Fortune 500 Company gun policy. How do you interpret?

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buenhec

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I work for a fortune 500 company. The gun policy states no guns allowed on company property or vehicles unless expressly permitted by law. I do have a CCW. I would say that is enough to be within policy. There are no "no guns allowed" signs anywhere.

How do you interpret this? I have had several employees ask me if they can store their gun in their lockers at work because they ride motorcycles. I give them a copy of the policy and tell them I dont want to know about it.
 
By applying for and receiving a concealed permit you have been given express written consent and authorization by the state you live in to carry a weapon into all the places not forbidden by said state.
 
Well, although I disagree with the policy..I'd say you'll get disciplined if you bring a gun in the facility.
That's my interpretation of what I consider a clear policy.
In your car is another thing though.

Your post indicates you're either Human Resources or a Supervisor. If so, I think you're answer was a wise one. i also think you'll have to clarify company policy sooner or later, unfortunately. Someone will force an issue that shouldn't be forced.
 
The gun policy states no guns allowed on company property or vehicles unless expressly permitted by law.

I'd say they're within the law. I might make a mention of keeping the guns CONCEALED though, if you get reports that other employees are uncomfortable.
 
"By applying for and receiving a concealed permit you have been given express written consent and authorization by the state you live in to carry a weapon into all the places not forbidden by said state."

True...but when you work for a company you are bound by their rules of employment. Simply because you have something that states you can carry a weapon does not override their rules of employment...if that were the case, the constitution would be everyones crutch to tell off their boss with no punishment (freedom of speech) in which case they would be falling under insubordination...which is a fireable offense. If you don't wan't to follow our rules of employment...no problem...you dont have to work here.

It is however a "policy"...big difference between "policy" and "procedure". My guess is NO.
 
this is interesting to me, because the small company i work for is in the process of reviewing its policy manual. i am on the policy review committee, and i've been trying to decide whether and how much to challenge the current weapons policy.

texas law going into effect 09/01 will preempt employers from prohibiting CHL holders from storing guns locked in their vehicles. so i want them to recognize that.

on top of that, the current policy also states that knives are prohibited, though many employees [myself included] carry one and use it in our work every single day. the policy is simply never enforced.

i've been thinking of trying to get the knives thing struck entirely and saying that guns are prohibited except as provided by texas state law. but i'm not sure how much i really want to push.


back to your deal...sorry...
as i read the policy, it seems to defer to state laws [such as the texas one that will soon take effect]. as a fortune 500 company, i'm guessing they have facilities in multiple states. some of those states might preempt the employer from disarming employees in the parking lot [and thus to and from work]. so simply having a CHL might not be enough. but i could also see an interpretation that would allow it.

that's a tricky one. i think your response is good for now, but i agree that the policy will eventually need to be clarified.
 
The gun policy states no guns allowed on company property or vehicles unless expressly permitted by law.

That is difficult to interpret.

I work for a big company, too. Top 20 of the Fortune 500. Companies like this have big time legal departments and a real aversion to liability lawsuits. If a guy violates the gun policy, even inadvertently, he better be prepared to lose his source of income.

You might want to get a clarification of the policy with regard to CCW permits, etc.
 
texas law going into effect 09/01 will preempt employers from prohibiting CHL holders from storing guns locked in their vehicles. so i want them to recognize that.
That bill did not get out of the House and is therefore not law and is not going into effect period.

It was heavily opposed by big businesses and business associations and didn't really receive the support it should have from the gun community

http://www.tsrapac.com/

CHL Employee Rights – Allow CHLs to Have Handguns In Locked Private Vehicles In Parking Areas~SB 534 by Senator Glenn Hegar (R-Katy)/Rep. Patrick Rose

(D-Dripping Springs)

Individuals go through the rigorous background check, training and application process to obtain CHL so that they can protect themselves in a lawful, responsible manner. However, if an employer’s “No Firearms” policy extends beyond the physical workplace to include parking lots and garages, employees who are CHLs are effectively prohibited from protecting themselves during the workweek – they may only keep their firearms in their vehicles if they park them off company property and on public roadways, which may be unsafe or unavailable.

Proposed legislation would give CHLs the right to transport and store their handgun in locked vehicles on company property and would also provide immunity from liability for employers.

This legislation was modeled after current Southwest Airlines policy.

Passed in the Senate
Finally placed on the House Calendar for May 22.
Died on the House Calendar on May 22 with 170 other bills that were left pending at midnight!
 
The gun policy states no guns allowed on company property or vehicles unless expressly permitted by law.

That will probably cover the police, but not you.

jm
 
buenhec said:
How do you interpret this? I have had several employees ask me if they can store their gun in their lockers at work because they ride motorcycles. I give them a copy of the policy and tell them I dont want to know about it.
If you are a supervisor, that is a tough one. I do not know of any Fortune 500 companies that give a rat’s behind about RKBA. Even though the policy seems, at least to me, to allow for possession of firearms on company property in a manner permitted by “law”, I would not want to be a test case for that policy. I think your current approach is not half bad. If you ask for clarification, you could stir up a hornets nest. I guess my general advice is to be careful and cya.
 
Passed in the Senate
Finally placed on the House Calendar for May 22.
Died on the House Calendar on May 22 with 170 other bills that were left pending at midnight!

Oh it's worse than that. Those Nitwits on the Calendars Committee sat on the darn thing for A WHOLE MONTH. Then they passed it onto the whole House on the LAST DAY it procedurally could be considered. Add to that they put it WAY DOWN on the general calendar. It never had a chance.

I have a buddy who lives in one of the Committee Member's districts who wrote the <non-High Road name deleted> Committee Member and got back a lovely email that they had nothing to do with the death of the bill... they just ran out of time. <non-High Road expletive deleted!>

I guess it's slightly better than the game they've played with it before where the House passes one bill and he Senate passes another and they die never completing conference. They make sure all the games are played so that everyone can say, "we voted for it," while it dies in committee somewhere and the business leaders are happy and keep the $$$$ flowing.

It's really just a few fat cat power brokers holding this up. If it had made it to the floor, it would have passed.

I think I’m madder about the way they flaunt their contempt for us than I was about the Libs taking power positions in D.C. last Nov.

I guess once amnesty is passed into law and signed by President Jorge, I’ll have something else to be mad at.
 
That bill did not get out of the House and is therefore not law and is not going into effect period.

oops. thanks for the heads-up, JohnKSa. it looked so promising just a few weeks ago that i thought it was a done deal. sorry for the misinformation.

damn...that really throws a wrench in my plan. i wonder if i should still try to push for CHL rights or just leave it alone.
 
you could have 15 CHLs and not be permitted to have your weapon in the refinery where I used to be employed. "Common sense". You could keep it in your car in the parking lot. If you were a supervisor who was allowed to drive inside the plant, no gun allowed and searches were commonplace. Security dept. played no favorites, you could be a plant supervisor and they would still search your car, gun found, immediate dismissal.In other settings I personally don't believe in in gun free zones.So much so I will not shop at any establishment that does not recognize my right to carry. Since I live in Texas that list is very short[1] Fry's Electronics.
 
Public vs. private property

The CCW laws apply to public property. You don't need a permit, necessarily, to carry concealed on private property with the owners consent, provided that the private property is not open to the public. For instance, you could carry concealed on private property such as your neighbors house or land. The state sets up rules on where you can't carry in public (sports arenas, courthouses, etc.)

However a land owner can also prohibit guns on his private property. His only remedy is an action in trespass and to have you removed however.

A business owner can prohibit guns. If you carry at work you risk getting fired for violating company policy and that will make it harder for you to get another job. When I worked in civilian jobs I always carried and never got caught and never had a problem. Now that I'm in the military I (oddly enough) cannot carry or even risk brining a gun in my vehicle because I would be arrested.
 
If a Fortune 500 Company is publicly traded..and most all are..they are owned by the public. Would that exempt them from being "private" if they are publicly held?

Might be splitting hairs here, however, legally it might be an important point if you needed to defend yourself.
 
They are in multiple states with multiple firearms laws. They're policy would indicate that firearms are banned on company property unless the state has a law that says an employer may not ban firearms to CCW holders. Not automatically permit Carry Permit holders to have them on company property, but only when the state has a law saying the employer may not ban them. If you want to know you should ask the senior HR director which it is.
 
If a Fortune 500 Company is publicly traded..and most all are..they are owned by the public. Would that exempt them from being "private" if they are publicly held?

FirstInLine and I jointly own this property. It is private property owned by 2 people. Expand that ownership by several thousand, and there is not a difference. That is my opinion and interpretation and worth about as much as youpaid to read it. ;)

Pops
 
Publically traded companies are still, in a sense, private property. They have a board of directors that sets policies and one policy may be maintaining a certain dress code to work there and another policy may be attendance policy.
 
what it says, what it means...

no guns allowed on company property or vehicles unless expressly permitted by law

This says to me - you may not have gun on company property, but if you are expressly permitted by law you may have them in a company vehicle. There was a VA SC case that had a similar exception clause and it was held to operate only on the last condition. The courts do not always follow common english language understanding, particularly if they "define" a term within a statute. That said...

I believe the policy is sufficiently ambiguous as to potentially provide a "first offense out" as others here have clearly shown. Courts often consider what a reasonable person of average intelligence would make of a situation, and I believe that this language is one of those situations. Others here have echoed that a permit is exactly that - permission from the state to break the general prohibition in the law. I see a few courses of action here as a supervisor or mgr.

1: Leave it be. The status quo; no written communication. If discovered, it coudl lead to an employees termination. If this happens, ethically, OP is at least partially responsible by tacitly approving or at least not erring on the side of saying no, that's not allowed. Were I OP, I would be a little concerned about legal implications of this action if one of the carriers was found out and fired. IOW, could I be sued and held liable. More important than that, I believe it would be wrong to hang someone out like that.

2: Of the motos who carry, if there is a person with a genuine, provable need, and were I OP, I would possibly consider approaching company management & HR - I have a *highly valued* employee who was involved <example> in a court case as a prosecution witness </example> they have had death threats lodged against them and have requested that the XYZ zipper corp. grant a clarification on this weapons policy and that they be granted explicit permission to be armed to & from work / the office (perhaps secure storage in the office). Basically the goal would be to get a 'case by case' agreement to respect the employees rights.

3: Use the permit is an expressed exception doctrine and tell the employees that this is what you think. This could be totally worthless unless a fired employee goes to court. A very expensive proposition and it could put OP in jeopardy for their job as well.

I believe it was leadcounsel that said the permit applies to public property. That is true, but that is not the end of the permit's umbrella of legal protection. As previously discussed the legislature created a general prohibition carrying a concealed weapon. A permit grants permission from the state to violate that law in a similar manner as 'leo in performance of their sworn duties'. IOW, you won't be prosecuted for it. All of the shall issue laws I'm familiar with make some sort of exception to this by "except where prohibited by law" or similar. In VA it says "shall not authorize the possession of a concealed handgun ... where prohibited by the owner of private property". Statutes are read very narrowly and this prohibition in particular exempts all but the owner from the act of prohibiting, and by implication allows the permit's umbrella of legal protection on private property where it is NOT prohibited explicitly. Thus, if you carry on to property that's posted, the permit is no longer valid and you're breaking the law. but, if you carry on to private property that is not posted or prohibited explicitly, you are not breaking (Virginia's) law.
IANALATINLA,YMMV, HTH
 
what it can't mean

no guns allowed on company property or vehicles unless expressly permitted by law
This says to me - you may not have gun on company property, but if you are expressly permitted by law you may have them in a company vehicle. There was a VA SC case that had a similar exception clause and it was held to operate only on the last condition.
? But that would mean no guns allowed on company property, even IF EXPRESSLY permitted by law. :confused: Which is nonsense. The company has no authority to override the law. “Permitted by law”, by definition, overrides any company policy. That’s what makes a law a law.
 
My opinion, and just that; if you need to carry at work, deep conceal and never get caught or talk about it. I would just pass out the policy (and have them initial a copy of it for you to file).

I would bet my last dime that any HR Director or VP will clarify that you can't have a weapon on the property if you ask. If the issue was never clarrified, and you went and did a 'silly' thing like reading the policy and encouraging others to do so, everyone might have a blessed leg to stand on if the issue ever comes up for 'clarrification'.

Just my thought.
 
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