"Freedom from Want" and "Freedom from Fear"

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Cosmoline

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I've been thinking about FDR's famous "four freedoms" lately and how they relate to the RKBA. I realize that to an older generation of Americans FDR's fatherly voice pretty much rendered the four freedoms coequal to the Bill of Rights. But while freedom of expression and freedom of religion are in the First, there is no such thing as "Freedom from Want" or "Freedom from Fear" in the BOR.

But there's no denying that these ideas have become a central part of modern liberalism both here and abroad. The idea is that the state has a duty to guarantee that its subjects are fed, clothed and kept safe. While this SOUNDS like a fine idea, in practice it is inherently opposed to the Founder's notion of sublime Liberty and the RKBA. A state that has a duty to feed you, cloth you and keep you safe is standing in loco parentis. You are a child of the state, and as a child your rights can be limited as needed. Indeed your right to keep and bear arms can be limited in order to give you "freedom from fear."

I think we need to take a long, hard look at FDR and his ideas if we want to understand where the anti-gun movement comes from. After all it started in many respects with his administration. He took the tools created by Prohibition and used them to expand federal law enforcement even further, to include a de facto ban on a wide array of firearms. And of course the internationalists who were a central part of FDR's power base made sure the Four Freedoms were a basic principle behind the UN. They did not use the Bill of Rights, which tells you something about where their loyalties lay. And even today we see the concept that people have "freedom from want" inherent in the actions and policies of the UN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms

What gets lost in this, but what our Founders knew very well, was that Liberty demands the possibility of disaster. You can't be really free unless you're free to fail and be left cold, jobless and hungry in a shed without power, phone or prospects. If there's always a government to bail you out, then you're never going to be more than a subject of that government. And you'll become so used to taking handouts that you forget what real freedom is. Likewise, the "freedom from fear" concept runs counter to Liberty. Liberty requires that each of us be prepared to take responsibility for our own safety. Any fear we personally have is our own problem. A government that can tuck you in and night and protect you is a government that no longer treats you as a citizen to respect but as a subject to sneer at. This is one result of having a huge standing army and reyling on a small cadre of professional soldiers to defend us.
 
At my first glance at FDR's "Four Freedoms", I'd come away with the impression he used Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion to intone that there are such freedoms as a "Freedom from fear" and "Freedom from want". He gets you going with the well established first two freedoms he lists to get you in an "accepting mood" and you sort of instinctively follow along and "accept" the supposed existence of the other two by rote.

The very use of the preposition "from" when used with the noun "freedom" to connect "fear" or "want" to it tries to make "freedom" a verb. Freedom is a noun. "From fear" or "from want" is adverbial. A person can be FREE from fear or want, but to describe the same as a right or privilege, being free, an exemption from obligation, or an unrestricted use just doesn't cut it.

Just as you can have a Freedom of Speech or a Freedom of Religion, you could grammatically and logically have a Freedom of Fear and/or a Freedom of Want - being free to fear or free to want whatever you choose.

I think it's ironic in how he used his supposed "Freedom from Fear" to lobby for international disarmament and then charge full speed ahead with the Manhattan Project, resulting in the most devastating weapon of all!

Cosmoline said:
What gets lost in this, but what our Founders knew very well, was that Liberty demands the possibility of disaster. You can't be really free unless you're free to fail and be left cold, jobless and hungry in a shed without power, phone or prospects. If there's always a government to bail you out, then you're never going to be more than a subject of that government. And you'll become so used to taking handouts that you forget what real freedom is. Likewise, the "freedom from fear" concept runs counter to Liberty. Liberty requires that each of us be prepared to take responsibility for our own safety. Any fear we personally have is our own problem. A government that can tuck you in and night and protect you is a government that no longer treats you as a citizen to respect but as a subject to sneer at. This is one result of having a huge standing army and reyling on a small cadre of professional soldiers to defend us.

So very true. Along with being treated like children comes much resentment - enough resentment to cause the "children" to strike out at the parent. It'll build, fester, and boil - until it explodes. Take away the pride, take away the hope, and you've got a very dangerous crowd on your hands. Any government wishing to long endure needs to embrace the freedoms of the people who created that government, or the People will cast it off for a government that will embrace those freedoms.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
 
If there's always a government to bail you out, then you're never going to be more than a subject of that government.

Nothing is more subjugating than a warm bed on a cold night.

It helps keep everyone in their place.
 
Gun owners who use the context in which the Second Amendment was written as a way to defend their right to keep and bear arms assume a duty to know and understand the contexts of other historical documents they discuss.

The Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, only ignited what became World War II. Its elements were in process long before then, and among the more prominent of those elements were Japanese and German invasions of other countries, whose inhabitants were considered subhuman by their conquerors. Those people were murdered en masse and the survivors were robbed, brutalized, and enslaved.

In that context of recent catastrophic events and many years in watching German and Japan dominate other countries Franklin Delano Roosevelt was required to meet his obligation as President to deliver the annual State of the Union on January 6, 1941.

This country was frightened and disoriented. It was still struggling with the Great Depression and with isolationism. Then suddenly and dramatically it had to confront the attack on Pearl Harbor, the declarations of war that immediately followed, and national mobilization--all within just the three and one-half weeks proceeding the annual State of the Union required of every U.S. President every January.

Roosevelt had to explain to the entire world the immediate past and the immediate future with a vision that integrated them in some understandable way while giving his country hope in the prospect that basic human rights would triumph over tyranny dedicated to the destruction of them all. What has become known as Roosevelt's "Four Freedoms Speech" was really his State of the Union address.

It's a distortion to discuss those four points out of context, and the distortion is multiplied when Roosevelt's own explanations are set aside:

The first is freedom of speech and expression--everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way--everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want--which, translated into universal terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants-everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear--which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor--anywhere in the world.

Roosevelt's "Four Freedoms" derive not from the U.S. Constitution but from its Declaration of Independence, the document that articulated for the world the principles on which this country was founded:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

What FDR did was appropriate and essential, well within the fundamental context of this country, and his accomplishment was nothing less than magnificent.

I've boldfaced his explanation of the fourth freedom. In context Roosevelt clearly addressed the situation that left the United States and other countries unprepared and vulnerable to German and Japanese militarism. Germany had ignored the restrictions on its rearmament after World War I; Japan had amassed a vast armory that it had to use.

What Roosevelt confronted was the problem of rogue nations intent on establishing "a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor--anywhere in the world." Those were the actual problems in the world.

Roosevelt clearly was not talking about individuals: he was talking about nations. It's bizarre to hold FDR responsible in 1941 for the manipulations and distortions introduced by a Twenty-First Century United Nations. One might as well hold the founders of this country responsible for those who assert that the Second Amendment grants a collective rather than an individual right. The parallel is solid and useful.

I wouldn't care to argue that repression, bigotry, starvation, and domination are rights that should be cherished and defended, but I've seen that position argued here before. The arguments are unpersuasive. The incontrovertible evidence of their fallacy is that nobody who argues for such rights ever chooses to exercise them. None of those people choose to keep silent, to be persecuted, to starve to death, or to be enslaved.
 
There's only one way I know to ensure that you are free from want or fear, and that's to chamber a round, put the muzzle to your head, and pull the trigger.

Want and fear? Hell, those are what keep every living organism going from day to day.

Socialism seems to be simply a longing for premature death.
 
You can't have both "Freedom from want" and "Freedom from fear" at the same time because if the government is going to GIVE you something (to take care of the Freedom from want bit) they have to TAKE it from someone else, so as soon as you have anything you become a target for the taking and thus have no freedom from fear.


Its one of those naive statements like saying you have a "right to food" ... well you can't have a right where it creates an obligation on another, therefore if you have a right to food, you obligate someone to give you the food ... so in that case you end up justifying making slaves of the farmers.
 
To add to that...

If the government takes from EVERYONE to give to EVERYONE, then not only is there nothing left to take, so want can no longer be satisfied, but also everyone lives in fear.

See the USSR for an example of bread lines and fear.
 
Roosevelt's "Four Freedoms" derive not from the U.S. Constitution but from its Declaration of Independence,

Do they? I don't remember anything in the Declaration about disarming everybody to guarantee "world peace." Indeed as I remember it the Declaration was an act of high treason telling the legitimate head of state to take a hike. An aggressive, illegal act which caused a war to break out. Just the sort of thing FDR and the UN founded on his "freedoms" cannot abide.

As far as rights, this is what it had to say:

they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Life, Liberty and the right to pursue your own Happiness. Liberty includes a right to fail miserably without government interference. And to succeed without government interference. Just as the sublime can only come from a mix of beauty and terror, liberty can only come from risk and the potential to fail. Jefferson and company knew this well. They did not seek to free us from fear or want, but to enable us to risk both fear and want in pursuit of greater goals. A life without fear or want of any kind is not life. And it's certainly not the kind of living that built this nation. Though increasingly it seems to be the sort of couch spud existence that our nation seeks to embrace.

Roosevelt clearly was not talking about individuals: he was talking about nations.

I'd believe that more if forced disarming of American citizens wasn't a key element of the "New Deal." Besides, a nation of rifleman can certainly invade its neighbor like we invaded Canada and Mexico. Roosevelt's twisted vision can only be brought to reality if you disarm them AND if you have some greater, international force to keep the peace and ensure everyone is equally powerless. It's all part of the same plan, and while FDR was no Stalin he was still pretty bad mojo. How anyone got the idea he "saved the nation" I'll never know. WWII got us out of the depression, and FDR's gross incompetence almost lost that war in the Pacific before it started.
 
Actually if you look hard at FDR, you have to laugh. Compared to his cousin, TR... real joke.

#1). The convention/Democrats was deadlocked between Champ Clark, KS, and AL Smith, NY. Smith was a Catholic and no one thought a Catholic could win. Clark was not quite big enough outside the farm states...

Well I remember Will Rogers, "I so not belong to an organized political party... I am a Democrat..."

Of course everyone knew that Hoover or anyone else who ran Republican with all the unemployment had no chance at all. The Democrat nomination was almost a "shoe in" for election.

The compromise was Mr. Franklin D. Roosevelt. He had been governor of New York state which with New York City running things meant almost nothing.

Walt Lippman? "Mr. Roosevelt seems to be a very nice man of no particular qualifications..."

People who wanted a willing puppet joined forces behind FDR... and took turns holding him on their lap and sticking their hands in his back and working his mouth... Some were real communists (communism was ill understood) and NAZI sympathizers... (Lindberg was "tight" with Georing and his air force, very modern, and admired the Gestapo.) Father Coughlin, a Catholic priest, was preaching in agreement with the statements of Hitler (we did not have a full understanding of Herr H, YET)... about Jewish "sins." (Jews are not without "sin." Even the Jewish religion says that. Then there is that renegade Jew named Jesus...)

It is fascinating that the "allies" opposed "facism" by forming the largest "facist" organization the world has ever seen, the allied armies. [Armies are "facist" by definition. No time to vote when the shooting starts.] And opposed "national socialism" for the chosen German favored Aryans by extending "socialism" to everyone... GI bill, health insurance, etc. Of course the backward Japanese were still trying to "push" an emperor/empire... silly geese.

You can laugh or cry, but it is something and will not be reversed any time soon. luck to us all.
 
Robert Hairless: Your analysis is incorrect. The Four Freedoms speech was given in January, 1941. The attack on Pearl Harbor occurred on December 7, 1941. The United States was not at war when the speech was given. FDR used his State of Union address to prepare us for the war which he knew would come, not to console us over the attack.
 
...Germany had ignored the restrictions on its rearmament after World War I; Japan had amassed a vast armory that it had to use.

What Roosevelt confronted was the problem of rogue nations intent on establishing "a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor--anywhere in the world." Those were the actual problems in the world. ...

Sounds familiar.

As far as freedom from "want". I like the old Churchill line: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery." -Winston Churchill-

Freedom from "Want?":confused: I "Want" a bigger TV and I "Want" to eat in a fine restaurant every night. I guess the term "want" meant something to people who were truly destitute and starving in the 1930s.

The problem is...FDR introduced this idea that the US Government is now REQUIRED to erase WANT from all its members. The burden of paying for such a scheme is placed on its most successful members.

Where does the definition of "freedom" from "Want" stop? Three guaranteed meals of bread, milk and a little meat once in a while probably seemed like heaven to many in the 1930s. Today, our latest so-called "health crisis" is that our poor people are too fat!

The slippery slope of want.

If you as a successful person has something a less succesful member of your society wants - you should pitch in and help him get one too. If you have two of them - you should share. If you have three - you are hoarding.
 
Positive rights formulation

What made the Four Freedoms such a departure lies in "Freedom from Want." Freedom of speech and of religion are traditional expressions of rights inherent to human beings. Freedom from fear is meaningless in practical terms, so I choose to ignore it.

Freedom from want, though, is an expression of a so-called "positive" right: the right of someone to be provided something, independent of his or her own effort. Such a thing runs counter to a Lockean understanding of natural rights, of course, and was practically unheard of in American political discourse prior to the rise of Progressivism.

Basically, Freedom from Want signaled that henceforth people (at least some people) would be owed a living. I won't go so far as to say Here All Our Troubles Began(TM), but it sure didn't help none.
 
Robert Hairless: Your analysis is incorrect. The Four Freedoms speech was given in January, 1941. The attack on Pearl Harbor occurred on December 7, 1941. The United States was not at war when the speech was given. FDR used his State of Union address to prepare us for the war which he knew would come, not to console us over the attack.

You're correct on all those points. I was trying to multitask and did a lousy job of it even though I'd reported the dates properly in my message. My apologies for that confusion. I'll stand by the rest of what I said.

Interesting to see so many people here demonizing FDR. It's even more interesting to see that not one of them has exercised the contrary "rights" for which they argue. Instead they speak freely, believe as they wish, refuse to be poor and starving, and seem to behave fearlessly. Those are "rights" they reserve for other people while arguing that those "rights" are the cornerstone of this country. But people who have experienced fear, repression, poverty, tyranny, and starvation seem to consider them highly overrated.

My guess (purely a guess) is that the grandparents or greatgrandparents of at least some people arguing in favor of want understood what "freedom from want" means and would be horrified to see their descendants argue that they should have been unable to feed themselves or their children. We forget our origins. The honor is in remembering them.

As for the readings of American history and politics supposed to advance such arguments: a little truth, a little fantasy, but in the main a considerable amount of barely controlled rage and frustration.
 
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