Getting a gun safe or are there other alternative options?

[CMcDermott]

By the time you can get into your gun safe after a fire, your guns will be a mass of rust.

Safes use a gypsum board lining for fire protection, when it starts to get hot, the water contained in the gypsum is released as steam. This keeps the temperature from rising until all of the water is boiled out of the gypsum. It also means the inside of the safe becomes a literal steam bath, okay for paper documents written in waterproof inks; very bad for guns, even stainless steel guns. If you want to store guns in a fireproof safe, make sure they are wrapped in the corrosion-resistant paper, then sealed in plastic. The plastic will protect them from the steam, even if semi-melted; the paper keeps the plastic from melting to the gun.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Mr. CMcDermott has raised a point that is pretty much an old wives tale. Yes, almost all of the Residential Security Container type 'safes' do indeed insulate with gypsum wall board material. Now anybody who's had much experience with gypsum wall board knows that if you get it wet, it crumbles. Frequently the only thing that maintains it's integrity is the paper backing, after it's been wet.

Now then, no manufacturer that I know of, puts wet gypsum material in their safe as insulation. Doing so would raise all kinds of problems that would cost more to work around, than using drywall - dry. Not the least of which would be the expansion of the water to steam in an enclosed enviroment, between the inner & outer safe walls. The word bomb comes to mind.

So, if the container does use "firerock", or any other buzz-word synomym for gypsum, that can absorb moisture out of the atmosphere, the container probably either does not have a sealed inner wall, or has a mounting hole in the top or bottom.

Those of you who have 'safes', look on the top & see if there is a 1.5" plug in the top skin. This is where it hung from the hook as it came down the assembly line. If not, check the bottom. Some hang from the floor when they're built, & then mount to the shipping pallet via the same hole. A responsible dealer will plug the hole upon selling it to you, to maintain fire resistance. However, not all plugging systems will prevent moisture being absorbed into the gypsum.

If the exterior seals are good, then the only way the gypsum should be able to absorb moisture is via the atmosphere transfer that takes place every time you open the safe door, through a non-sealed interior construction. Most of that problem can be controlled through the use of dessicant paks or a 'golden rod', or both. Kinda depends on the area in which you live.

True safes, that meet the U.L. fire ratings, are typically insulated with concrete. Yup, it's poured wet, of course, and must be dried before the seal is put in place during construction. However, cured concrete is remarkably stable during large temperature swings. A properly cured & constructed safe will not, repeat, NOT explode, bulge, steam, or otherwise ruin your firearms because it goes through a fully-involved structure fire. The Underwriter's Lab's wouldn't certify the construction if it did that sort of thing during their test.

A typical 60" tall RSC, such as Frontier, Browning, Liberty, etc., will usually weigh in at around 750 lbs. A concrete lined, 'B' construction 1-hour fire safe will come over the scales at something like 1400 lbs.

900F

 

[Black Snowman]

Man room? You mean the Testosteroom? I'm upgrading mine to include a variety of power tools as well as the guns

As for safes, I can't bring myself to spend the money on a safe when I could put it tward a gun, but I make sure I'm well insured.

Don't worry about kids so much. The few that visit I've taken the time to gun-proof. They get sick of me talking about them and want to do anything else but mess with the guns

 

[pytron]

Feedthehogs said:

It took them 3 hours to find the wall and that was beacuse they were looking for it and the only reason they found it was it sounded hollow when knocked on.
They made recomendations and the wall sounds as solid as any wall in the house.

If you don't mind me asking, what recommendations did they give you? Be general if you don't want to give out specifics. I have been pondering this problem of hollow-sounding areas and I haven't come up with anything good. I have a number of spots that would be good for hiding stuff but it'd be nice to make it as difficult to find as possible.

-Pytron

 

[joab]

The Man Room

Took awhile but I found an article and pretty good definition

I'm upgrading mine to include a variety of power tools

That would be a work shop. We get one of those too

 

[Librarian]

Good lord man, if those aren't true safes, what would it take to be considered a true safe, and could you point us in the direction of some?

some rating info, pasted below; the title 'safe' seems to be associated with some certification of burglary resistance and/or fire resistance.

Net Working Time - This is the UL term for testing time which is spent trying to break into a safe using tools such as diamond grinding wheels, high-speed drills with pressure applying devices, or common hand tools such as hammers, chisels, saws, and carbide-tip drills. If a safe has been rated with a 30-minute net working time, (TL30), the rating certifies that the safe successfully withstood a full 30 minutes of attack time with a range of tools.

Theft resistant - This rating means the safe provides a combination lock and minimal theft protection.

Residential Security Container rating (RSC) - This UL rating is based on testing conducted for a net working time of five minutes, on all sides, with a range of tools.
........this is the rating for most "gun safes"..........

TL-15 rating - The TL-15 rating means the safe has been tested for a net working time of 15 minutes using high speed drills, saws and other sophisticated penetrating equipment.

TL-30 rating - A product carrying the TL-30 security label has been tested for a net working time of 30 minutes with the same types of tools mentioned above.

TL-30 x 6 - The TL-30 (30-minute) test is conducted on all six (6) sides of the safe.

TRTL-30 - The TRTL rating designates a safe which successfully resisted 30 minutes of net working time with a torch and a range of tools which might include high speed drills and saws with carbide bits, pry bars, and other impact devices.

.... there are also TRTL-60 and TXTL-60X6, which includes resistance to explosives on all 6 sides....

UL manufacturing follow-up - This exclusive service assures that the customer is buying a unit that is exactly like the one that successfully passed UL testing.

Fire Ratings

Impact test - The UL impact test calls for the safe to be heated to 1550 degrees for 30 minutes (1638 degrees for a 2-hour fire rated safe) then dropped onto concrete rubble from a height of 30 feet. The safe is then turned upside down and reheated for another 30 minutes (45 minutes for a 2-hour fire rated safe). During this process, it must maintain its integrity and protect all contents in order to pass the UL impact test.

Explosion hazard test - All UL fire-rated safes must undergo this test, during which the unit is inserted into a pre-heated 2000 degree oven. If the safe is not constructed properly, the rapid heating will likely cause an explosion.

FR - Fire resistant, unrated insulated safe - This product is awaiting UL approval.

Class 350 1/2-hour fire rating - During this test, the safe is heated for one-half hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees. Because paper will begin to char at approximately 400 degrees, the unit being tested must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees during heat-up and cool-down testing in order to earn its rating.

Class 350 1-hour fire rating - To earn this rating, the safe is heated for one hour to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees, then put through the cool-down test. During this time the safe must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees.

Cool-down test - This procedure is a key part of UL's fire testing procedures. After a one- or two-hour fire rating test, the safe is left in the oven for cool-down time with the heat turned off. Because of the intensive heat of one- and two-hour tests, the temperature inside the safe will continue to rise for up to one hour after the oven is turned off. To pass UL testing, the safe's interior temperature may not exceed 350 degrees at any time during heat-up or cool-down procedures.

Class 350 1-hour fire & impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 1-hour fire testing (see above).

Class 350 2-hour fire rating - The safe is heated for two hours to reach an exterior temperature of 1550 degrees and must maintain an interior temperature of less than 350 degrees to earn this rating. Class 350 2-hour rating and impact label - The safe has passed both UL impact testing and Class 350 2-hour fire testing (see above).

UL Follow-up - This service allows a UL inspector to drop in unannounced and at any time to check that all units at a manufacturing site are being built under the same construction methods used for previously tested units.

Do a Google search for "TL-15 safe" and you'll get back a lot of hits.

Another place I saw said that the testers were given the blueprints of the safe, and the time is only the actual working time - down tools to think or change a bit or blade, clock stops.

 

[roo_ster]

FWIW, for a jewelry store to get business insurance, the store owner needs a TL-30 safe.

A 6' tall TL-30 safe appropriate for storing guns in weighs in excess of 1000 lbs, generally around 1500-1700 lbs.

 

[Blue Line]

I may have the cheapest alternative

You all just send me your guns to keep in my safe for you and any time you want to shoot them just come on by and pick em' up and go to the range. Bring em' back and I'll even clean them for ya'all. The only cost will be letting me shoot them when your not around some. Rent free - what better alternative could you ask for, especially for you out of staters