 2-7x32 or a 3-9x40. 18mms of glass, adds quite a bit of weight to even the lightest scopes. It also moves the balance of the rifle higher which i do notice when swinging my guns.

Were it me and i had the money to burn id probably get a leupold vx-2 (or perhaps the VXR, except its a 30mm tube which will require new rings) 2-7x33.

If a cheaper option is desired, then id go with the Trophy 3-9x40


....anyone that knows me will be surprised i didnt recommend a Nikon, but the eye box is the one thing ive found isnt spectacular on them.
Its not bad, but ive found leupolds more forgiving in that regards, and the bushnell is cheaper but equal.
 
Leupold vx-1s are going for under 140 dollars on eBay they are a great deal and great value. Vx-2s are under your budget too. I am a loopy fan but I'd say vortex has great following and worth looking at.
 
"The eye relief property should not be confused with the exit pupil width of an instrument: that is best described as the width of the cone of light that is available to the viewer at the exact eye relief distance. An exit pupil larger than the observer's pupil wastes some light, but allows for some fumbling in side-to-side movement without vignetting or clipping. Conversely, an exit pupil smaller than the eye's pupil will have all of its available light used, but since it cannot tolerate much side-to-side error in eye alignment, will often result in a vignetted or clipped image.

The exit pupil width of say, a binocular, can be calculated as the objective diameter divided by the magnification, and gives the width of the exit cone of light in the same dimensions as the objective. For example, a 10 × 42 binocular has a 4.2 mm wide exit cone, and fairly comfortable for general use, whereas doubling the magnification with a zoom feature to 20 × results in a much more critical 2.1 mm exit cone.

300px-Exitpupil.png
Optics showing eye relief and exit pupil
1 Real image 2 Field diaphragm 3 Eye relief
4 Exit pupil
Eye relief distance can be particularly important for eyeglass wearers and shooters. The eye of an eyeglass wearer is typically further from the eyepiece so needs a longer eye relief in order to still see the entire field of view. A simple practical test as to whether or not spectacles limit the field of view can be conducted by viewing first without spectacles and then again with them. Ideally there should be no difference in the field.

For a shooter, eye relief is also a safety consideration. If the eye relief of a telescopic sight is too short, leaving the eye close to the sight, the firearm's recoil can force the optic to strike the skin around the shooter's eye, leaving a cut. This is frequently called the "idiot cut" due to the obvious and long-lasting nature of such a mistake. Typical eye relief distances for telescopic sights are often between one and four inches (25 to 100 mm), as opposed to the much shorter 15 to 17 mm for typical binoculars. The exit pupil widths in rifle sights are designed to be larger than the eye's pupil, to allow for a range of motion without vignetting."

The above from wikipedia. One of the scope manufacturers had an ad campaign (many) years ago that summed all this up as the "optics triangle".

"In discussing of optics, there must have a basic understanding of the "compromise solution" that goes into engineering any optical gun sight. This is what we call the Optical Triangle, since any scope represents a compromise point between three competing values: magnification, eye relief and field of view."

That from https://www.jprifles.com/1.6.3.php

A scope with a 'forgiving eye relief', that is, one where the exit pupil exceeds the shooters pupil diameter, will of necessity have low magnification. As magnification increases, exit pupil decreases, and eye relief becomes more exact, and closer to the scope, unless objective lens size increases. This is why high power variable scopes have large objective lenses. At the low end , they have larger exit pupils and more forgiving eye relief, and at the high end, those are smaller, but keep the scope usable by keeping the eye relief from coming too close to the scope. (usually a minimum of 3")

I recommend the VX-1, Nikon Prostaff, or Bushnell Elite or Trophy, in that order.
 
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Thats a great post. I never knew there was a correlation between exit pupil and eye relief, tho it make sense once its explained.
 
"...It is cloudy..." It's damaged and needs replacing anyway. What rifle and cartridge?
"...x50..." Too big for a deer rifle. Requires much higher rings that usually puts the shooter's head too high. A 40mm front lens will not and will still be better at dawn and dusk.
"...frequently called the "idiot cut"..." More frequently called 'Weatherby eye brow'. Eye relief depends more on the cartridge and its recoil than anything else. Current Weaver scopes are running around 4". Good enough, when the scope is mounted correctly, for anything.
 
Eye relief isn't exactly the same as the "eye box", although they are related. Eye relief can be measured, eye box cannot. Scopes can have as little as somewhat less than 3" of eye relief up to near 5". Personally I like 4"+, but can deal with 3.5"ish if the scope is good quality. But many scopes with 4-5" of eye relief still require the eye to be "EXACTLY the right distance from the rear of the scope and directly behind it in order to see through it. Other scopes are more forgiving. The eye relief may be 4", but scopes with a forgiving eye box may have 1/2" or more in either direction where you can still use the scope. Other scopes may be unusable if your eye is not exactly 4" from the rear. This is a huge help with quick snap shots or if bundled up in heavy clothing which moves the rifle and scope farther from your eye.

Greater exit pupil is more forgiving than less since the eye doesn't have to be perfectly aligned with the scope. Low magnification helps for 2 reasons. #1 you get a larger exit pupil, #2, a greater FOV.

A 50mm objective is a waste of money at your price point. There are some very good $200-$250 3-9X40 scopes. A 3-9X50 of the same quality is $100-$150 more expensive. A $200 3-9X40 scope is a far better scope than a $250 3-9X50 scope. And the larger objective will only have a greater usable exit pupil when set on 8X or 9X. Below 8X and it transmits more light than the human eye can use. Above 9X it doesn't transmit any more than a 40mm scope does on 8X.

Generally speaking Leupold is the most forgiving, and I've been quite impressed with the Burris FF-II. In fact I'm not sure a FF-II @ under $200 isn't a better scope than a VX-1 and pretty darn close to a $300 VX-2. Once you get into $400+ scopes there are some others that are quite good. But at your budget I'd look at Burris.

https://www.amazon.com/Burris-40mm-...753&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=burris+FF-II+3-9X40
 
Eye relief isn't exactly the same as the "eye box", although they are related. Eye relief can be measured, eye box cannot. Scopes can have as little as somewhat less than 3" of eye relief up to near 5". Personally I like 4"+, but can deal with 3.5"ish if the scope is good quality. But many scopes with 4-5" of eye relief still require the eye to be "EXACTLY the right distance from the rear of the scope and directly behind it in order to see through it. Other scopes are more forgiving. The eye relief may be 4", but scopes with a forgiving eye box may have 1/2" or more in either direction where you can still use the scope. Other scopes may be unusable if your eye is not exactly 4" from the rear. This is a huge help with quick snap shots or if bundled up in heavy clothing which moves the rifle and scope farther from your eye.

Greater exit pupil is more forgiving than less since the eye doesn't have to be perfectly aligned with the scope. Low magnification helps for 2 reasons. #1 you get a larger exit pupil, #2, a greater FOV.

A 50mm objective is a waste of money at your price point. There are some very good $200-$250 3-9X40 scopes. A 3-9X50 of the same quality is $100-$150 more expensive. A $200 3-9X40 scope is a far better scope than a $250 3-9X50 scope. And the larger objective will only have a greater usable exit pupil when set on 8X or 9X. Below 8X and it transmits more light than the human eye can use. Above 9X it doesn't transmit any more than a 40mm scope does on 8X.

Generally speaking Leupold is the most forgiving, and I've been quite impressed with the Burris FF-II. In fact I'm not sure a FF-II @ under $200 isn't a better scope than a VX-1 and pretty darn close to a $300 VX-2. Once you get into $400+ scopes there are some others that are quite good. But at your budget I'd look at Burris.

https://www.amazon.com/Burris-40mm-...753&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=burris+FF-II+3-9X40
Vx-1 3-9 are running 137ish vx-2s under 200 and now I see Vx-3i 3.5-10 $289 Leupold is turning into best deal going maybe trying to cut down on Vortex taking away more of their business
 
A 40mm front lens will not and will still be better at dawn and dusk.
Read my post, then explain the physics behind that statement. The only way that could possibly be true is comparing a 3-9x50 BSA to a 3-9x40 Schmidt & Bender or such, where lens and coating quality is so overwhelmingly better. All other things in two scopes being roughly equal, a 50mm will have a bigger exit pupil, thus more light transmission. I do agree a 40mm objective will probably be fine for his needs, but it will not be 'better at dawn and dusk' unless he wants to pay for premium lenses and coatings in the Swarovski, S&B and upper Zeiss range.

"...It is cloudy..." It's damaged and needs replacing anyway. What rifle and cartridge?
We've already established this. As for the question, you rarely repost when you post in this style...

"...frequently called the "idiot cut"..."
More frequently called 'Weatherby eye brow'
:thumbup: And many other names. My favorite is "the Red Badge of Ignorance"
 
If you want a specific suggestion with the limited details given I'd suggest the Leupold VX-1 2-7 X 33 Shotgun/Muzzleloader model with heavy duplex reticle.

The why; if your father is currently using a 4X the power range will offer him a bit more magnification if needed or a wider field of view. It's light weight at under 10 oz. and offers nearly 4" of eye relief throughout its power range. You don't give his age, but I'm guessing your father is closer to 60 than 40 with eyes that may benefit from a thicker reticle especially if hunting in the woods. I've seen this model under $190 which leaves room for new rings if they need freshening up as well.
 
love my leupold vx2 2-7 i was shooting some pretty harsh loads from a 45-70 lever action and it did well and seems the get on target fast. I also haven't had an issue with Nikon but i hate that bdc crap.
 
I am guessing the rifle in question is not equipped for it, but one thing to strongly consider is a scout scope.

If you want to check one out cheaply, I suggest the NcStar Pistolero scope. Had one on my SK, 9x19mm AR pistol, Marlin 1894, and now my Marlin 336 and I love everything about it.
 
"...It is cloudy..." It's damaged and needs replacing anyway. What rifle and cartridge?
It's a Stevens 110e in .243 Win.

I figured a 50mm objective would give him enough light for his 66 year old eyes. It may be too big with the current rings, but I don't think it would be by much. I like the idea of the 2-7, keep the weight down and a better FOV with the ability to zoom in. I've looked through Leupolds in the store but never on a rifle outside. They seem to be very good scopes. I'll also have to check out the Bushnell Trophy.

I have several Nikon ProStaff 3-9x40s that he looked through and didn't like, but his likes and dislikes change by the day. He may decide tomorrow that he's fine with that scope or he's never hunting again... you never can tell.

I know my terminology may not be correct, I tried my best to convey what I was looking for and got some really good answers. I appreciate everyone's input!
 
if you father had bought a leupold(I know they cost more back then) instead of the weaver, he would have been able to sent it back and get it repaired or replaced free. how do I know you might ask and I will tell you, a 4x leupold 7/8"tubed scope bought in the 50,s with broken cross hair and was sent in and was replaced with a FX-11 4x33mm # 58530 totally free. I don,t think their is a scope maker today who would-will do that with one of their scopes over 50 years old, that maybe passed thru 4-5 different owners with no warrenty card ever being sent in. please feel free to prove me wrong. yes I like leupolds and their customer service. eastbank.
 

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I know this is out of your budget ... But, look at Leupolds VX-R scopes. I'm very impressed with the eye relief, brightness and eye box of the VX-R 2x7/33 I'm not suggesting that you buy one. Just look through one and compare. It sets a good baseline on what you want and what you can give away ...

We have a local shop that caters to LE, they have Leupold, Vortex, and others on demo stocks. I went in and looked carefully through all the scopes. The Leupold was the absolute clear winner in my eyes.

The the optional red-dot (fire sight) is just icing on the cake for dusk and hog hunting :D
 
I have a 2.5-10x40 prostaff on my muzzleloader. The extra .5 power drop is nice when deer hunting. Only downside is bdc reticle. Optics planet has specs so you can compare exit pupil and eye relief of the scopes in your price range. Spending a few minutes tweaking scope placement with rifle in field position is priceless.
 
I appreciate all the answers folks. Unfortunately I must report that my father-in-law decided to just remove the scope. He will be using the irons and guessing where he is aiming, I suppose. I just hope if he sees a deer it's under the stand. I love the man as much as I could someone who isn't blood, but there is no reasoning with or pleasing him.

I however, will be starting a build soon. I look to do a Rem 700 whose chambering is undetermined but will be blued in a wood stock topped with a gloss Leupold. I will use some of these suggestions for that. Thank you again.
 
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